Protests against police violence towards black population in the U.S.

[Offbeat]

A very long and interesting interview between a journalist who did his or her homework really well and a social scientist who has imparted implicit bias training to many police departments in the country.

It brings out a lot things to light. Notice how the social scientist is sticking to the science and says “I can’t confirm because I can’t measure”. This interviews demonstrates why this can be so hard problem to solve. Statistically you can notice significant differences in how the two groups are treated but there is no way to prove the cause.

The comment at the end about going to “they” end is also very interesting. I see this happening frequently when tension arises between any two groups. The tendency is to de-humanize the other group. Having police who carry this attitude or mentality is dangerous. As rightly stated recruitment of who gets chosen to be police needs to change as also what should change is which officers respond to violent crime and which ones to non-violent crime. Currently it appears to be like one size fits all.

The NYPD Paid $4.5 Million for a Bias Trainer. She Says She’s Not the Solution.

An interview with Lorie Fridell, whose company has trained hundreds of police departments, including the NYPD and Minneapolis Police Department.

slate.com

 

[Offbeat]

My point was that I don't think the terminology travels very well to other countries,

Of course it doesn’t. I don’t think anyone claims it does. That is why such subjects are so fraught. Giving a different interpretation to the terminology that is out of context from its place of use creates an impression of denial or invalidation.

The terms Black and White, are universal sounding terms, they are not really considered USA specific, however this movement has got global momentum right now, people in my country, Ireland, for example, are beginning to use this language ,that they never really used before such as "white privelige" and Black lives matter and so on. Thats how bizzarre this has become.

I can agree with you that in Irish context it would sound bizzare. I honestly don’t know much of the history of Ireland. But from little I know, I am not sure how it would apply there. Or they are using it as a support for what is happening in USA. Which means they are trying empathize is my best guess if I have to given them benefit of doubt

the unfounded assumption is, if this person doesnt characterise this stuation in exactly the same way I do, then hes "one of them" a racist apologist, or something along those lines. which is totally wrong. certainly in this case.

I don’t see how saying you are wrongh bout something should translate into being racist apologist or one of them. Isn’t that an assumption you are making on your own? Unless someone directly labels you as such for disagreeing.

first of all, you cannot label someone until you first listen to them.
Maybe not everyone who happens to have a different point of view to you belongs to 'that' group.

Here I will disagree with a nuance. If someone is clearly taking a position about excluding a certain group of people and admitting to it, how is saying that they are want to exclude is a label. Perhaps what you meant by labeling was ascribing motivation as a shorthand. Categorizing people and ascribing motivations to them are two distinct things in my mind. Can one lead to the other? Sure or maybe but without evidence or pattern that is hard to tell. People can have different motivations for taking a certain stand. But to say that stand is wrong or disagree with the stand is fair. If you (generic you) do want to take stand, then why not be willing to be counted.

It is a fact that whites in America have a history of privilege.
however,to pass judgment on an individual white person without knowing them would be inappropriate.
Just the same as passing judgment on an individual black person would

I am not sure where you are going with that. No one has said anything about an individual person. We are talking about categories and systemic issues. In this case systemic discrimination against one category of people.

and it seems like this term white privilege is used on individuals all the time.
"well, you would never understand because you are white, etc. "
I do feel this is inappropriate even in the USA, but certainly outside of it

Used on which individuals? Those who displayed an example of that through their actions? Perhaps you are asking that a behavior of an individual should not be reflected on the entire group. Fair enough. But if the group as whole has an inherent advantage, then what? For the first example a man as an individual may not discriminate against a woman or have a privilege against a woman. But men as a group do have a privilege against women in almost all spheres of life. The statistics show that.

I do subscribe to “you do not understand because you are not X”. Which is no different than a woman saying “you can not understand, what is it is to be a woman”. That is true. As a man I could empathize and and even know what a woman goes through. That is not understanding. At least in the context it said. What it means is you have not been at the receiving end of experience growing up as a girl into a woman and having to navigate the world as a female in a male dominated society”. What part of that is false? Replace woman by any other category whether gay, religion, race, the statement would hold

My view is that every person has their own story to tell and you really cannot know a person's life experience without knowing them. and all individuals have the right to tell their own story whatever it is.

