more about salsa perverts

[antigone]

This is another "forgive me clave, for I have sinned" post (seriously, admins, consider making it a separate section ). And sorry if it's long a whiny, but the result requires a lot of exposition.
I went dancing Saturday ngith, and danced a lot with a very good friend, who happens to be a great dancer, but a bit on the "dirty dancing" side. He never crosses the line of inappropriateness, though, and everything he does is part of the salsa movement and music. He decided that it would be fun to hand me off to some friends of his - which was fun, though after having 5 different partners within a span of a 15 minute song (no, not a rueda), I felt like I might need a new professional title. Next, he got asked by some stranger to hand me off, so he did. The guy could barely do a basic, but apparently wanted to copy my friend's style, and ended up dropping me on a dip. I gave him some polite stern words, and thought I was off the hook. But my friend grabbed me again a few songs later, and handed me off to the same guy. The guy didn't try to dip me again, but instead decided to just dance really close, pressed up against me, and licked my ear (no salsa steps were involved). I impulsively pushed him as far away as possible (I think he fell off the dance floor), and stormed off, slapping my friend's face as I went by. Now, if I had a few extra seconds to compose myself, I wouldn't have slapped anyone, and not caused a scene in the middle of a crowded club, so that's the forgive me clave part. And I'm pretty sure no one saw what the guy did (my friend and his buddies didn't), so they just thought I'm some crazy girl in red pants who hits people.
The incident seriously upset me, especially since I've never had a guy go that far on the dance floor. So I've thought about it and come to a few conclusions:
1. The guy cannot be properly called a salsa pervert, since he doesn't actually dance salsa.
2. He saw me and my friend dancing salsa moves and styling with sexual overtones and decided that this is the major element of salsa, rather than the actual steps and technique.
3. He probably represents the majority of the guys who stand around the dance floor drinking their beers and staring at dancers all night.
4. I've got to be even more selective in who I dance with, even if it means offending people by saying no, and refusing to be handed off to strangers.
5. Hands are not for hitting!

 

[irishgirl]

he licked your ear, i'd have slapped him too!

 

[sweavo]

Well, you can take the pacifist view if you like, but I think you can look on this one as you simply gave your friend a reflection of his actions. Although sometimes we can be ashamed afterwards and think of alternative actions and worry about whether we did the best thing, I think what happened was simply an honest reaction to a situation you shouldn't have been put in. I'm sure you'll patch things up and when your friend hears about the ear licking he'll come around to your point of view.

Sometimes making a scene is the best thing. When people talk about the incident it will give the ear licking story a chance to get aired and spread the news about this dodgy guy.

 

[vata07]

i don't think you did anything wrong..its crazy how some guys just don't get it. you said no one saw what this idiot did so maybe they might misunderstand what exactly took place. hopefully your "image" won't be affected and guys will still ask you to dance.

 

[noobster]

omg he licked your ear?!!!!! Bleargh! That definitely wins the most-nauseating-salsa-story-of-the-year award. You totally should have slapped him.

 

[Jambo]

I think I would have been on a slapping frenzy after the dip incident :shock:

But licking your ear........ewwwwww!!

 

[darcitananda]

omg, what a night! ear lick, ewwwww. how completely bizarre.

i'm actually glad the salsa pervert topic came up again, because i've been confused about when sexiness/closeness crosses the line into pervdom (and read a bunch of threads on here). i think i understand now. last weekend for a moment i was convinced i danced with ALL the salsa perverts in San Francisco (and i wasn't even ovulating!) but on second thought, none of them put their hands anywhere they shouldn't be, so i think it was just normal dancing, but closer than i am accustomed to, with the exception of one guy who licked his lips the entire time, but even then, maybe he just had dry lips?

my normal intuition just seems to be way off, or in need of re-calibration. i felt like last weekend there was like a salsa perv club, and they were saying to each other "hey that girl likes pervs, so go ask her to dance" .

soo, if they don't grope me, don't put their head in my chest, and don't lick my ear, they're probably not a perv??? i'm more confused than ever...

anyway, sorry for your ear, and your friend deserved that smack!

