Married and Dancing without Spouse

Interesting conversation. I've been in our salsa scene for over a decade and I've apparently been oblivious to all the dating drama that seems to be going on. My observation, along with Offbeat's, is that I see a lot of single women who remain single for years on end. One of my partners recently told me that all the men she meets "run" when they learn she salsa dances. However, I am also aware that the trend among younger people these days is to focus on their education, career and fun until they reach about 30 yrs so that may explain some of it. I have quite a few married partners that go out salsa dancing once a week as their night out while they leave their husbands home to take care of their kids. I go out dancing about 2x per week and my wife comes out with me about 2x per month. We've been married 33 yrs.

Another point. There are obviously a lot of opportunities to make contact with a lot of people each night of dancing but it is awfully loud for talking and you are changing partners all the time. When do you have time to get to know someone? Or is it just mental telepathy.
 
I haven't read this whole thread, but I would be pretty upset if the person with whom I thought I was in an intimate relationship was lying to me about something like this. It's the type of violation of trust that I would not be very understanding about, at all.
 
Where I go dancing, there are always many people that know me there, and they know I'm married. If I started dancing intimately with the same girl all night, people would probably talk. So going back to the guy that didn't tell his wife, I feel good in saying he should start by being honest with himself and about his marital status with people at the club. Once everyone knows you are married, it lowers the risk that the opposite sex would even consider your intentions were anything but dancing.

Now about this thing that humans might evolve to some non-monogamous paradise, I have to say that one great skill humans also have is that of building powerful and long lasting relationships. When you get to know someone over many years, they know you and you know them and there is a strength that should not be overlooked. That doesn't mean that other people will not also contribute to your education and experiences of life.

However, on the flip side, sometimes people who cannot maintain long relationships with others have had something bad happen to them, and they have developed issues with trust or anger or shame. The good news is dancing can often solve these problems. Sure, people may go a number of years dating or just dancing for fun, but they are also engaging in a powerful ritual that can bring about great healing.

Speaking of modern times, there are other ways of bonding beyond traditional marriage where you get a court document and a ring. Often people just choose to be together, and not necessarily with the same sex or race or religion. That is wonderful that this is more accepted now. And do people have a choice to never create a long term relationship? Absolutely! But there are many who do, and some health studies have even shown people tend to live longer if in a long term relationship.
 
David said:
Now about this thing that humans might evolve to some non-monogamous paradise, I have to say that one great skill humans also have is that of building powerful and long lasting relationships. When you get to know someone over many years, they know you and you know them and there is a strength that should not be overlooked.
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Yes, close friendships are great. I love my close friends dearly but--even though I have shared a bed with one of them (female) for a few months :D--I have no intention of marrying them. :p I know many couples love to boast they are married to their best friend, but for some people, choosing to marry someone would mean that person is a lot more than "best friend". I lived with my ex-boyfriend for four years and yes, we were each other's best friend in every way. Having been through that experience, it is *not* what I am looking for in a long-term romantic relationship/marriage. I have friends I can reach out to if I want to just have a deep, intimate conversation with someone about things close to my heart. Besides, most men are notoriously bad at "talking things through". :p

David said:
However, on the flip side, sometimes people who cannot maintain long relationships with others have had something bad happen to them, and they have developed issues with trust or anger or shame.
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Not everyone who is single at a certain point in time has "issues". Being "coupled up" is *not* necessarily everyone's "default" or "goal" state.

David said:
some health studies have even shown people tend to live longer if in a long term relationship.
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Actually, those studies showed that *men* lived longer if they were married -- there was no effect on women's longevity.

Single people and child-free people are discriminated against on many levels in our society (at least in the US), there is no need for even more negativity directed towards them. Single people can have many close relationships with friends and family that can be even more fulfilling than the relationships between married partners. No matter what some people like to think, marriage and having children are *not* necessarily what everyone wants or would make them happy.

As I said, live and let live. :)
 
Sabrosura said:
Not everyone who is single at a certain point in time has "issues". Being "coupled up" is *not* necessarily everyone's "default" or "goal" state.

Actually, those studies showed that *men* lived longer if they were married -- there was no effect on women's longevity.
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*rant* I hate those studies. For one thing, they don't show causation: it's just as likely that unhealthy men are less likely to find a woman who will marry them.

