"Qualified" to teach?

[terence]

If there is no need to spin or turn heavily then there are more body position and body support options.

I think you missed my point.. I was referencing the discussion about "frame " that had been questioned on a general level. Of course one would not pitch/lean in ,on a spinning action.

It begs the question.. do Latinos maintain the body alignments ,no matter the exercise.

And by the by.." ya cant teach your grandmother how to suck eggs" .

 

[terence]

Someone pointed out earlier, many big schools have the 'names' teach the advanced classes not the beginners. Why - given I get the general sense that most people agree the beginning stages are very important?

An excellent question.

Having coached for many moons, I ALWAYS insisted on a beginners class in the schedule .

I really dont have a good answer to their choices .

 

[olamalam]

As Olamalam is less sensitive about being used as an example in a discussion, and as we know each other he knows some things really bug me, he is less likely to get annoyed by what I say.

Who told you that? You're in my black list now :nope:

I agree with him that less people would dance if only the very best taught salsa, because there would be less teachers,

Not only because of that but also some people may not want to attend serious salsa classes from day 1. Maybe they just want to give it a try, meet a girl/guy from the club etc. But after sometime, bammm, getting good salsa itself might be the main reason to attend classes. Then s/he might look for better instruction. Instead of loosing him/her from day 1, why not to give sometime to get the bug inside?

My brother attended Frankie's body movement workshop in istanbul salsa congress. Then I called him and asked, who was it. He asked me why I recommended his class! He even didn't talk at all but only rolled his shoulders for an hour!!! But know he is asking me good youtube videos for body isolations. I sent him Oliver Pineda's DVD.

but I also agree with me that only the best should teach (yes, you have to start teaching to become a good teacher - paradox).

Let me paraphrase my sentence.
Everybody can teach if they like but if someone wants to get good at something, they'd better attend the best (and most affordable according to their budget) instructor's classes as early as possible. (this is for sure, I cant disagree)

 

[QbnSalsa]

I feel very fortunate to live in the salsa-rich area of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (N.C.) where there are opportunities to dance literally every night of the week. You can access a number of excellent instructors who teach LA on1, Cuban (on1, on2), NY on2 (including the Cobo Bros. and Norberto "Betto" Herrera of Mambo Dinamico) and rueda.

This makes for a fairly large pool of dancers with differing styles and varied abilities. I have danced with people who have taught at congresses all over the world and with people FROM all over the world (Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, England, India, South Africa, Russia, Japan, China, to name a few). Sure there are some cliques, but for the most part the community is very welcoming to all dancers and those with more knowledge/experience seem to want to assist those who ask for it.

I am spoiled by the level of dancing and dance instruction in this area, so I guess my expectation of what an "instructor" should be is pretty high in terms of experience, knowledge, and abilities--not to mention the ability to actually teach. But as long as a person sharing dancing with someone else represents their curriculum vitae accurately I think the experience can be rewarding for both the giver and the receiver.

 

[olamalam]

I feel very fortunate to live in the salsa-rich area of Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (N.C.) where there are opportunities to dance literally every night of the week. You can access a number of excellent instructors who teach LA on1, Cuban (on1, on2), NY on2 (including the Cobo Bros. and Norberto "Betto" Herrera of Mambo Dinamico) and rueda.

Ahhh so you must be dancing with beautiful Erin regularly She owes me at least 10 dances because we couldn't dance in Marakkesh due to her injury

 

[azzey]

I have danced with people who have taught at congresses all over the world and with people FROM all over the world (Canada, Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, England, India, South Africa, Russia, Japan, China, to name a few).

Welcome to SF! We have similar experiences and list of countries. Eastern europeans seems to be popular at the moment.

 

[olamalam]

And I did my first group lesson yesterday!
it was a free on2 timing class, we were 6 people. They were so interested and in the end I could see that they were happy with my teaching. It made sense to all of them after 45 mins :banana:

I gave them imaginary elastic rubber and asked them to stretch-release (slow-quick) with tumbao pattern. stretch to sides when hearing double tap and release on the slap. same exercise with body isolations. like stretch the rubber with shoulders and release. then same with basic step. then cross body and right turn. in the end they could dance on2 to a simple salsa song (a slow la33 with clear congas) with 2 moves: xbody and right turn. a comple satisfaction

 

[salsology]

Someone pointed out earlier, many big schools have the 'names' teach the advanced classes not the beginners. Why - given I get the general sense that most people agree the beginning stages are very important?

