Looks and Managing Low Confidence

[Chris_Yannick]

Because confidence is generally something I struggle with even beyond dancing. Even if I didn't believe it was about my looks, my confidence can take a nose dive when I look at other people dance and see how much better they are. Even worse when they then tell me they've been dancing for shorter length of time. I start to question whether sone people have an innate dance ability while I don't. Basically, comparison with other dancers is extremely destructive behaviour but is a rabbit hole I fall into often.

Here’s a suggestion. Can you name or think of one thing that you’re good at in Salsa?

Just say anything. Don’t follow it up with “I’m good at X but…”.
The point of this exercise to know what you’re good at and expand on it by continuing to develop that aspect of your dancing, which as a by-product will develop other areas in you dancing.

Don’t look to compare yourself with another. Just say what you’re good at.

When you know you’re good at that thing, you can own it. This is a good way to start developing confidence.

For me, I knew I was good at creating a safe and comfortable dance environment for my dance partner. Knowing that, I became an even safer dance partner by shoring up my basic leading skills. I improved my spatial awareness and limited collisions with other couples. This happened automatically with more practice. Eventually, it led to me becoming smoother, which was felt by my dance partner and often commented upon. Then, after becoming smoother at more things, the comments switched from being smooth to being relaxed and fun. But in the beginning, I had none of that.

I was building upon that initial thing I was good at.

This works with anything. Try it.

Another example is my ability to draw. I am not a good artist if I compare myself to people I watch on Youtube. But I know I have a talent at sketching. If I develop that skill, I know I will become better.

Knowing that you can and will get better is crucial to developing that self-confidence.

Doing the above has also helped me get over the idea that there will always be someone better than me, especially in the same areas I’m passionate about. That’s just the law of nature.

Watching people who are better than you shouldn’t bring you down. But I get it, you’re confidence isn’t there yet. So having a buffer against feeling dejected is crucially important.

I always look at dancers who are better than me not as threats, but as inspirations and learning tools. Initially, I didn’t think that way. If they’ve been dancing for less time and are better, than great for them. It has nothing to do with me. We are all on a different progression timeline.

I can look at any dude on the dance floor and say with complete objectivity that he’s better than me. I have enough confidence in my own dancing to not let that affect how I dance. Why should it?

My way of thinking really started to change when I started watching guys who were subjectively worse than me get dances with the people I wanted to dance with. All of a sudden, dance ability meant squat. There are so many other things happening in a social scene that you can never fully comprehend.

This is where focusing internally on yourself helps a lot.

IMO, confidence comes first before ability. This means not trivializing your own abilities, because that’s just a form of self-sabotoge.

 

[dadada_486]

Here’s a suggestion. Can you name or think of one thing that you’re good at in Salsa?

Just say anything. Don’t follow it up with “I’m good at X but…”.
The point of this exercise to know what you’re good at and expand on it by continuing to develop that aspect of your dancing, which as a by-product will develop other areas in you dancing.

Don’t look to compare yourself with another. Just say what you’re good at.

When you know you’re good at that thing, you can own it. This is a good way to start developing confidence.

For me, I knew I was good at creating a safe and comfortable dance environment for my dance partner. Knowing that, I became an even safer dance partner by shoring up my basic leading skills. I improved my spatial awareness and limited collisions with other couples. This happened automatically with more practice. Eventually, it led to me becoming smoother, which was felt by my dance partner and often commented upon. Then, after becoming smoother at more things, the comments switched from being smooth to being relaxed and fun. But in the beginning, I had none of that.

I was building upon that initial thing I was good at.

This works with anything. Try it.

Another example is my ability to draw. I am not a good artist if I compare myself to people I watch on Youtube. But I know I have a talent at sketching. If I develop that skill, I know I will become better.

Knowing that you can and will get better is crucial to developing that self-confidence.

Doing the above has also helped me get over the idea that there will always be someone better than me, especially in the same areas I’m passionate about. That’s just the law of nature.