Besides, do those married people really live longer, or does it just SEEM longer?:D

Finally... think about dancing to one of those live salsa songs that goes on for 20 minutes. Now imagine it lasting for 20 years!:p
 
salsera_alemana said:
I so agree with you! I have seen it happen many times in the salsa scene. And like you say, it is human (which does not excuse it). Dancing salsa is not like e. g. going to the fitness center without your partner. Yes, you can also meet someone else outside the dance scene to whom you get attracted, e. g. in the fitness center or in the office. However, in the salsa scene it is much more likely that you fall in love or get attracted to someone else, even if you think it will never happen to you. I would say, there is so much more temptation, physical contact, flirtation etc. than in other surroundings.

It doesn't necessarily have to happen, but it can easily happen....
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Finally! Someone knows what I'm talking about :)
 
Well I see generalizations being made to support multiple view points including mine. Seems there is no solid right answer here but here are some things we CANNOT say:
1. All married people who dance salsa will cheat on their spouse
2. The happiest people are single (or married)
3. Long term relationships are always best

It is what is best for each person that matters, and that can change over time. What is important is you ask the right questions, not think you know all the answers. ;)
 
David said:
1. All married people who dance salsa will cheat on their spouse
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Sigh! Ok, I'm going to attempt explaining one more time cause I don't think the point is going across (no pun indented). You always (and many other) seem to concentrate on the cheating aspect of it when the cheating aspect is not my main argument. To make it simple I'm going to tell a salsa story. You are free to change the context of the story to fit a different event, because this is not exclusive to salsa. I only selected salsa because we are in the heat of moment ;).

Once a upon a time, in a salsa social, two MARRIED, COMMITTED, TRUSTING strangers, a man an a woman, danced together for the first time. Unlike the other dances, this one felt different. Neither could explain it, but as if they felt they knew each other for years. For a brief moment they were both confused, but their sub-conscious COMMITMENT soon knocked some sense into them. The dance was over, they smiled and politely thanked each other, and walked away both convinced, or at least that's wanted to believe, it was only an innocent dance. Each went about their lives.

They did not come across each other again for many weeks, by then the innocent dance was a distant memory.... until they met again on the dance floor! But there's that feeling again! Only this time it was different; It's was even more intriguing than the last time. She was feeling nervous, he was feeling confused, heck he even tripped over a CBL in the process. What does this means? what is happening to them? This cannot be. They are both committed to their relationships and happy... The dance was over, they both thanked each other, smiled and walked away each making a promise for themselves not to experience this again because they are happily married. Neither knows what the other is thinking these two strangers danced with each other for the last time, or, did they?

The day of the next social came, they are both home debating whether to go out dancing or not. After all, it's only salsa and fun and they are both happily married. By now just the thought of bumping into each other causes her heart to palpitate, him sweating bullets. Neither had planned that they would face such a situation one day. By deciding to stay home they are implicitly admitting that something is going on, of course neither of them is willing to concede because to them, they are both happily married and things would never change, so they both decided to boldly go vowing to avoid each other. They each chose the opposite corner of one another hoping that they would never catch each others' eye and for a good 15 mins, it worked. Then curiosity kicked in. "I wonder if he's here" she wondered. "I wonder if she's enjoying her dance" as he was watching her from afar. Fed up with this childish behaviour, they decided to face the situation like adults, after all what could happen? They are both, happily married. There is no harm in a dance.

Both determined not to withdraw from the battle and show whatever sentiments who's the boss, they decided to dance, and boy oh boy things went spiraling. Their eyes were locked throughout the dance, their hearts went racing. To them it was only one sided never thought this could happen to both of them, but they did not care, they didn't want the dance to end. They both went home afterward, overwhelmed with the sensations but feeling guilty at the same time. They could never allow themselves to slip like this, because of course they are happily married. They both decided to make mad love to their partners at home to renew their commitment and to wash away the sense of guilt, the usually talkative strangers spent the rest of the night quiet , lost in their thoughts compiling a list of million questions about their feelings. They knew they were both screwed. A new chapter has just begun, to her he was the mustard on the hotdog, to him she was the burger on the bun.

This went on for a weeks. Each time they danced their feeling grew stronger, now they are both feeling the pain, the pain of guilt for feeling for someone else and the pain of not being together they decided to tell each other..... Boy meets girl, girl meets boy. They are in love, they go home armed with one sentence.... "I met someone. I love you but i'm not in love with you".... Au revoir, bonjour la visite....

The End.

Noticed that I purposely did not mention that they did not sleep together during this time. Why? Because they haven't...(see no cheating, up until they told each other it was all dance and innocence). Now if you think that this is far fetched and that story like this of two innocent, committed people, could never happen and have their lives turn upside down, then may I suggest you start dancing less and talking more to people, because boy oh boy the stories that you are missing out there :D.