Agree. And isn’t that what the whole discussion is about. We can’t invalidate someone’s story because we think differently about the terminology

Im not expecting you to concede any of these points, by the way, or even entertain them. I know you won't.

Unless you convince me in a logical fashion I don’t believe every discussion is about trying to convert someone to your own view point. We all have our blind spots and sometimes discussions can make us aware of them. At least I want to be.

 

[Offbeat]

I actually agree with this but the irony is that even among people belonging to their own RACE (i.e. lighter skinned vs darker skinned indians, lighter skinned vs darker skinned hispanics), that same prejudice exists. it's in no way unique to the US and it's arguably much less pervasive here. the US is more class obsessed than race obsessed.

yes and no. It is more nuanced than that.

No one denies that prejudice doesn’t exist. However its existence shouldn’t be a justification.

I agree that US has more class based inequalities than race based inequalities. That doesn’t negate the fact that based on its history there does exist systemic and institutional injustice against the blacks in the criminal justice system. The statistics cry that out loud. It also doesn’t negate the fact that historically blacks were discriminated against in certain systemic ways, e.g. being denied housing loans.

Discrimination may not be unique to the USA but how it takes place here is unique. Just as in other countries how it takes place is unique to their own history and culture. That doesn’t invalidate what is being protested or demanded in the USA currently. Not is it the first time. Civil rights in the 60s has to be fought for. The regulations coming out of that benefitted everyone.

 

[Offbeat]

again, well said!

passing judgment upon an entire racial group of individuals is THE definition of racism. but somehow so many people think it's ok if the people being judged are white. so, there is no room for white voices anymore? we all just have to shut up and take this abuse, even if we personally have never oppressed anyone? that is some serious "sins of our fathers" **** and it's not benefitting anyone to think this way.

Saying being white has its privileges is not passing any judgement. How is that judging anymore than saying being tall has its advantages or being born into the high class brings benefits by the virtue of birth.

 

[TikiTaka]

Saying being white has its privileges is not passing any judgement. How is that judging anymore than saying being tall has its advantages or being born into the high class brings benefits by the virtue of birth.

I mostly agree with your posts, but a lot of people, if not most, have a lot less nuanced point of view, trying to attribute white privilege to all aspects of life. When it comes to wealth, the ethnicities in the US that earn the most are asian. When it comes to life expectancy, it's topped by asians, then latinos. Besides, the life expectancy has been rising for most (if not all) ethnicities the last couple of decades, but declining among white people. If i was a white male living in a low-income neighbourhood that has been hit particularly hard by worsening economic and health conditions, i sure would not feel privileged. Bringing up these points does not invalidate the voice of others. For some reason, some people seem to think that bringing up these points means that someone supports oppression. I went to an all-white class once, where i suffered from racism on a daily basis, but i can easily say i was more privileged than a majority of them when it came to probabilities of having a good professional life, intellectual development, social life, health etc. Yet, some people have called tried to vilify me for such comments and they have never even experienced racism themselves, much less understand it!

Before you state the distinction between individual cases and the systematic phenomena. Yes, i am aware that you talk about systematic privilege and have no problem acknowledging that.

 

[matty]

I don’t see how saying you are wrong bout something should translate into being racist apologist or one of them. Isn’t that an assumption you are making on your own?

you are both completely wrong. In today's times what you write will be seen as invalidating a black person's lived experience.

to which I responded, that is because people don't listen to each other
and then it turned into

Tell me what exactly is there to listen to those who want to exclude others and deny them the rights they themselves have?

you elevated the charge in 3 sentences from simply wrong, to, all of a sudden wanting to deny people of their rights
anyways, we best not get stuck on that point

 

[matty]

Of course it doesn’t. I don’t think anyone claims it does.

the debate, on a global level, has morphed and possibly fueled by a media who have nothing better to do, but outside of the US the conversation very quickly moved to knocking statues and wanting to delete decades old comedy shows because of supposed racist reference and so on, which to me is actually a distraction from thevery real issues on the ground in the USA but the articles are being reported as though it was somehow connected. I dont think it is doing any good for the BLM message, I see more people rolling their eyes to heaven at this point every time we hear where the focus has moved to from one day to the next.

