Doubt it. The legal drinking age in the US is 21 and yet we have a severe underage drinking problem has well.
Is salsa just for the generation 50+?
- Thread starter TomSchueler
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Doubt it. The legal drinking age in the US is 21 and yet we have a severe underage drinking problem has well.
First railing against Latino machismo culture, painting and blaming Latin men as aggressors for driving girls out and now the older age. Reading your posts sound like some kind of genetic mutation appears once people cross certain age. Or may be a 25 year old creep is more acceptable to you and those you quote than 45 year old creep
You are hugely bias in one way or the other!Over all in dance scenes irrespective of age there is only tiny minority that can be called creeps. They are not enough in number to cause scene to suffer.
Don't you guys think the type of music played at clubs has quite a big impact?
I see events called "latin party" but in reality they're more of social dance events where people go out to dance the moves they learned at their dance studio... Some have a separate dance floor for reggaeton and a separate one for salsa&bachata, which causes the younger crowd to choose the reggaeton crowd since they get intimidated by all the advanced dancers.
If i just go out to dance, i prefer pure salsa and bachata, but if i go out to party i prefer it to be a mix. I like reggaeton but pure reggaeton becomes unbearable after a while... I guess a lot of salsa dancers don't even like it at all and want the place to be pure salsa which is understandable.
Mabe those kinds of places should have one that is pure salsa/bachata for the trained dancers, and one that has mixed music for the younger crowd. Then they would at least be exposed to salsa instead of just reggaeton
There is a choice in most big cities. You can go to latin night at a night club which caters to non social dancer playing all mix from reggaeton, Latin pop, few salsa, now bachata (before was merengue), Cumbia. Then you have salsa nights, which are predominantly salsa with some mix of bachata, kizomba etc, usually separate dance floor. Or a bachata night that will mix some salsa. Salsa night can be more Cuban/casino dominated or more LA/NY dominated. Due to choice of music those two find it hard to mix at most places. Then you have exclusive events - only on2, only urban kizz, only bs, only timba, etc.
So, I do not take the "do migrants misbehave" bait this time, but go to this one ...
Imagine yourself a situation:
You are in your early 20s, and your mother is having her friends over.
There is nice food and cake, some more or less boring topics - what "older" cliche women do.
Oh, and a little liquor.
One after another they will secretly starting to flirt with you. A nice comment here, a flattering there. Some may maybe offer their daughters to you.
When you are in the hallway, where the others cannot see her, she will touch your leg, whispers in your ear, that you should come close or offers you a deeper look in her cleavage. .
Such stuff.
Specially when your mother is not around, the approaches will be more openly and when they think you can't hear them, you can hear them talking about your nice ass or what they would like to do to you - or your friends from university.
They will share magazines, with topics like "why young men need an older woman" or "show those teen girls, that you can get their boy laid".
They are usually 10 friends around, of a larger group of around 20.
In these 20 are 1-2 which actually get physically touching, the 2-3 more flirt very actively and 5-6 more who at least sometimes join in, but don't start by their own. That makes like half the total.
How long will it take, until you find something else to do, when your mother got her weekly dinner with friends?
If those were women, you actually would be interested in - potentially - you might use the chance and get some of them laid. I once heard the phrase "It's only harassment, when the guy looks bad".
When you are with your boys, you might sit in your room and ******** about those old chicks, while doing your group's stuff.
But when you are alone, you might get an interest for a lockable door quickly ...
And then there of course are those, who go outside their "old girls party" and actively hunt.
Some may throw parties for younger people, and play the experienced old chick.
Others get touchy any time, they feel unobserved.
Others show their cleavage at anyone who isn't away quickly enough.
Others always have a dozen spare keys to their hotel room at hand.
Others go to the club where you go with your friends, and try to get you laid with booze - and even threaten you to tell the stories she knows about you to everyone, when you tell your mother.
Others may use so much paint, that you might think they are 30, when it is dark in the club.
And so on ...
Well, and some will actually try to get into your room, when you don't lock it.
And they will not be ashamed to tell anyone, you are lying or you were the one actually asking for it and benefiting from it, when you complain anywhere ... and of course they will pull their friendship strings to make sure, other's accept (or even believe) that explanation.