Watching people who are better than you shouldn’t bring you down. But I get it, you’re confidence isn’t there yet. So having a buffer against feeling dejected is crucially important.

I always look at dancers who are better than me not as threats, but as inspirations and learning tools. Initially, I didn’t think that way. If they’ve been dancing for less time and are better, than great for them. It has nothing to do with me. We are all on a different progression timeline.

I can look at any dude on the dance floor and say with complete objectivity that he’s better than me. I have enough confidence in my own dancing to not let that affect how I dance. Why should it?

My way of thinking really started to change when I started watching guys who were subjectively worse than me get dances with the people I wanted to dance with. All of a sudden, dance ability meant squat. There are so many other things happening in a social scene that you can never fully comprehend.

This is where focusing internally on yourself helps a lot.

IMO, confidence comes first before ability. This means not trivializing your own abilities, because that’s just a form of self-sabotoge.

Thanks for the advice You are right about dancing ability doesn't mean all that much. I have gotten over dance rejections a long time ago, though sometimes it still stings when you see follows flock to their favourite dancer, particularly the last song...and it doesnt include you. Other examples is when you ask a follow for dance at the same time as another guy (surprising how often this happens), and you immediately give up think you wouldn't be her preference. That's right. That's the sort of low confidence I'm talking about!

I have had a few compliments. People say I'm a gentle lead for example, which is good for some dance, bad for others. I also believe that I have decent rhythm. I used to play the piano and working with beats and syncopations is natural for me, though I'm sure this is the case for everyone. With all the dances I do, it's sometimes hard to judge how good you are because (as I have asked here) feedback is not something that you often get, and I wouldn't want to get it either. The only measure of how good you are is sometimes from whether people enjoy dancing with you, and I have to say more often than not the reaction is luke warm at best! This is why I have started dancing with teachers. I figured it is better to embarrass yourself in front of a few to try to improve as much as possible!

You are right in saying everyone has his own path, and very to often people give up because they are not amazing at something just mediocre. I think with dance, I wouldn't mind being a moderate dancer because I enjoy it. Being an improver to intermediate dancer is a strange position to be. You are not beginner, so you are treated with leniency and without expectation by follows. But you also not amazing to be one of the cool kids that everyone flocks to at least once per social.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

though sometimes it still stings when you see follows flock to their favourite dancer, particularly the last song...and it doesnt include you. Other examples is when you ask a follow for dance at the same time as another guy (surprising how often this happens), and you immediately give up think you wouldn't be her preference.

I’m not sure if that feeling ever goes away completely only because you can never be everyone’s favorite dance partner. I was never the type to aggressively go after a follower on the dance floor. I also ditched the idea of trying to ‘catch’ someone by running after them all over the place. If they are within earshot, then ok, but there is usually someone else close by and so I don’t often get myself into any tug-of-war matches with other leads.
Even so, I will usually concede to the other lead if we happen to ask at the same time.

But this is where the confidence aspect comes up. If you feel good about yourself, you don’t feel down when some other lead gets preferential treatment.

If you can find one person who enjoys dancing with you and shows you preferential treatment, it will go a long way. Those small wins make a big difference and can give you a confidence boost. But don’t expect the best dancers to do the same when there are pro dancers in the same room.

I have had a few compliments. People say I'm a gentle lead for example, which is good for some dance, bad for others. I also believe that I have decent rhythm. I used to play the piano and working with beats and syncopations is natural for me, though I'm sure this is the case for everyone.

This is good. It’s always better to be gentle than rough. The people who don’t like gentle leading are probably looking for more clarity rather than force, and you can certainly have a light, clear lead. That comes with experience and practice.

Having a musical background is an advantage and one you can exploit. You’d be surprised how many people don’t find it natural to work with beats and syncopations.