 

[azzey]

Next, he got asked by some stranger to hand me off, so he did. The guy could barely do a basic, but apparently wanted to copy my friend's style, and ended up dropping me on a dip. I gave him some polite stern words, and thought I was off the hook.

I'm sorry to hear that, that's the risk you take when dancing with an unknown and you did the right thing.

But my friend grabbed me again a few songs later, and handed me off to the same guy.

Why do you think he did that? Do you think the guy asked him again? But what I don't understand is why you would accept when you know he's dangerous?

The guy didn't try to dip me again, but instead decided to just dance really close, pressed up against me, and licked my ear (no salsa steps were involved). I impulsively pushed him as far away as possible (I think he fell off the dance floor), and stormed off, slapping my friend's face as I went by.

Ewww.. you did the right thing but what I don't understand is why you slapped your friend and not the guy who licked you?? I mean do you think your friend was somehow responsible for the guys bad behaviour?

I often get asked by unknown guys (who I think may be sleazy) to hand off a friend but I leave it up to the girl to decide whether she wants to accept. Its never happened but I would find it rather bizarre behaviour if she later slapped me for some bad behaviour the guy did. Women are strange creatures indeed!

Now, if I had a few extra seconds to compose myself, I wouldn't have slapped anyone, and not caused a scene in the middle of a crowded club, so that's the forgive me clave part.

To be clear I do think it deserved a slap, just the wrong person got slapped.

The incident seriously upset me, especially since I've never had a guy go that far on the dance floor. So I've thought about it and come to a few conclusions:

1. The guy cannot be properly called a salsa pervert, since he doesn't actually dance salsa.

2. He saw me and my friend dancing salsa moves and styling with sexual overtones and decided that this is the major element of salsa, rather than the actual steps and technique.

3. He probably represents the majority of the guys who stand around the dance floor drinking their beers and staring at dancers all night.

4. I've got to be even more selective in who I dance with, even if it means offending people by saying no, and refusing to be handed off to strangers.

5. Hands are not for hitting!

Sorry to hear about your bad experience. From what I've seen in years of dancing in Latin clubs (2) guys in general like to try it on. Perhaps tarring everyone with the same brush though (3) is a little extreme but I definitely agree with (4) being more selective.

 

[MacMoto]

omg he licked your ear?!!!!! Bleargh! That definitely wins the most-nauseating-salsa-story-of-the-year award. You totally should have slapped him.

Definitely!

As for your friend, just explain what happened the next time you see him and tell him never to pass you over to a stranger.

 

[chr]

last weekend for a moment i was convinced i danced with ALL the salsa perverts in San Francisco (and i wasn't even ovulating!) but on second thought, none of them put their hands anywhere they shouldn't be, so i think it was just normal dancing, but closer than i am accustomed to,

In the first weeks I started to dance (with different partners), I needed that readjustment, too, but I think it came automatically quite fast.

Nowadays when I am dancing, I am completely absorbed by the technical aspects, the music and movement, so that the aspect of holding a beautiful girl in my arms has shrunk to a relatively very minor part of my attention. Actually, I think I am even a bit sad about this, but can't change it.

Even just looking at a pretty girl on the dance floor incites different thoughts or feelings as before. Earlier, when I saw a beautiful girl making sexy moves on the dance floor, I found it at often quite erotic. Now, I automatically start evaluate in my head "this body roll was nice", "her hip movement sucks", etc...

And if I look at a girl whose movement looks pleasing from a technical point of view, I don't start to fantasize on how would she be in bed, but about how her connection would feel on the dance floor, how she would react to my lead...

 

[Jag75]

Hmmm whilst I sympathise with what happened I don't think you should've hit your friend - after all he didn't know what the guy was going to do and the decision to dance with him was ultimately yours.

Having said that what a dumbhead the guy who licked you!!! A swift kick in the balls might've got the message across :S

 

[vata07]

In the first weeks I started to dance (with different partners), I needed that readjustment, too, but I think it came automatically quite fast.