What for most guys sound an absurd situation, is reality for many women.
It is enough, if a few behave badly, if the others don't stop them, the whole group will be seen as problematic.
And when the problematic group actually makes up the majority in a room, people who are fed up with this situation, stay away.
There are many ways, social structures and social inequalities can lead to abuse and discrimination. This is only one of them, but it is very common.
And while in more traditional countries, younger people are more acceptable to misbehavior of the older generations - "respect the elderly" - in modern countries, they don't look for the flaw in themselves and are more prone to openly say how it is: This is simply sexual harassment. And any group, which accept that their group members behave that way towards people of the outside group, is part of the problem.
No matter of skin colour, language spoken, religion followed, age or sex.
So, how high is the impact really?
A single randomly molesting guy is an minor problem. The situation gets problematic, when it reaches the point, that people are under constant pressure and feel they lack the ability to defend themselves.
First the vulnerable are leaving, which increases the hunting pressure on the less vulnerable, which then leave too.
At the end only those, protected by their friends group - they male friends! - stay. And don't see a problem, as they are not molested in that way.
In well running Bachata parties about 5-10% of the guys in the room are "girl hunters" - which again, simply means an older guy, who seeks out younger women for more or less sensual dancing.
Our local Zouk scene is held down by a single guy!
He is an elderly, extremely well connected guy, who organizes free Latin dance parties, where he uses his position to "teach" sensual dancing - mostly Zouk and Kizomba - to young beginners. Including sentences like "don't be shy, those dances are dances closer". (Only when his wife isn't there of course.) His Facebook friends list is longer than all local Latin dance groups together and other organizers fear his anger, as nobody openly speaks up against him - and when done so he uses his power to bully them.
As the Zouk scene is very small, every single younger woman will be approached by him, often on her first party. And well, without people telling her otherwise - aside from those outsiders, who don't host a 2000 person friendslist on FB - she accepts the offer of free parties. And not knowing better and him obviously being a better dancer, than the guys from the class, she falls into the trap ...
There she quickly has the choice:
a) Either she bows to him and his autocratic dance style, and becomes a dull puppet, praising him and searching the fault in her own, if something goes bad
b) becomes the evil girl, who discriminates against older people
c) gets a boyfriend who protects her or
d) leaves.
The advanced women all either stay away from his parties or pretend to know nothing of it, while only showing up with male company ... and when I spoke with people about it, I heard from dozens of young women who stopped dancing Zouk because of bad experiences with him and the bad taste, this very sensual dance became because of him. Those are the ones, who still stayed in Salsa though or went back to Bachata, where the molesters at least are their age.
Yes, that is the situation, when a single person in a position of power and without anyone in the hierarchy really speaking up, abuses this power.
Read point b) again please.
I want to quote my girlfriend:
"I don't want to be seen as the girl, who does not dance with someone, just because he is old."
Many (>20%) of the songs you could play at a modern Charts party (= simply music popular for younger people right now, without discrimination of style) and they would not be seen as something alien.
They might be recognized as an unusual style, but not as something "maybe my parents listen to".
The dance styles:
Simply a higher amount of Bachata and (often) Kizomba. And Salsa often influenced by elements, more typical for Bachata. Many moves though.
If you take a look on the whole room from above, you will see a happily mixing chaos, as opposed to a field of parcels or claims, where every couple does their own thing in their own little territory.
We had that problem many times, that I simply reject learning the styles and histories, but simply take a single song as "like" or "not like".
When I point out songs I liked during a party my girlfriend - who has lived in Colombia for a while and got into Salsa there - often points out, that that song is from Colombia or at least was played there all the time.
So yes, I guess what you hear as popular Salsa music in Cali has little to do, with what "real Salsa" DJs here throw at us.
The pop remixes are more common in Bachata, which probably has little standing in Cali. Yet I see neither Spanish people nor our local Latinos having real quarrels with a few English pop songs remixed to Salsa - they often know them from Charts music the same as Germans.
Don't forget, that "Salsa" Party easily can mean, that only 40% of the dances actually are Salsa!