The only measure of how good you are is sometimes from whether people enjoy dancing with you, and I have to say more often than not the reaction is luke warm at best! This is why I have started dancing with teachers. I figured it is better to embarrass yourself in front of a few to try to improve as much as possible!

Dancing with teachers is a good idea. Good, compassionate teachers will do their best to make you look good. It’s another way to boost confidence.

You are right in saying everyone has his own path, and very to often people give up because they are not amazing at something just mediocre. I think with dance, I wouldn't mind being a moderate dancer because I enjoy it.

I would never suggest someone to do something they don’t enjoy. The longer you stick around, the less these comparsions with other dancers, matter.

 

[SalsaDancingAmishman]

Ugly dudes with killer dance skills do great on the salsa floor.

IFIFY

 

[mtbell]

Typically the guys that dont have the looks and show up in sweats generally have the confidence and dance skills to match, and they are dancing the whole night.

Getting rejected is just part of the journey to becoming better at dancing, it will allow you to build a thick skin and shrug it off in the future and not let it ruin your night. Someone that rudely rejects is generally doing you a favor since the dance most likely would be bad as they would not be interested. I used to put people in a do not dance list, but then over time i cannot remember who rudely rejected me in the past even in the same night. Many times I have end up asking the same people a second time to get rejected again.

Its funny the times when you get rejected by a follower either do to looks or something else, and then after a few dances with other people the follower that rejected you before comes and asks you to dance. Also there are times when followers i ask would reluctantly agree to dance with me not thinking much of me. I start off with a weak basic step and then the music picks up then lead them through some nice combos to see how surprised they are, and completely not expecting it.

 

[1derpalm]

Typically the guys that dont have the looks and show up in sweats generally have the confidence and dance skills to match, and they are dancing the whole night.

Getting rejected is just part of the journey to becoming better at dancing, it will allow you to build a thick skin and shrug it off in the future and not let it ruin your night. Someone that rudely rejects is generally doing you a favor since the dance most likely would be bad as they would not be interested. I used to put people in a do not dance list, but then over time i cannot remember who rudely rejected me in the past even in the same night. Many times I have end up asking the same people a second time to get rejected again.

Its funny the times when you get rejected by a follower either do to looks or something else, and then after a few dances with other people the follower that rejected you before comes and asks you to dance. Also there are times when followers i ask would reluctantly agree to dance with me not thinking much of me. I start off with a weak basic step and then the music picks up then lead them through some nice combos to see how surprised they are, and completely not expecting it.

I agree it's something that happens but saying it's part of the journey like paying your dues is BS (not saying that's what you said). To me it's just as acceptable to put someone on the DNA for saying no (particularly HOW) as it is to decline a dance without giving a reason. Both are justifiable.
I may sound biter but I don't make a stink if I'm declined. Mind you it happens rarely. I only get annoyed if it's smug or snobby. But even then I just move on but make a note to say no thanks (or lol at my phone the second they walk up) in a few months time after they realize that I am trying to be a serious dancer.

 

[Bostontraitor]

I am trying to be a serious dancer.

You've lost me here.

 

[Offbeat]

I am highly skeptical that people are rejected because of looks. If someone is rejected for being unkempt or unhygienic, that is not rejection for looks. I swear, if I were a follower I would reject some men that routinely get dances. I think it is disrespectful to show up disheveled, unkempt, or unhygienic for dancing.

 

[Bostontraitor]

My therapist suggested that no one would reject my dance because of my look.

 

[Offbeat]

My therapist suggested that no one would reject my dance because of my look.

But they certainly would depending on who your therapist is!

 

[1derpalm]

You've lost me here.

Aka not here trying to pick up. Not being flighty etc.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I agree it's something that happens but saying it's part of the journey like paying your dues is BS

If you want to be part of a system, you have to pay your dues. Social dancing is like a mini system of gatekeepers.

If I wanted to DJ, perform, compete teach or run a school, I'd also have to pay my dues and accept that there will be people trying to keep me down. There's also many who will encourage but I expect opposition all the same.

