I have the same problem understanding.. IF the picture matches you but is a recently expired document , what the hell difference does it make !!
Is salsa just for the generation 50+?
- Thread starter TomSchueler
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Two words I never use
WessexSalsero
Changui
Gotcha. Interesting to share our observations and I am with you now:
So far, I am also finding the Hamburg Salsa scene (crossbody as well as Cuban) to be surprisingly senior in age. Certainly compared to the Bachata crowd.
I have found the crossbody dancers in Düsseldorf and Cologne a good mix age-wise but the Cuban crowd in Cologne seemed quite old. Not that it stopped me from enjoying all the tasty Timba!
I think in general you are onto something: Salsa has been around for a long time in Europe, there is no particular reason why the young'uns would want to try it en masse.
Potentially a good question to explore: is there a way to prevent Salsa to turn into Tango in terms of average age? (this is based on my impression that Tango attracts a much older crowd)
WessexSalsero
Changui
I recently came across a medium-sized German town with a remarkably young Salsa crowd, was quite baffled and pretty much asked every follower where she had learnt to dance. The vast majority of them said: Hochschulsport. Basically, the local University offers very popular structured Salsa/Bachata/Kizomba dance courses aimed at the social dance scene, not for the usual competition lark.
TomSchueler
Changui
Unisport or "Hochschulsport" is an interesting phenomenon, a blessing and a curse.
For small money (sometimes 20 euros for three month, one full course!) University students are offered a great variety of different sport courses to make use of in their free time, from yoga to rock climbing, from stand-up paddling to Salsa.
It has certain downsides, though. Courses are usually more fun-oriented than their dance school equivalents (LOTS of rueda de casino) and the teachers are great but usually cannot compete with instructors from the Salsa dance schools. It is a great way to meet people, most students try out Salsa for a bit of time and disappear again after finishing the first course.
From my personal experience in the last years very few students take the leap to more serious dancing after going through the very affordable unisport curriculum (mostly level A1 to F2, meaning absolute beginner to slightly advanced). You see even less students make their way into the Salsa club scene and actually DANCE in public. It must be less than 1% overall ...
To summarize, the entry barrier to give Salsa a shot is quite low - but to make the effort and switch to a proper Salsa school after learning the basics is as well. It definitely is a gift to the Berlin Salsa scene because so many young people try Salsa for the first time in their lives. Also it's a hindrance - if you get a full fledged three-month course for cheap money (and have yet no clue how experienced teachers explain and dance), why would you ever visit a dance school?
Plus, let's be real, especially students prefer dancing with people in the same age group rather than with people who are as old as their parents. It's a great way to find friends, dating partners or just people with whom would never get in contact with in your seminars (see art student meeting IT guy).
Me, I started in Hochschulsport, made my way through the A1 - F2 curriculum, including taking several courses for a couple of times, switched to a proper Salsa school for two years and then to another school. I am a slow learner, I have to admit, but learning to dance takes time. I don't blame anyone not to stay in the game that long, though it would be great to have more young people in the scene.
Sometimes I think, if you have absolutely no previous experience in dance, Salsa is the equivalent to gaining a bachelor degree, time-wise. And a bachelor is only the beginning of a university career.
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hosearmando
Changui
If the entrance to the parties is expensive (like in Austria for example, 5-12euro normally), you are not going to see a lot of young people/students in their 20s. Also if the drinks and pre-party workshops are not cheap, same situation.
It's a big factor why the younger crowd goes elsewhere I think. It's really expensive for a young person/student/out of college (at least here in Austria) to participate in the dance scene.
But compare it to Serbia where I have seen 99% a lot of very young people dancing.
I have seen there also a bunch of free classes in the schools - and this is appealing to younger generation ofc.
In effect this makes the dance scene very young and vibrant.
It's a big factor why the younger crowd goes elsewhere I think. It's really expensive for a young person/student/out of college (at least here in Austria) to participate in the dance scene.
But compare it to Serbia where I have seen 99% a lot of very young people dancing.
I have seen there also a bunch of free classes in the schools - and this is appealing to younger generation ofc.
In effect this makes the dance scene very young and vibrant.
WessexSalsero
Changui
Wow, thanks for taking the time to share these insight, I didn't know that much about this University route into Salsa - apart from the brief, on the floor chat about Hochschulsport!
You say that it is not very effective but then you give us a good example of where it worked pretty well: your good self!
For me, the fact that so many young students at least get a taste (and a fun one at that) for social dancing thanks to the Hochschulsport is absolutely brilliant and a very good start.
I disagree with your theory that more of those students would go on to become 'serious' dancers if only the quality of teaching was higher.
No, Tom, 'serious dancing' is a niche thing with limited appeal, regardless of how amazingly structured the teaching is.
You are right, for the majority of people social dancing is more about the social aspects and the fringe benefits than the dancing.
Don't lament it but build a scene that can accommodate the serious lot as well as the much bigger fun crowd.
I understand the poor student mentality, but are Austrians really that price sensitive? All of the Austrian university kids I know are skiing and snowboarding, which is crazy expensive.
IME, average price of parties in Vienna is 7euros. Highest I’ve seen is 10 euros.
Universities’ extracurricular Salsa clubs exist in Canada as well and they are a great feeder school to the social dance scene.
hosearmando
Changui
Hmm, I know a lot of students who dance in Vienna are are really budget sensitive - also working several jobs and can't really afford a lot of parties.