(40% Bachata, 20% Kizomba, Merengue, Reggeaton).
And in Spain Bachata Sensual is very big. Yet they still call the parties "Salsa" parties most of the time.
But even there the concept of SBK - Salsa Bachata Kizomba - Parties is taking hold. At least where I was.
And the only ones resisting to it are those, playing "real" music ... for a quickly ageing crowd.
Nice rant
Would be more credible coming from the female 
And no, I do not recognize these problems in local scene, as all older dancers are mostly driven away by younger leads being plain rude to ladies asking them (and yes it includes younger ladies, which do not meet certain "standards"). As we have follow heavy scene, older leds have easier time, but there are not many of us. Only creeps I have met are around 30, which have much better options for being a creep and still survive in a scene. Older creeps I guess dissappear from scene before I notice them
To be honest - I can not even imagine these armies of older dancers going around and molesting all the young girls. Sounds like nightmare.
Bottom line - I really do not see a problem mixing generations, unless its a wierd scene driven by creeps like the one described.
Just say "no" once or maybe twice. All older leads I know are more sensitive to no, than regular leads. If that fails, explain, that you do not want to dance with him. I know there are girls, who do not like to dance with older leads. It is fairly easy to spot them and stop asking. Some of them will clearly say no. Some will make it clear during the dance. Some will came back after a while and ask themselves. Some never will. Which is also OK.
The old, creepy guys tend to persist until they get put into their place. This happens, from what I've seen, only when the follower gives them a strict no. Of course the guy will see it as rude (because he is creepy and delusional), but it's one of the only ways to shoo him off permanently.
If the guy is a creep and everyone knows it, it's much easier to say no to him as there would be no fear of retribution. They will usually just move on the next girl.
I've only encountered these lone straggler types.
No will work well for regular older leads. MrR girlfriend did not want to dance with all older man, I understood. That should take care of that. Creeps will react differently and that does not depend on age. But then, usually everybody recognizes them as creeps, so what is a problem to say no as many times as required and explain specifically reason?
I'm curious to know the answer to this as well.
The only thing I can think of is if the guy is well connected or is a well known instructor in which case word may spread. Most of the time, though, you can say no without threat of retaliation, even to regular creepy guys as they have no entourage.
Nice rant
Always easy, to dismiss problems, when it is a white, heterosexual, educated male from the upper middle class speaking about them - even when he stands up for those, who are suffering.
Have you ever seen the number of female posters in this forum?
There will come little from that side. They don't exist (any more). Sometimes Sabrosura writes about guys injuring her hands and such.
If the victims of a problems became mute, it needs someone else to speak about it.
Specially as the victims usually aren't the tough and loud women. More the more friendly, smiling persons, who don't want to have conflict with anybody. Those, who don't fight back loudly.
And when they try to say something, established people will tell them things like "you gotta toughen up, if you want to dance" or "you surely misunderstood something" or "you would like it, if he was 40 years younger" or "he has done so much for the scene, you should respect him".
All 4 are (translated) quotes from the discussions about that elderly guy I wrote about. And all of them from established women - who are all "the girlfriend / wife / partner / assistant of someone higher than themselves". So if this girl goes to the assistant in her class - an established woman she is in contact with - she actually might hear such things.
I want to quote my girlfriend:
"I don't want to be seen as the girl, who does not dance with someone, just because he is old."
What in this quote didn't you understand?
She does not want to be one of those arrogant girls, who is unfriendly to older people - that's why she hesitates saying "no" as soon as they behave problematically.
She has no problem with older guys and really likes dancing with those, who are experienced and gentle leads. Or with those, who respect her for other things than her pretty body.
A problem is, that many of these guys don't openly misbehave. Instead they create a situation, in which their own behaviour is seen as the socially acceptable. The really problematic are actually socially very skilled - and very good in playing the victim card, when confronted with their behaviour.
On a slightly related tangent: has anyone seen older (say 50+) people actually become good salsa dancers (whatever your criteria for that may be)? Thinking primarily of line style salsa.
I must admit I haven't seen any in my local scene in the five years I've been dancing salsa, despite quite a few taking endless classes and the teachers being high quality. Goes double for leads. There are a few older follows who have become ok, but not more than that.