This is Tipper, signing-out.
 
TwoCentsTipper said:
When someone who is married goes dancing without their spouse, they may or may not fall in love with someone else and end up leaving said spouse
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Ok, what then? Should married people not dance salsa if their spouse doesn't? Should married people avoid everyone of the opposite sex completely if they want to remain married? I'm just not sure what your point is beyond the above summary (feel free to correct my intentional oversimplification, but that's what it seems to boil down to from what I'm seeing). If that was the entire point then I'm pretty sure not many are surprised by it. If you're saying people shouldn't feel like it will never happen to them...ok. But people always do things they shouldn't do. Sometimes people who feel like something will never happen to them end up being wrong, sometimes they end up being right. It is what it is, we can't control them.
 
salsera_alemana said:
Kading certainly can answer this better than me. But from what I saw and know, that is not the case in the Netherlands. To me it looked like all got along very well and there do not seem to be any economic differences. Racism does not seem to be much of an issue, either. I talked about this with friends from Suriname who said they do not feel discriminated. This applies to the cities, in the countryside it might be different. (The majority of Caribbean people in Holland is originally from Suriname but most were born in in the Netherlands.) For me the Netherlands looked like a role model for different ethnic groups and races getting along very well.
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As an exotic black salsa /mambo dancer married to a hot white woman(awesome dancer),I've been following the last few threads about race really closely, still trying to figure out how race became a part of this discussion, but it's always interesting to hear peoples views on it. One of the things that I do love about salsa is the fact, I can go out on any given night to a salsa venue here and meet all races,dancing together, having fun,socializing, also people of all income levels, and societal levels as well , and when it's all over we can go back to our separate ways of existing, but I digress, for me you shouldn't be going out dancing under false pretenses without your spouse, and I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how race became a part of this thread.
 
Offbeat said:
I am willing to take that bet (may be I should start rooting for conservatives worldwide). I find the idea of controlling a woman very appealing :D Why else you think I dance? Alas Salsa is the last refuge for a man to lead woman and for a woman to follow her man :D

We need to meet again in 2512 to see which one of us is right. Hopefully salsa would have still survived :)

Let the wise cracks begin...
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I just want to find out if you're serious when you drop your occasional cheeky sexist lines or if you seriously do want me to come and smack you! :D:alien: Actually, no, you'd probably take the opportunity to try and pimp me off onto your traveller friend...

Am I supposed to follow? Oh dear. I am so not obedient when dancing!
 
David said:
Well I see generalizations being made to support multiple view points including mine. Seems there is no solid right answer here but here are some things we CANNOT say:
1. All married people who dance salsa will cheat on their spouse
2. The happiest people are single (or married)
3. Long term relationships are always best

It is what is best for each person that matters, and that can change over time. What is important is you ask the right questions, not think you know all the answers. ;)
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It's human nature to find a partner, you just feel like you're missing something if you're single (though it's good to be single once in a while after a relationship obviously). I find it very relaxing to have a girlfriend, somehow I feel complete.
I agree with you, though I do notice with friends that you tend to become stuck in the same life style when you have a girlfriend (married). All my friends who had a long relationship and break up, usually change their life around big time. One girl who used to be quiet is now party'ing like no other. One guy has completely changed his work attitude. They realise they missed 'something' after they broke up, and completely changed their way.
 
TwoCentsTipper said:
To make it simple I'm going to tell a salsa story.
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An interesting story, and my question would be "in all these weeks of emotional turmoil, did they do anything other than dance?" I'm not talking about sleeping together here... I'm asking, did they chat to each other while taking a break from dancing? go for a midnight snack after dancing? have some friends time way from salsa at all? I'm asking because from the way you are describing it, it sounds like a classic case of treating dance chemistry as love. Can dance chemistry be a sign of chemistry/compatibility in other aspects of life? Sure. Is dance chemistry always a reliable sign that you'll hit off in a non-dance situation. No.
 
TwoCentsTipper said:
Sigh! Ok, I'm going to attempt explaining one more time cause I don't think the point is going across (no pun indented). You always (and many other) seem to concentrate on the cheating aspect of it when the cheating aspect is not my main argument. To make it simple I'm going to tell a salsa story. You are free to change the context of the story to fit a different event, because this is not exclusive to salsa. I only selected salsa because we are in the heat of moment ;).
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People focus on this because early in the thread you used absolute language. Absolue language shouts out to be shot down and you need very strong evidance to back it up. You came up with loads of evidance to back up probibilities, but not absolutes. Nobody disputes that you could meet someone dancing and that could break up a relationship so people don't dwell on those points.