I know that one of the biggest success in bringing young people to salsa in Vienna was when my friends opened classes that very very affordable for students. A lot of people have joined those classes and I can tell you that the salsa community definitely grew exponentially because of this. Classes which are based on 'pay as much as you want/have' and that are not subscription based - they have really improved the salsa scene in Vienna - and brought a lot of youngsters.
The Cuban crowd in Cologne is a very good example of the age segregation in the scene. There is actually a large, weekly party, frequented by young people. And one, where I feel like in a retirement home. The first one of course in music and dance styles is much more modern than the latter one and has a high fraction of Bachata.
That young and old party together is a myth here. They just sometimes share a venue - and old people who want to feel young can be very annoying quickly.
Let's face it:
I am mid 30s.
In most venues I feel young.
In others I feel old.
In some I feel between the chairs.
There barely is a 30s age group to build the bridge.
Aaaaand ... let's face it, young people don't want to be the meat market goods for the old crowd.
Yes, there are enough old creeps (even creepy old ladies) to make a mixed party very annoying for younger people. Linear Salsa due to it's high distance and often very formalized dancing it is not that problematic, in Cuban-party-Style and Sensual dances, this is an extreme problem.
In Zouk and Bachata classes - both dances show a median under 30 on many parties - the average level in classes is 10-20 years higher than on parties. Most of my younger female friends complain about it. Some more disguised, some even look for the fault to not like it at themselves, some very openly and many stopped taking classes for that reason.
And many of these older people behave greatly disrespectful towards their surroundings. Sexual harassing from both sexes, blackmailing of teachers who want to clean up advanced classes, physical abilities qualifying for a physiotherapist, massively painful dancing behaviours (hand squeezing, finger bending, shoulder twisting) and so on ... daily experiences.
And everyone of these "stayed young" guys (to a lesser extent women) cements the situation.
In areas, where a greater respect for dance partners - often combined with female leading figures and less style fetishism - exists, I have seen a better mixing of the scenes.
Financial reasons seem to have little actual effect.
The parties frequented by younger people seem to be more expensive than those, frequented by older people.
Specially those misbehaving old people have a strong tendency to go where it is cheap. Even many girl hunters can be pushed away by an entrance fee of 10€, despite being in an age, where that should be of little problem. While free parties are appealing for students and I even know girl hunters who use that as a bait, most established free parties I have met are dominated by older crowd.
Even many students I know are willed to invest 50€ per month for a good class - but at that price rate they are very quick to leave, when the girl-hunters and physiotherapist-denials appear.
Specially the better dancers often are very invested dancers and have that as a prime hobby. And many students easily pay 20+€ per night of partying in non dancing, too. The price barrier may be important on festivals though.
And last but not least:
Many of the long years established parties play a style of music, that was seen as "the right way" when the DJ got in contact with it - mostly in the 90s.
It's "parent's generation music" and they are very stuck to that kind. A backwardness, I have not seen in Spain for example.
Parties largely frequented by younger people play much more in the fields of Latin Pop, remixes etc. Specially Bachata is very open to that.
If people nowadays get in contact to Salsa during their Spain or south/middle America holidays, they will not recognize what is played at quite some dance school, oldschool or NY Style party here as "Salsa".
Don't you guys think the type of music played at clubs has quite a big impact?
I see events called "latin party" but in reality they're more of social dance events where people go out to dance the moves they learned at their dance studio... Some have a separate dance floor for reggaeton and a separate one for salsa&bachata, which causes the younger crowd to choose the reggaeton crowd since they get intimidated by all the advanced dancers.
If i just go out to dance, i prefer pure salsa and bachata, but if i go out to party i prefer it to be a mix. I like reggaeton but pure reggaeton becomes unbearable after a while... I guess a lot of salsa dancers don't even like it at all and want the place to be pure salsa which is understandable.
Mabe those kinds of places should have one that is pure salsa/bachata for the trained dancers, and one that has mixed music for the younger crowd. Then they would at least be exposed to salsa instead of just reggaeton
I see events called "latin party" but in reality they're more of social dance events where people go out to dance the moves they learned at their dance studio... Some have a separate dance floor for reggaeton and a separate one for salsa&bachata, which causes the younger crowd to choose the reggaeton crowd since they get intimidated by all the advanced dancers.
If i just go out to dance, i prefer pure salsa and bachata, but if i go out to party i prefer it to be a mix. I like reggaeton but pure reggaeton becomes unbearable after a while... I guess a lot of salsa dancers don't even like it at all and want the place to be pure salsa which is understandable.
Mabe those kinds of places should have one that is pure salsa/bachata for the trained dancers, and one that has mixed music for the younger crowd. Then they would at least be exposed to salsa instead of just reggaeton
WessexSalsero
Changui
Come on, be nice to those old people who want to feel young - unless they want to feel up the young
Sorry...could not resist.
Lol also at the physio sensual reference, I am glad I am not the only one who can see the parallels!
Thanks for a detailed, fascinating post about something that I have also found quite strange.
When you say the music and dance styles are much more 'modern', what do you mean?
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Re. Spain I am not qualified to comment but I can assure you that in Colombia, particularly but not exclusively in Cali, real salsa music is alive and well, ranging from the music from way back when (pre-salsa in fact) to today's quality new releases, with everything in between, as long as it's real salsa. Probably not exactly the same music as 'what is played at quite some dance school, oldschool or NY Style party here' but if you think salsa in S America is all about pop remixes and English language garbage then you're way off the mark.
