Protests against police violence towards black population in the U.S.

[manzanadulce]

yes and no. It is more nuanced than that.

No one denies that prejudice doesn’t exist. However its existence shouldn’t be a justification.

I agree that US has more class based inequalities than race based inequalities. That doesn’t negate the fact that based on its history there does exist systemic and institutional injustice against the blacks in the criminal justice system. The statistics cry that out loud. It also doesn’t negate the fact that historically blacks were discriminated against in certain systemic ways, e.g. being denied housing loans.

Discrimination may not be unique to the USA but how it takes place here is unique. Just as in other countries how it takes place is unique to their own history and culture. That doesn’t invalidate what is being protested or demanded in the USA currently. Not is it the first time. Civil rights in the 60s has to be fought for. The regulations coming out of that benefitted everyone.

nobody will argue that historically blacks weren't discriminated against. the point is that they aren't NOW. in fact, programs like affirmative action give blacks certain privileges OVER other races with the intent of leveling the playing field. not to mention companies scrambling to meet diversity quotas.

 

[TikiTaka]

I have lived in the US before, but it was long ago, i don't remember much. Although, from what i've heard from my hispanic friends that moved to europe from the US believe there is more racism over there compared to Europe. From my experience in Europe and Latinamerica, there is no doubt to me that discrimination is prevalent at all levels of society.

It's just quite obvious when you have a diverse social circle. The way people treat you is very different if you're in a all non-white group of friends or mostly white. Never been followed by police, got the police called on us by neighbours etc when with a white group of friends. But it has happened several times otherwise! And it's not always white people, recently a black african man thought me and my south american friends were thieves and didn't belong in a resident area where we had been invited to a party.

When people try to attribute all injustice and inequality in society to racism, i have to object, because i believe other factors are important aswell. And the people that point fingers accusing other people of racism are often not much better themselves, it just becomes virtue signalling. If someone says discrimination doesn't exist, i also have to object. I'm sorry, but it happens all the time, regardless of what you think of the extremely simplified terms as "white privilege" or your stance on affirmative action. Personally i don't know enough to have an opinion about affirmative action, but people of different ethnicities are discriminated against in different ways.

Regardless, in order to make things better, i believe the discussion needs to be about effective policies and less tribalistic behavior. Right now it seems it's difficult to have a productive discussion because if you talk about real issues, you will be met by an angry mob from either side.

 

[Offbeat]

nobody will argue that historically blacks weren't discriminated against. the point is that they aren't NOW. in fact, programs like affirmative action give blacks certain privileges OVER other races with the intent of leveling the playing field. not to mention companies scrambling to meet diversity quotas.

That is a different discussion. The historical discrimination and its effect are still persistent today. Assuming if we reach zero discrimination, the past still impacts the present in disadvantegous ways. There are very good studies that shows how denials in the past impact the wealth of the discriminated groups today. As a group in a society it is very difficult to overcome wealth gap created due to discrimination by each successive generation. There is a direct line from the past to the present as to the status of blacks as a group.

Diversity goals are necessary to boost underrepresented in the short term. Take an example of women in technology. At individual levels I don't find any one in tech discriminating against women. But I have seen friends and colleagues who are women struggle in different ways that can be termed systemic culture or processes. I will give you an simple example. Most office building set their internal temp for a six feet male of certain mass and weight. I know many women who wear sweaters or feel cold working indoors due to temp that has been set.

I think small percentage of quotas are necessary and okay. Quotas shouldn't mean undeserving get a break. It should mean equally deserving should have equal and same opportunities.

What is wrong in leveling the playing field? I don't agree that playing field should be tilted in favour of any one group. That is hard to achieve but as a principle, that is to be aimed for.

 

[Offbeat]

When people try to attribute all injustice and inequality in society to racism, i have to object, because i believe other factors are important aswell.

I never seen or heard all injustice and inequality attributed to racism. There are always a mix of factors involved. Depending on the place and time, one factor may be more prominent than others. Therefore the action has to start with trying to mitigate the prominent factors first because that will have a biggest impact in shortest time. Also the systemic and institutionalized discrimination (of whatever nature) cause more harm when there is no cultural driven discrimination (which is the most harmful if present).

 

[Offbeat]

This is one of the most stupid academic pursuits l I heard of. Not because of the news published but because how the AI machine learning works

Over 1,000 AI Experts Condemn Racist Algorithms That Claim to Predict Crime

Technologists from MIT, Harvard, and Google say research claiming to predict crime based on human faces creates a "tech-to-prison pipeline" that reinforces racist policing.

www.vice.com

University Deletes Press Release Promising ‘Bias-Free’ Criminal Detecting Algorithm

Researchers in Pennsylvania—including a former NYPD cop—are the latest to dubiously claim they can predict future crime based on a person's face.

www.vice.com

For an argument sake if we assume it is 95% accurate, what are you going to do with that information! Are you going to tag or monitor people because they will likely commit a crime? I am flabbergasted they are allowed to do such a research by the department and supervisors.