A very good question you raise, and one I've often wondered.
I think however that people that come in as beginners wouldn't know Frankie Martinez from Joe Bloggs and whoever is running the club will pull in more money having these people teach advanced and attracting int/adv dancers to their venue.

Only those good teachers running their own dance schools have the option to teach beginners and I suspect most train their own staff on how to teach beginners using their techniques. This was certainly the case at the club I used to teach beginners. We were given very specific instructions as to what was needed to be conveyed in the beginner classes.

At the end of the day those dancers that are serious about wanting to learn will end up migrating to classes with better teaches. Many of us probably started off with what we now realise were not the best teachers but we have still progressed.

 

[terence]

We were given very specific instructions as to what was needed to be conveyed in the beginner classes.

At the end of the day those dancers that are serious about wanting to learn will end up migrating to classes with better teaches.

That always depends upon " who " is giving them( the prospective class teacher ) their instruction. You may or may not, be surprised how many " teachers ?" dont know enough about foundation principles . Bad habits are passed on..

And many students never become more discerning; they tend, in many cases, to attend locations that are convenient in all manner of speaking.

 

[wildbill20056]

I'm curious to know what you believe the core ideals of tension and posture are? e.g. Obviously posture differs significantly between Cuban style and cross-body styles for example. Is that a minor difference? Or are you excluding all Cuban teachers from this discussion?

Practically all Cuban instructors I know (particularly those who are Cuban) fundamentally disagree with all cross-body instructors I know on musicality, not to mention quite a few other things.

Gee I leave the forums alone for a while and things take off

Anyhoo, in response to this I would say that I'd consider Cuban Salsa and linear/PR based Salsa sufficiently different to allow for distinction between certain basic principals such as you outline.

On the other hand I suspect that if one benefits from truly excellent instruction from instructors from either sphere, you will avoid 'bad' habits that would inhibit your progress should you seek instruction in the other.

For example: Though not trivial, altering pitch within the context of good frame and core engagement will be approached comfortable.

Attempting the same within a context of a collapsed frame with no core engagement will provide many more headaches.

 

[azzey]

Gee I leave the forums alone for a while and things take off

Anyhoo, in response to this I would say that I'd consider Cuban Salsa and linear/PR based Salsa sufficiently different to allow for distinction between certain basic principals such as you outline.

On the other hand I suspect that if one benefits from truly excellent instruction from instructors from either sphere, you will avoid 'bad' habits that would inhibit your progress should you seek instruction in the other.

For example: Though not trivial, altering pitch within the context of good frame and core engagement will be approached comfortable.

Attempting the same within a context of a collapsed frame with no core engagement will provide many more headaches.

Welcome back. I've hardly had time to be on over the last week either.

That's fair but you still didn't state what you believe the/your core ideals of tension and posture are? ( You're not getting out of it that easily :razz: )

 

[wildbill20056]

Hmmm ok let's see.

Well as I 'give it' to my beginners:

1) No collapsed frames. Engage your core and keep your back in a healthy, neutral position. Shoulders relaxed, but also down and back, not collapsed inwards.

2) No jelly-welly arms. Consider your arms as springs with medium resistance. They should never be rigid, but at the same time should resist full extension and compression.

3) Your body should act in unison, not as a collection of independent units.

I generally take the cross body lead to illustrate:

1) It is not the case that your body clears out of the way and then the arms 'push' the partner through.

Rather the change in your relative body positions creates naturally added impetus to your partner. This is created through maintance of frame (collapsed frames don't work so well), and the transmittance of this tension via your 'spring-like' arms.

Consequently a student should come through maintaining a healthy spine position and a relaxed but firm frame which uses arms as extensions, rather than flappers on the side.

 

[olamalam]

Hi Bill,

Good points.
I think a salsa instructor doesn't need to have long years of experience to be able to teach those.
A bit of reading and attending a couple of similar classes should be enough to teach those items you've listed

 

[wildbill20056]

I totally disagree.

An inexperienced dancer may feel they have a handle on such aspects.

However that does not mean they have the experience or training to recognise all the possible minor and major faults which may creep into a dancer's habits early on.

To train one's eye to pick up on such matters requires time, experience, attention and investigation.

To be a truly effective teacher a person must be approaching mastery both in their own dancing and in their observation of others' dancing.

Then there is the ability to actually teach, which Terence has spoken of, which while it may come naturally to some, certainly requires development in all. There is no substitute for time and experience in this process.