Social dancing is similar although I never felt it was as cutthroat.

But I don't really think of it as paying my dues. I'm earning my dancing stripes.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I am highly skeptical that people are rejected because of looks

I would say it depends on the maturity of the scene. A younger scene will have more holdovers from the clubbing scene. Even if you enter a high skill level scene, you’ll still get rejected based on other things that are related to your looks like your age. It may not be a direct rejection, but it’s still a strike on your appearance if you get passed over for someone younger.

I’m curious though how it works in non Latin dance scenes. I’ve only experienced a little bit of the Tango scene, but it seems your looks/age don’t seem to matter as much. In fact, older distinguished Tangueros (male especially) seem to be in high demand.

 

[1derpalm]

If you want to be part of a system, you have to pay your dues. Social dancing is like a mini system of gatekeepers.

If I wanted to DJ, perform, compete teach or run a school, I'd also have to pay my dues and accept that there will be people trying to keep me down. There's also many who will encourage but I expect opposition all the same.

Social dancing is similar although I never felt it was as cutthroat.

But I don't really think of it as paying my dues. I'm earning my dancing chops.

Agree on the dj tip. Not on the social dance tip. I do and I don't. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting what was said. Rejections happen. Move on. I just think it doesn't HAVE to be a part of the journey as in "I'm new here so I gotta expect to be rejected", etc. I think it's stupid. As is ASI perhaps I misinterpreted the comment.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Agree on the dj tip. Not on the social dance tip. I do and I don't. Again, maybe I'm misinterpreting what was said. Rejections happen. Move on. I just think it doesn't HAVE to be a part of the journey as in "I'm new here so I gotta expect to be rejected", etc. I think it's stupid. As is ASI perhaps I misinterpreted the comment.

I think people place rules on Latin social dancing, which makes it feel like you have to go out of your way to prove yourself. If this was interpretive dancing, no one would say or think anything. But we are doing something that people believe should look and feel a certain way. If you don't measure up, then you'll be knocked down a peg.

But that doesn’t mean the journey has to be difficult. I like to think I made the right choices and managed my time in the social scene quite well. I got to know all the right people and never felt like I had to fight and claw my way up the ladder. I also didn’t plan it out and everything felt organic.

 

[Offbeat]

I would say it depends on the maturity of the scene. A younger scene will have more holdovers from the clubbing scene. Even if you enter a high skill level scene, you’ll still get rejected based on other things that are related to your looks like your age. It may not be a direct rejection, but it’s still a strike on your appearance if you get passed over for someone younger.

I’m curious though how it works in non Latin dance scenes. I’ve only experienced a little bit of the Tango scene, but it seems your looks/age don’t seem to matter as much. In fact, older distinguished Tangueros (male especially) seem to be in high demand.

Just returned after dancing at pre-party Haven't danced for straight four hours since Paris congress and not much salsa in the past 2-3 months. Skipped yesterday's pre-party and today afternoon's because I want sure if driving an hour to SF would be worth it. Since local dancers haven't been showing up at socials all this year. I was told the afternoon rooftop party was very good. I was in two minds of attending. I didn't know some of my fav out of town dancers would be there. After not dancing for a few months inertia sets it. Though the pre-party started at 9pm, I showed up at midnight. Luckily the dancing got extended by 2 extra hours. Crowd was good and most people were from out of town. Rather strange that attendance by locals was very thin. But had they showed by the floor would have got extremely crowded. Music was good by the visiting DJs.

There were people of all age groups and skill levels. My four best dances of the night were with two ladies who might be at least 10 years older and two ladies who must be 25-30 years younger. I didn't see much rejections. Or people dancing with only certain age group. Nor did I see the older crowd sitting out. Everyone was busy dance floor. Didn't see people dancing twice with each other either. There must have been at least 150 people from all parts of the USA and some from south America, France, Korea, Japan, etc.