 

[AguaDulce]

Thoughts from another well respected dancer/instructor in the salsa community

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[dav7802]

nobody will argue that historically blacks weren't discriminated against. the point is that they aren't NOW. in fact, programs like affirmative action give blacks certain privileges OVER other races with the intent of leveling the playing field. not to mention companies scrambling to meet diversity quotas.

Data and numbers prove they are being discriminated against now.

 

[Offbeat]

I'm a Black mother who adopted a white baby. Here's why I carry his adoption papers.

A mother of four is speaking out about her experiences as a Black parent to a white child amid protests calling for racial justice.

www.goodmorningamerica.com

 

[bailar y tocar]

Data and numbers prove they are being discriminated against now.

nobody will argue that historically blacks weren't discriminated against. the point is that they aren't NOW. in fact, programs like affirmative action give blacks certain privileges OVER other races with the intent of leveling the playing field. not to mention companies scrambling to meet diversity quotas.

Discrimination happens at a young age and continues into early adulthood.
In my 28 year professional career as an engineer and scientist I had 0 (zero) professional co-workers who were African American.
When I worked in Biopharmaceutical equipment sales for 2 years I had 0 (zero) customers who were African American in the 30+ companies I called on.

In those 28 years there were 2 (two) managers who were African American, one was in QA the other in Business Mgt.

By contrast, lots of African co-workers who migrated to the US, got their PhDs from US universities and found jobs.

The number 0 represents a statistic when it encompasses 28 years and including the sales job, some 30+ companies.

 

[matty]

Discrimination happens at a young age and continues into early adulthood.
In my 28 year professional career as an engineer and scientist I had 0 (zero) professional co-workers who were African American.

I'm interested to know your view as to, what stage of the sequence does the discrimination happen? and who is doing the discriminating?
is this happening at the hiring stage? ie African Americans get to the job interview but never get hired?
or they never get to the interview, in fact, they didn't pursue this career option at all for economic reasons? maybe couldnt access the colleges?

By contrast, lots of African co-workers who migrated to the US, got their PhDs from US universities and found jobs.

presumably those people are black, so...why did they make it and natives didnt?
this would suggest that if prejudice exists in the system that its not about the skin color per se. that there is something else at play , right?

 

[manzanadulce]

Data and numbers prove they are being discriminated against now.

What data and what numbers?

 

[manzanadulce]

Discrimination happens at a young age and continues into early adulthood.
In my 28 year professional career as an engineer and scientist I had 0 (zero) professional co-workers who were African American.
When I worked in Biopharmaceutical equipment sales for 2 years I had 0 (zero) customers who were African American in the 30+ companies I called on.

In those 28 years there were 2 (two) managers who were African American, one was in QA the other in Business Mgt.

By contrast, lots of African co-workers who migrated to the US, got their PhDs from US universities and found jobs.

The number 0 represents a statistic when it encompasses 28 years and including the sales job, some 30+ companies.

Where are you located? In US we have about 12-13% of the population that are black. We also have had record low black unemployment during Trump's presidency. At any rate, if the company is relatively small, it would make sense that only a few blacks were employed there based off of being 12-13% of the population. Of course, in some professions blacks are over-represented (rap and r&b music, basketball, american football, olympic runners, etc. etc), and in some, they are probably under-represented due to a multitude of factors, least of which is likely to be racism. anecdotal evidence from one job, even over time, can't confirm or deny whether the lack of black employees was due to prejudice.

 

[AguaDulce]

You'll have to ask that to American.

Perhaps, this is an example

 

[TikiTaka]

I never seen or heard all injustice and inequality attributed to racism.

My bad, i meant to say some people overblow magnitude of racism and attribute it to all categories of inequality, not that all inequality is attributed to racism. Just today, i saw a post saying afroamericans die from Covid-19 at a higher rate than the national average because of racism. It seems more logical that it has to do with worse health conditions due to socioeconomic factors, which of course are explained by several different factors. Historical racism is probably an important one. Rachel Kleinfield has suggested that areas im which afroamericans faced higher rates of violence from groups such as KKK still face higher rates of violence today. Racism is still a problem today, but as long as people keep looking for simple answers it will be difficult to make progress. Sadly, this whole defund the police is probably most likely to increase violence, especially in lower socio-economic neighbourhoods. Decreased trust and hostility towards police is often a strong predictor of increased violence. US police violence is dreadful, i believe resources should definitely go into reforming the police, having higher requirements and better training to have fewer fatal outcomes etc.