So, the point you are making is understood and not what people are trying to argue with you about. The point you made before is contentious so people are trying to engage you on it.
 
Sabrosura said:
In the US there tend to be significant economic differences between the white and black/latino population. (Less so between whites and Asians). Generally black neighborhoods are mostly low income, etc. So (unfortunately) in the US, "generally" (of course there are always exceptions) "black" is associated with "low income".

Is that the same in Holland? My impression is that there are fewer economic differences there between the different ethnic groups.
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You're correct! (and so is salsafix)
In Holland studying and getting a good job doesn't require a lot of money. Everyone can study if they have the brains for it, since the government pays for it all. This results in a far less economic differences between black and white people since everyone has an equal opportunity. A few generations ago there was probably still a big difference between black and white people, but now a days you have tons of black people that have a good job. It is however still the case that black people are less typical to study due to their parents not having studied (i.e. the parents were the ones who came to Holland), which does result in a difference.
Another big difference between America and Holland is that the difference between a top income (office job) is (in the early years) not much. Lets say you're 28 years old. Person A has a top income job, person B has a normal job. The top income job would on average earn be lets say 1500 euro per month (after tax) more than the person with a normal job. So even if black people have the jobs on the low end, there is not that much difference.
Another difference is that woman (and man) care less about money than in America (I think). If I would say to a girl I have a good income (and lets say I'm not saying it in an arrogant way, so it doesn't sound cocky, lets say she asked) most girls would be like 'oh well w/e, I don't really care'. If I however say I work at a certain organization X which has a good name, most girls like it since it shows hard work and I have a good profession. People are more interested in what you do, nobody likes a lazy bum, they however don't really care about what you earn.
 
I have seen couples (Married and non married) change partners with Salsa being its catalyst.

Does that mean I think that it will eventually happen with all couples that delve into salsa? No, I do not. I would like to believe that ideas such as devotion, commitment and self-restraint still exist.

In the end, we all have a choice. We can allow our feelings to dictate our lives, or not.

Personally, if I am in a committed relationship, then I am committed no matter what. Nothing will break that bond.

The only way to escape me is to break up with me lol.

I have been doing this for a while, and never once have I thought "i'd be better off with that person instead."

It is true that salsa gives more opportunities to meet people of the opposite sex and to feel an attraction, but if I am in a relationship already, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do to sway me the other way. That is just a guiding principle that I refuse to break.
 
Well said!

MMaatttt said:
People focus on this because early in the thread you used absolute language. Absolue language shouts out to be shot down and you need very strong evidance to back it up. You came up with loads of evidance to back up probibilities, but not absolutes. Nobody disputes that you could meet someone dancing and that could break up a relationship so people don't dwell on those points.

So, the point you are making is understood and not what people are trying to argue with you about. The point you made before is contentious so people are trying to engage you on it.
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Serendipitously came across following article while on google news:

Monogamy’s Boost to Human Evolution

“Monogamy is a problem,” said Dieter Lukas of the University of Cambridge in a telephone news conference this week. As Dr. Lukas explained to reporters, he and other biologists consider monogamy an evolutionary puzzle.

In 9 percent of all mammal species, males and females will share a common territory for more than one breeding season, and in some cases bond for life. This is a problem — a scientific one — because male mammals could theoretically have more offspring by giving up on monogamy and mating with lots of females.

In a new study, Dr. Lukas and his colleague Tim Clutton-Brock suggest that monogamy evolves when females spread out, making it hard for a male to travel around and fend off competing males.

On the same day, Kit Opie of University College London and his colleagues published a similar study on primates, which are especially monogamous — males and females bond in over a quarter of primate species. The London scientists came to a different conclusion: that the threat of infanticide leads males to stick with only one female, protecting her from other males.
 
David said:
The good news is dancing can often solve these problems. Sure, people may go a number of years dating or just dancing for fun, but they are also engaging in a powerful ritual that can bring about great healing.
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Partner dancing as a therapy for people with relationship issues! Very interesting thought. May be it can work. I hope someone somewhere is researching this as a therapeutic option in addition to counselling, etc. I think it might even work for people who are in depression.

After all partner dancing has proven to be a bit helpful with dementia.
 
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