I do subscribe to “you do not understand because you are not X”. Which is no different than a woman saying “you can not understand, what is it is to be a woman”.

yea well she can't understand what it's like to be a man, where does this leave us?

it's a little like the idea of "unconscious bias" that came up a few years back. This unbelievably patronizing argument that you are biased even though you don't know you are. however, the people who made this up don't ever seem to realize that, by their own logic, they could also be guilty of it without knowing (and they often are).

I think we will never get anywhere by patronizing each other.
Its better to give people credit they deserve and respect the fact that they very often do understand.

 

[matty]

But men as a group do have a privilege against women in almost all spheres of life. The statistics show that.

the problem with statistics is that they only tell us that something is happening, they dont tell us why its happening. But people are very quick to take the statistic as unrefutable proof that their dogmatic view is correct without taking onto account all of the variables.
It also suggests, if we could just fix the numbers then we can fix the problem. (ie. forced quotas) Which is a little like treating the symptoms instead of the cause.
There is also no clear idea about when a statistical imbalance is a problem and when it isnt.
for example, most prisoners are male, most homeless are male, most suicides are male, most drug addicts and alcoholics are male. I take it these are not considered privileges.

 

[Offbeat]

I mostly agree with your posts, but a lot of people, if not most, have a lot less nuanced point of view, trying to attribute white privilege to all aspects of life. When it comes to wealth, the ethnicities in the US that earn the most are asian. When it comes to life expectancy, it's topped by asians, then latinos. Besides, the life expectancy has been rising for most (if not all) ethnicities the last couple of decades, but declining among white people. If i was a white male living in a low-income neighbourhood that has been hit particularly hard by worsening economic and health conditions, i sure would not feel privileged. Bringing up these points does not invalidate the voice of others. For some reason, some people seem to think that bringing up these points means that someone supports oppression. I went to an all-white class once, where i suffered from racism on a daily basis, but i can easily say i was more privileged than a majority of them when it came to probabilities of having a good professional life, intellectual development, social life, health etc. Yet, some people have called tried to vilify me for such comments and they have never even experienced racism themselves, much less understand it!

Before you state the distinction between individual cases and the systematic phenomena. Yes, i am aware that you talk about systematic privilege and have no problem acknowledging that.

What you are talking is real and true. I have no problems accepting that.

The decimation of American hinterland is indeed sad and a result of misplaced policies since 80s. The inequality and the opioid crisis is evidence of that. It is also a systemic issue of an economic system that has failed the masses and lack of robust safety net which yet another crisis has exposed. There are two different problems and challenges. Supporting one doesn't mean you can't support the other. Both are present and need to be addressed.

The people in the middle America have a good reason to be despondent and angry. Blaming problems on the bogeyman of immigrants or poor who need safety net is not a solution. It is scape goating in its worst form because it creates us vs them without solving the core problem. This is strictly in the USA context. The EU immigration crisis is a different issue.

The policy makers should have realised that increase in globalization meant that same work could be done cheaper elsewhere. It was inevitable. Proper policies to address its impact should have been created two decades ago. Anyways we are getting into a different discussion and a much bigger problem. Happy to discuss if it is its own thread.

 

[Offbeat]

a sudden wanting to deny people of their rights

Yes I do believe we should not deny others rights to equal opportunity and fairness. Especially when those rights don't infringe upon our rights and opportunities in anyways (affirmative action to right an historical wrong is a more nuanced topic). Invalidating a real and true experience of someone else to me is a form of denial. Just as projecting an individual experience on a group of people is also not correct. Most people are inherently good is what I believe.

 

[Offbeat]

the debate, on a global level, has morphed and possibly fueled by a media who have nothing better to do, but outside of the US the conversation very quickly moved to knocking statues and wanting to delete decades old comedy shows because of supposed racist reference and so on

Excessive pretense of righteousness or political correctness taken to absurd levels of course reeks of holier than thou and is totally misplaced. It also makes mockery of the true cause But not celebrating or not giving space to symbols of oppression in public sphere is necessary to both right a wrong and prevent it from happening again. Though history tends to repeat itself.

yea well she can't understand what it's like to be a man, where does this leave us?