 

[TikiTaka]

What data and what numbers?

Evidence of discrimination:

Ban the Box, Criminal Records, and Racial Discrimination: A Field Experiment*

Abstract. “Ban the Box” (BTB) policies restrict employers from asking about applicants’ criminal histories on job applications and are often presented as a

academic.oup.com

 

[dav7802]

Where are you located? In US we have about 12-13% of the population that are black. We also have had record low black unemployment during Trump's presidency. At any rate, if the company is relatively small, it would make sense that only a few blacks were employed there based off of being 12-13% of the population. Of course, in some professions blacks are over-represented (rap and r&b music, basketball, american football, olympic runners, etc. etc), and in some, they are probably under-represented due to a multitude of factors, least of which is likely to be racism. anecdotal evidence from one job, even over time, can't confirm or deny whether the lack of black employees was due to prejudice.

You had record low unemployment for everyone before COVID. It has little to do with Trump. It is a continuation of Obama's and the GOP Senate/House policies. Perhaps Trump's tax cuts continued what was already started but he isn't the sole reason. You point to unemployment rate being the lowest but it is still far behind the employment rate for white. Let's say the employment rate for white to blacks was 80 to 70 in 2016 and now in 2020 is 98 to 88. Did things really change? Yes, more people are working but the gap is still the same. Things would have improved if it changed to 98/94 (whites to blacks).

This is like saying poor people are making more money so everything is great. But the wealth gap keeps getting bigger. Meaning the rich are also making more money and at a greater % than the poor.

Here is a site that explains it better.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

 

[TikiTaka]

You had record low unemployment for everyone before COVID. It has little to do with Trump. It is a continuation of Obama's and the GOP Senate/House policies. Perhaps Trump's tax cuts continued what was already started but he isn't the sole reason. You point to unemployment rate being the lowest but it is still far behind the employment rate for white. Let's say the employment rate for white to blacks was 80 to 70 in 2016 and now in 2020 is 98 to 88. Did things really change? Yes, more people are working but the gap is still the same. Things would have improved if it changed to 98/94 (whites to blacks).

This is like saying poor people are making more money so everything is great. But the wealth gap keeps getting bigger. Meaning the rich are also making more money and at a greater % than the poor.

Here is a site that explains it better.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com

To be fair many of these charts are quite non-telling. In the case of the wage gap increasing, you would have to compare the wage increases to that of white households that started out at a similar income levels to that of black households. It's not so much that whites as a group are seeing large gains in income, but the richest households (which are mostly white) are seeing immense gains. These charts do not show the development in income for white households in the lower percentile of income distribution. I think i read that the income development in largely stagnating for that group, if not declining.

On the other hand, it has been proven that social mobility upwards is lower for black people compared to whites. Some of it is probably due to discrimination. I think the high incarceration rate is the biggest factor.

I have a theory that the sum of insignificant prejudice and bias will have a significant compound effect if it's widespead. Some studies have even found evidence for self-discrimination, which is probably due to being exposed to all kinds of stereotypes about one's ethnicity growing up. This can probably have a significant impact on the type of careers different ethnicities as a group tend to pursue. The latter part i don't really know, i'm just guessing.

 

[Offbeat]

I'm interested to know your view as to, what stage of the sequence does the discrimination happen? and who is doing the discriminating?
is this happening at the hiring stage? ie African Americans get to the job interview but never get hired?
or they never get to the interview, in fact, they didn't pursue this career option at all for economic reasons? maybe couldnt access the colleges?


presumably those people are black, so...why did they make it and natives didnt?
this would suggest that if prejudice exists in the system that its not about the skin color per se. that there is something else at play , right?

Again, you are seeking simple answers to difficult questions.

Let me give you a stat that has been proven a few times. Given two identical resumes, a black sounding name doesn't get selected for interview. In USA certain names are associated more with Africa-Americans. So that is implicit bias at work right there. You can look up the studies and research on that aspect.

A bigger problem are the obstacles in the opportunities for attending better schools and colleges. It is due to combination of historical discrimination, the policies that disadvantaged those with less income, systemic discrimination faced by African-Americans today based on where they live (inner cities), income levels (class), prejudiced built into the process for determining eligibility (e.g. housing loans), and myriad other small and big things.