 

[olamalam]

I totally disagree.

An inexperienced dancer may feel they have a handle on such aspects.

However that does not mean they have the experience or training to recognise all the possible minor and major faults which may creep into a dancer's habits early on.

To train one's eye to pick up on such matters requires time, experience, attention and investigation.

In order to teach those aspects , for how long should a dancer be trained then?
Or "how long" might be misleading. In total, at least how many hours of instruction (instructed by qualified instructors of course) is necessary do you think to teach those aspects?

 

[wildbill20056]

Well that's a variable feast now isn't it?

It's very subjective, depending greatly on the talent, skills and attitude of the would be teacher.

However I think the responsible position would be to assume one wasn't qualified to teach until the evidence to the contrary is significant ie

I've been dancing for years, I've been deeply interested in the technical side for years, in that time I've made every effort to attune my eye and knowledge. I have checked and double checked, and triple checked anything I took for granted with recognised authorities on the subject.

---

Let me also say that this only goes when one wants to be a 'teacher' and recognised/paid as such.

If it's simply a case of 'sharing what you know' in an informal or disclaimed setting (ie I am not a qualified teacher, but Im the best thing available), then go for it

 

[terence]

In order to teach those aspects , for how long should a dancer be trained then?
Or "how long" might be misleading. In total, at least how many hours of instruction (instructed by qualified instructors of course) is necessary do you think to teach those aspects?

Each individual may have learning abilities ,that have quite a large differential in several areas .

Most people ( in the BR world.. a good yardstick ) spend MANY years perfecting their craft from a practical application.. probably never less than 10/12 yrs before sitting their first level exam. In all fairness, that does encompass 4 dances ( examined as to parts of man and lady,in techn/theory and practical ) .

I believe, if one is speaking to the ability to get up in front of a class and " spout " basic direction with numbers ( which is VERY common ) then anyone who can memorise those simplistic things,can accomplish that in short order.. BUT.. " teaching " is far more complex than rote .

Teaching, primarily, and first, is about People . All the skills one may acquire are valuless if that skill is absent.

So.. how long ?, maybe 2/3yrs of regular training in dance, and the technical aspects ,with good guidance .

 

[olamalam]

It's very subjective, depending greatly on the talent, skills and attitude of the would be teacher.

Yes.

However I think the responsible position would be to assume one wasn't qualified to teach until the evidence to the contrary is significant ie

What's the evidence then?
Number of the girls asking you if you are an instructor? or number of people telling you that you should be teaching? Yeah, too many variables

I've been dancing for years, I've been deeply interested in the technical side for years, in that time I've made every effort to attune my eye and knowledge.

Well. How many years have you spent as a cross body student with which instructors until you start teaching? (assuming you are teaching cross body salsa)

I have checked and double checked, and triple checked anything I took for granted with recognised authorities on the subject.

Same here.
I've been attending cross body (NY or LA) classes at least 3 days a week for the last 1,5 years (I'm not counting my Turkey days. hehe) with London's best instructors and more than 100 hours of workshops in festivals so far. From the very first day, I've been double checking and questioning/comparing whatever they teach. Also I've been always thinking like, "if I'm gonna teach this, how would I teach it" from the very first day since I started sharing my salsa from the very early days of my salsa life.

If it's simply a case of 'sharing what you know' in an informal or disclaimed setting (ie I am not a qualified teacher, but Im the best thing available), then go for it

Sorry my English.
Did you mean what you are doing is also "sharing what you know" or is that just an example that you can put anyone to the subject?

 

[olamalam]

I believe, if one is speaking to the ability to get up in front of a class and " spout " basic direction with numbers ( which is VERY common ) then anyone who can memorise those simplistic things,can accomplish that in short order.. BUT.. " teaching " is far more complex than rote .

Don't get me wrong, honestly I agree with you.
I'm the one who thinks that anyone should be able to teach if they want but also I'm the one who doesn't mind 3 hours of journey to be able to take private from you.

So.. how long ?, maybe 2/3yrs of regular training in dance, and the technical aspects ,with good guidance .

Thanks for the clear answer.

 

[wildbill20056]

No No Olamolam I wasn't speaking about me, personally.

These are the statements I would expect a good, qualified teacher to be able to make.

and no no.

'Sharing what you know', implies it is totally informal. For example, you might say to a group of people:

I love Salsa, I'd love to get people dancing here, but Im not a qualified teacher. So let's find someplace and have fun, and I'll show you what I know.