Nowadays when I am dancing, I am completely absorbed by the technical aspects, the music and movement, so that the aspect of holding a beautiful girl in my arms has shrunk to a relatively very minor part of my attention. Actually, I think I am even a bit sad about this, but can't change it.

Even just looking at a pretty girl on the dance floor incites different thoughts or feelings as before. Earlier, when I saw a beautiful girl making sexy moves on the dance floor, I found it at often quite erotic. Now, I automatically start evaluate in my head "this body roll was nice", "her hip movement sucks", etc...

And if I look at a girl whose movement looks pleasing from a technical point of view, I don't start to fantasize on how would she be in bed, but about how her connection would feel on the dance floor, how she would react to my lead...

i thought i was the only one...:rocker:

 

[RugKutta]

Yeah, I agree w/ Azzey. First of all, let me say that I agree that the dude was a perv. He obviously has the wrong idea of what salsa is, and or just wanted a cheap thrill. I can definitely understand your actions. I could imagine, if I were in your shoes, being so disgusted and offended that I wouldn't have time to think about my reaction. So, I can understand you slapping somebody, just not your choice of who to slap. If it were the dude that did the licking, most of us would probably agree w/ no excuse. But your friend? Maybe this is me just taking the guy's side 'cause I'm a guy, but I'm not sure he deserved to be slapped (the licker did, though). Now, if he knew the type of guy that the licker was and passed you off anyway, that's a different story. Other than slapping the wrong person, I think you handled the situation as well as anyone could have.

 

[bailar y tocar]

And if I look at a girl whose movement looks pleasing from a technical point of view, I don't start to fantasize on how would she be in bed, but about how her connection would feel on the dance floor, how she would react to my lead...

Hmmm...I don't know, "a girl whose movement looks pleasing from a technical point of view". If its pleasing surely her gender has something to do with it. Most of us are really good at sublimating our desires especially in social situations, if we didn't we'd all be perverts.

Regarding the situation in the thread, someone needed to be slapped but it may have been dangerous to slap around a complete stranger. He might have been packing* or have friends waiting in the parking lot to jump folks on their way home, people have faced serious threats for lesser offenses. The safe thing to do is to slap the friend even if it is slightly unfair. Anyways, the friend is to blame for passing off a dance partner to someone who can't dance. *If the club attracts the type of people who have to be screened out with metal detectors...I can't comment as I would never be in such a place.

 

[evilquesadilla]

I agree with Azzey and others. The perv deserved the shove and more. But your friend probably deserved a talking to, but not a slap.

But he's your friend. Just talk to him and I'm sure things will get cleared up. I'm sure you've done that already.

Anyway I'm sorry this happened to you.

 

[Berend]

Guess i'll have to be the devils advocate for a sec ()
*gets black suit*

I went dancing Saturday night, and danced a lot with a very good friend, who happens to be a great dancer, but a bit on the "dirty dancing" side. He never crosses the line of inappropriateness, though, and everything he does is part of the salsa movement and music.

I'm guessing the person saw this and actually thought this was "normal"
If the person hasn't been to the scene before (or little), he maybe couldn't see the level of inappropriateness (or has a different level)
In a way, it's surprising this doesn't happen way more often, since in some salsaclubs, there are guys there who really are there just to drink, watch hot girls and want to grind them. The music flow of Bachata/Merengue/Reggaeton combined with alcohol, inexperience of floor/scene etiquette and the scene(s) described before might confuse any (young) male.
Shouldn't the response be more : push him off, yell "What the **** are YOU doing?" and if he isn't excusing, let start the slapping frenzy commence!

About the friend slapping: Maybe he had a talk with your friend after the first time, friend said something like "Try again" (or something similar) and your friend didn't knew about the first time (didn't state in your story). I'm sure everything will be ok, if you explain it to your friend...but slim chance he'll "give" you to some friends of him in the near future.