From there then is a cultural problem within the African American community of not prizing the education. Which is a chicken and egg situation. There is a lack of access to good education and that lack of access then justifies lack of interest in education. It is becoming very hard for most Americans to access education beyond high school. For people who are coming for middle class or less it is becoming very hard to pay for the college tuition fees. For the African Americans as a group this is double whammy because as a percentage a lot of them are poor (and they are poor due to the history of what happened to them - they were never given a chance to build what is called generational wealth for last 200 years which is approximately 8 to 10 generations). On top of it when you factor in systemic bias, prejudice and discrimination it becomes a triple whammy. So the decks are stacked very high for someone coming from that background to succeed. The kids instead want to become next rap artist or the next sportsperson i.e. professional athletes. However there are so few opportunities to become either because that is very competitive. It is like every kid in the country wanting to be an Olympic athlete or a movie star. For every movie star and professional athlete there are 100 or 1000 decent paying jobs for a college graduate. In high paying fields like engineering, law, finance, healthcare you can live an upper middle class lifestyle. For some then it is boom or bust. At highschool, or college level you soon find out you are not cut for reaching the tip of the pyramid (professional athlete or musician that earns in millions). A bust without fallback means you are not able to improve your station in life.

Now add to that a volatile mix of higher crime rates, disproportionately higher incarcerations rates (during most productive years of life), lack of opportunities for upward mobility, poor social safety net. Then as an African American born and living in the inner city or poorer neighborhoids you are being asked to take the stairs while others get to take escalators or elevators (lifts).

The African immigrants who migrate to US don't have any of the above baggage. They are already self-selected in that they were able to beat their own challenges back home and move abroad for higher studies. Most African immigrants or expatriates I met in USA and Europe are usually highly educated or professional. Like any immigrant groups there are those who are in disadvantaged sections of the society. But they too don't have the baggage that the African-Americans do. Yes they too face discrimination due to skin color, but it isn't a lifetime of discrimination till they reached the American shores.

Many African-American leaders who have reached leadership position have their own stories to tell about something happening to them because of their skin color. Every single of them. I haven't yet heard from a single African-American who reached a leadership position claim they never experienced being judged because of their skin color.

Everything I wrote is simplified narrative and glossing over many complexities and nuances. There can be a counter argument for each point I mentioned. That is like looking at an individual tree and loosing the sight of the forest.


P.S. - I read @dav7802 's post after posting mine. It is two post above this and shows 25 different statistics. If you read those first, you will get many of the things I have claimed in the this post.

 

[Offbeat]

Evidence of discrimination:

Ban the Box, Criminal Records, and Racial Discrimination: A Field Experiment*

Abstract. “Ban the Box” (BTB) policies restrict employers from asking about applicants’ criminal histories on job applications and are often presented as a

academic.oup.com

Unintended consequences of good intentions. Last week I heard the interview of the lead author of that paper. In this case the unintended consequences are highlighting the bias and discrimination issues. It is an unintended natural experiment which confirms existence of bias and prejudice against the African-Americans.

 

[Offbeat]

To be fair many of these charts are quite non-telling. In the case of the wage gap increasing, you would have to compare the wage increases to that of white households that started out at a similar income levels to that of black households.

That was my first thought, but my take is slightly different than yours. I don't know how much data is skewed by top 1% or 2% of households who collectively account for 40% of the wealth in the USA I think (top 1% has wealth equal to lower 80% of the population collectively and top 10% account for 70% of the total wealth). The income disparity is also similar.

I don't think taking a starting out point at the same level will tell a complete story regarding toll of having to face discrimination and bias entire life. E.g. a wealthy black person would face more racial discrimination than his counterparts from other races belonging to poorer background. But from class inequality perspective he is privileged. We can not go down the slippery slope of pitting the class privilege against race discrimination. Both are big problems and one doesn't cancel out the other.

I think i read that the income development in largely stagnating for that group, if not declining.

Yes on the class basis it is stagnating or decreasing for everyone. On the top of that when you add bias, prejudice and discrimination, it becomes far worse. E.g. the chances of a black facing police brutality or stiffer sentences is not going to decrease because there are people other races/ethnicities who are also poor and stagnating.

There are multiple factors at work. Systemic racism is one of the prominent one is something That can't be denied.

I have a theory that the sum of insignificant prejudice and bias will have a significant compound effect if it's widespead.

Agree. Over time it compounds if not solved.

Some studies have even found evidence for self-discrimination, which is probably due to being exposed to all kinds of stereotypes about one's ethnicity growing up. This can probably have a significant impact on the type of careers different ethnicities as a group tend to pursue. The latter part i don't really know, i'm just guessing.

A whole another discussion but that is how the systemic and institutional discrimination sustains by subsuming those who are part of it.