Of course not. Where it still leaves us is that of the two genders, the men have been more privileged historically. For example some of the most revered educational institutes denied admissions and learning opportunities to women for a long time. The member of a non-oppressed group invalidating experience of a member of a oppressed group causes harm and can perpetuate the wrong or least see as denying the wrong. I doubt the other way round does causes harm.

it's a little like the idea of "unconscious bias" that came up a few years back. This unbelievably patronizing argument that you are biased even though you don't know you are. however, the people who made this up don't ever seem to realize that, by their own logic, they could also be guilty of it without knowing (and they often are).

I don't find that concept offensive. After all we are only human. I haven't heard any of the advocates of "unconscious bias" deny they don't have them too. The ones I heard freely admit to it. There are many things we aren't aware about ourselves. Unconscious bias is one of them. If we were all self-aware we did all be perfect human beings

I think we will never get anywhere by patronizing each other.

Agree.

 

[Offbeat]

for example, most prisoners are male, most homeless are male, most suicides are male, most drug addicts and alcoholics are male. I take it these are not considered privileges.

Except that is not a result of the women oppressing men it did be hard to argue that it is result of women as a group who are responsible for above.

Statistics and probability are poorly understood in general. That doesn't mean they are not useful tools to measure, analyse or understand. Sometimes with despite best intentions statistics can get misinterpreted.

 

[matty]

Except that is not a result of the women oppressing men it did be hard to argue that it is result of women as a group who are responsible for above.

Statistics and probability are poorly understood in general. That doesn't mean they are not useful tools to measure, analyse or understand. Sometimes with despite best intentions statistics can get misinterpreted.

well, it doesn't have to be a result of direct oppression from women in order to be a valid argument.
you say the world is male-dominated, but it isn't working out so well for a lot of males.
not all scenarios in which women are are underrepresented in the workforce are cases of men oppressing women either, that is the point. There are many variables to take into account.

 

[AguaDulce]

My heart goes out to hard working, law abiding folks like this man who have been victims of the protests

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=909339359492520

 

[dav7802]

My heart goes out to hard working, law abiding folks like this man who have been victims of the protests

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=909339359492520

This is from 1992 LA riots. Perhaps find a current example.

 

[AguaDulce]

This is from 1992 LA riots. Perhaps find a current example.

It is but people experienced the same thing in 2020. I feel bad for those folks. These same types of protests have been going on for years and people destroy their communities and businesses.

This black retired officer actually gave his life trying to protect a business from the looters this year

A Retired Black Police Officer Was Shot Dead Guarding A Shop From Looters

“You killed a man over some TVs,” yelled a man who recorded the death on Facebook Live. “That’s somebody’s granddaddy.”

www.buzzfeednews.com

 

[bailar y tocar]

When you frame it as “class privilege” like above and state that Black or White is about the class, here is why it goes against what is currently happening in the USA:

I will add a statement from the black Republican US Senator from South Carolina who is preparing legislation for the US Senate (watered down to be ineffective):
"I was stopped by police and given a warning that I should turn on my turn signal sooner before making a lane change" The senator even said he was stopped for driving while black.

This happens all the time. I have seen it many times myself. A black person is driving their car exactly at speed limit with a police car following them to try and find a violation. Meanwhile I am blowing past them at above the speed limit but below the "white driver" enforcement limit.

 

[AguaDulce]

Looks like everything will be rebranded as not to offend anyone

Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben are going away. Are these mascots next?

Corporate mascots with racist origins have been dropping like flies over the last two days, with food brands like Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben's, Mrs. Butterworth's and Cream of Wheat announcing marketing revamps following anti-racist protests over George Floyd's killing.

edition.cnn.com

 

[matty]

This happens all the time. I have seen it many times myself. A black person is driving their car exactly at speed limit with a police car following them to try and find a violation. Meanwhile I am blowing past them at above the speed limit but below the "white driver" enforcement limit.

That is shocking.

 

[Smejmoon]

That is shocking.

I don't think it's easy as a white male visitor to see amount of racism in USA. It was a taboo topic, is it still? But you can see segregation, you can see how people cluster according to race. There are some things white people are not allowed to do in the states, that black are, but that list is probably short.

I can see and feel racism easier when I go to Africa or Asia, when it's directed against me.