*burns black suit*

I really, really hate guys that do stuff like this. I really think this is one of the main reasons alot of girls/women/females/opposite gender stop with Salsa/Bachata/Zouk/Merengue/Reggaeton, because they don't DARE to take action.
Very glad you took action and hope he learned his lesson! May a similar situation NEVER happen again.

 

[chr]

Hmmm...I don't know, "a girl whose movement looks pleasing from a technical point of view". If its pleasing surely her gender has something to do with it. Most of us are really good at sublimating our desires especially in social situations, if we didn't we'd all be perverts.

Not necessarily. I don't find men sexually attractive, still (I guess) I look their dancing more often than that of the girls. It is mainly a technical interest, but I also find good dancing aesthetically pleasing regardless of the gender.

Additionally I don't think that the above attitude is purely sublimation. The average male mindset is quite "dirty": we tend to look at females as sexual objects, still it does not make most of us perverts. To become a pervert one has to act against the currently accepted moral standards, but one can have a lot of thoughts or subconscious fantasies before becoming one.

When I started to dance I found dancing with sexy girls on the dance floor exciting. Not outright arousing, but somehow... mentally distracting, maybe even a bit intimidating. Now I can completely relax and in most situations the "hotness" of my partner (if it applies) does not really change anything, even if I register it consciously.

For example last Wednesday I danced with a quite pretty girl and in any other situation it would have been hard not to regard her purely asexually while holding her in my arms for five minutes. While dancing, it was not at all what I was occupied with: she was off-time, not responsive and jerky, so it was actually not an enjoyable experience by any measure. I guess, a non-dancer man would have just liked the situation on its own right, but if one goes out in the expectation of some good dances, it is a pure annoyance.

 

[evilquesadilla]

I'm guessing the person saw this and actually thought this was "normal"

This is not to Berend, but to Berend in black suit -- licking someone's ear... that's beyond misguided grinding moves. He's not a confused newbie, he's a perv. Slappage or even knee-in-groin is well deserved.

 

[KP-salsa]

This is one reason I'm always wary about open clubs, where you get more than just salsa dancers. They think the girls are tramps and open to all. They see the girls dressing provocatively and dancing close and sensually with anyone who asks them and think that they're open to anything.

We, as dancers, know how wrong this is, but it's an easy misinterpretation to make and is a very good reason to hold salsa / latin nights outside a normal club environment or at least charge a cover that would put the casual drinkers / oglers off.

I think your friend deserved the slap, by the way. He'd have known that you were dropped earlier, he'd have known that the guy was a non-dancer, he therefore shouldn't have passed you over to him a second time. He needs to be aware that his actions have consequences and he should be more careful when passing his dance partners to total strangers in the future when he hasn't seen them dance. You probably got off lucky with an ear lick, he could have done a lot worse, and you could have been seriously injured when being dropped.

It's easy for us to forget how salsa looks to the uninformed, but don't let it put you off dancing with strangers. They're not all going to be like this.

 

[Fundance]

Originally Posted by chr
--------------

Nowadays when I am dancing, I am completely absorbed by the technical aspects, the music and movement, so that the aspect of holding a beautiful girl in my arms has shrunk to a relatively very minor part of my attention. Actually, I think I am even a bit sad about this, but can't change it.
----------------

It will likely change back when you get past the stage of thinking technically.... Yes, the technical things are interesting to appraise but when you get bored as well you may, what remains is the relationship between man and woman on the dance floor. Aside from that, a very important part of the salsa 'connection' is that very relationship; the looks; the playing; the flirtation. Couples dancing well technically but lacking that chemistry are inferior to watch.

I went through a period just as you describe but once moves, sequences, techniques became more familiar what emerged was ... holding a woman gently in my manly arms, and making a little playful love to her on the dance floor.

I don't mean sexual arousal. That happens almost never, dancing salsa, and I think that would be your warning bell that things are off the dance track. As would any not-so-subliminal signals from your partner that closeness or hands are too much of an invasion.

Sure, the timing, technique, balance are essential to this and can make it thrilling in more than one dimension; but in my view they enhance the basic man-woman connection that should be going on in salsa.

Fun.