If that sample size is a good representation of salsa dancers world wide in general, then I have to say rejections were very small in number and skill level or age based selectivity wasn't apparent. I had a couple of rejections because of tiredness, a couple that said they were tired but were dancing half a minute later. That's on par and not bad at all.

Sometimes when discussing we tend to focus on a negative too much through long deliberations The negatives are not that widely prevalent as reading the discussions would make it seem.

 

[mtbell]

I think most people that start dancing getting rejected hurts and it is something to get over. As you get better you get rejected less but it still happens, but you dont care as much and you are more focused on getting a good dance rather than concerned what a leader of follower thinks of you. Going through this process is part of learning to dance.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

If that sample size is a good representation of salsa dancers world wide in general, then I have to say rejections were very small in number and skill level or age based selectivity wasn't apparent. I had a couple of rejections because of tiredness, a couple that said they were tired but were dancing half a minute later. That's on par and not bad at all.

My experience is speaking with 2 friends who are about 15-20 years older than me, who both recounted that advancing age played a role in the number of times they get asked to dance.

If I watched them dance, I would have no idea if they were being discriminated against.

So I have to trust their direct testimony. I don’t know many women 10-20 years older than me who are still active in the scene, but I’m sure there is a good reason for that.

At the recent Prague Salsa Marathon, there were a few older ladies but honestly, couldn’t be more than 10 years older than me, and they seemed to get dances fine, but if I were to guess, I’d say that is an outlier due to the inclusive nature of marathon dancers.

Age will hit men differently. Being established helps only in my local scene. As long as I continue to dance and socialize, I shouldn’t have trouble getting dances until I start looking my age.

 

[Offbeat]

My experience is speaking with 2 friends who are about 15-20 years older than me, who both recounted that advancing age played a role in the number of times they get asked to dance.

If I watched them dance, I would have no idea if they were being discriminated against.

So I have to trust their direct testimony. I don’t know many women 10-20 years older than me who are still active in the scene, but I’m sure there is a good reason for that.

At the recent Prague Salsa Marathon, there were a few older ladies but honestly, couldn’t be more than 10 years older than me, and they seemed to get dances fine, but if I were to guess, I’d say that is an outlier due to the inclusive nature of marathon dancers.

Age will hit men differently. Being established helps only in my local scene. As long as I continue to dance and socialize, I shouldn’t have trouble getting dances until I start looking my age.

We have two or three who are well until their 60s or mid sixties. They are regulars therefore don't have much problem getting dances. I can say they probably dance more in the night than me. By that age they also have confidence to ask, than wait to be asked.

For men it is definitely different. If you are good, you can get as many dances as you want.

Like at any age range, there are good dancers and not so good dancers in older age group too. I have seen some pretty twenty somethings not get asked either because they aren't yet good. A lot also depends on the venue and type of crowd. For example if it is a place patronized by mainly Latin crowd playing primarily salsa, merengue, etc the people more likely are dancing with those whom they know or came with. It also skews older. At the other end you have latin club crowd that skews heavily young into 20 or 30s. Then you have Taino tower like crowd where average age might be 50 or above. Most USA metros have a significant population of people well originate from Caribbeans or South America. I don't think most cities in Europe come close to that type of mix of people who are familiar with the salsa music. That can definitely make a difference in attitudes.

There will always be a group of dancers (cliques) that won't dance with others. Not salsa, but in other dances I have observed a very small minority stick to certain age range.

 

[Amun]

I thought I might add this to the topic. I bumped into a new unknown venue that was mostly filled with older people. The youngest dance partner I had was probably around sixty, and the oldest was around 80 years old. And they were probably the best dance partners I had in a while. They didn't care about how they looked to others, they just wanted to have pure joy from dancing. And they were insanely good tbh, most people far better than me. The whole night was fantastic. So in my opinion, looks or age really totally doesn't matter in dance, and if someone is judging others, it's this person who's the killjoy.