I must admit I haven't seen any in my local scene in the five years I've been dancing salsa, despite quite a few taking endless classes and the teachers being high quality. Goes double for leads. There are a few older follows who have become ok, but not more than that.
No, but I attribute that to the reason that they started dancing very late. I have a few friends who started dancing in their 40s and I feel bad for them because no matter how hard they try, they will never reach the same level as younger dancers who started in their 20s.
I do know, however, more guys who are approaching 50 and are terrific Salsa dancers. I feel the current crop of middle-aged linear Salsa dancers will age well into their 50s (if they don't retire first). I hope to get there too.
However, at my current rate of decline, I don't see that happening.
Yeah I don't mean people who are already good dancers becoming older - staying good at something is infinitely easier than becoming good at something from scratch!
I know some, who are at least nice to dance with every here and there.
But I cannot tell, how much ballroom experience they bring with them.
I know of some women who started around age 40 who became quite good. But I cannot remember a single one, who started after like age 45.
And all of them have taken other approaches, than the typical group classes.
Yet I know some incredible dancers of high age.
But they are all long time dancers - often from other styles though.
In general, I see very few older Salsa dancers where I am. In the past, I saw more, but they were - to be frank - all raw and beginner.
hosearmando
Changui
MrR, nice rant!
I know several teachers in my scene that privately or even explicitly separate older and younger/student groups / some discourage older people from going to classes completely by telling them they are too old - and that pisses some people off of course - several older people have told me that.
edit: It's hard to say if this is the right thing to do, but that's the situation.
I know several teachers in my scene that privately or even explicitly separate older and younger/student groups / some discourage older people from going to classes completely by telling them they are too old - and that pisses some people off of course - several older people have told me that.
edit: It's hard to say if this is the right thing to do, but that's the situation.
No. And I have always wondered about it. I think the older people don’t let go of inhibitions when learning. They tend to have a lot of doubts. They question a lot. I think they also tend to go out less. The dancing scene is younger. I have heard from middle age ladies in salsa and WCS complain that they feel unwelcomed. To me they simply seem too self-conscious when others are around are younger and better dancers. That they are not better dancers doesn’t help their cause. Older ladies than them who are better dancers, don’t have any problems getting asked by everyone and certainly out more often.
It can become a cycle for any dancer older or younger. You don’t improve. So you don’t get asked much. It is just that olders get more self-conscious and think it is age related.
Dancing is also about social capital. You either have more social capital or be better dancers. People who know more people or have more friends in dance scene, will get unfair share of more dances. When dance scene skews younger, it can be difficult for older dancer to gain social capital. It is true other way too. If dance scene skews older, younger dancers find it harder.
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I thought 45-55 is middle age
with extended life span and people being more active it is said 45-60 is middle age.40-45 is strange. Unless you are twenty, 40-45 neither feels young nor middle age.
Middle age is really short! We are young and for a short while middle aged and then old
MrR, nice rant!
I know several teachers in my scene that privately or even explicitly separate older and younger/student groups / some discourage older people from going to classes completely by telling them they are too old - and that pisses some people off of course - several older people have told me that.
edit: It's hard to say if this is the right thing to do, but that's the situation.
The "too old" really is the problematic question.
But the same people, who think they are discriminated because of their age probably think it is totally ok, for them to go to those cool advanced classes with all those hot chicks and nice young leads as unpaid animation, and keeping the level for the others down.
I genuinely feel bad for the older dancers who try to get good at Salsa but for some reason are unable to raise their level as fast as the younger dancers.
It's true what you say about social capital. You can build your dance credibility simply by being social. That's what some of my friends do.
All of my older dance friends are well connected so they have no problems getting dances. They aren't creepy stalkers. If the scene is a young scene with huge turnover (like mine), then it will become more difficult for them to get dances as they grow older.
It's true what you say about social capital. You can build your dance credibility simply by being social. That's what some of my friends do.
All of my older dance friends are well connected so they have no problems getting dances. They aren't creepy stalkers. If the scene is a young scene with huge turnover (like mine), then it will become more difficult for them to get dances as they grow older.