I'm flipped

[songname]

May be it is not for you. Or you haven’t yet figured out creating connection and hearing the music at the same time.

You are with your own comments proving the point that those who find salsa difficult gravitate to BS

Your comments were not directed at me but they resonate with my own questions leading up to this "I'm flipped" attitude. It's true that conversing on forums it's impossible to know someone's level of actual implementation of their opinions without seeing them dance. I'm sure most often then if we would see someone dance they will appear to fall short. Probably because I only watch good dancers and I've gotten used to that. So I kinda' assume everyone who comes across as having an educated opinion on salsa is at least my level or higher or much higher, and then have to keep reminding myself this is not the case. I've been very hard on myself with salsa, I'm my biggest critic. While there are certainly holes in my game, I feel I've satisfied my salsa goals. I refuse to pursue perfection and more patterns (can't remember them anyways anymore) and mimicking the "right" body movement. My growth in salsa is now from the inside, my inside. And I often find myself improvising a figure spontaneously (when dancing with good connection) and registering that it's the first time I've done it, immediately followed by "I think I've seen this before but never practiced it", followed by "Sh1t I couldn't pull this off again if I wanted to". I'm a social dancer not a performer. So when I say I'm moving to other dances it's not because I couldn't hack salsa. It's because the other dances offer more opportunity for creativity and expression through a better connection with the follower. It could be argued that it's because the music is slower, or because it's an easier dance so more followers are attracted to it so there's a larger pool of people for good followers to emerge from. I think the reason comes from style. There are things that are acceptable in the other dances that are conducive to connection that are not acceptable in salsa. I've demonstrated close embrace and apilado to some salseras and they were very uncomfortable with it.

That said I always argue salsa is the hardest dance. Harder than tango. Simply because of the complexity of the music and because everything you do has to fit within it. In tango you just do whatever you want, the rhythm is so simple, and phrasing is easily distinguishable. But the actual leading is more complex.. dissociation etc. As a matter of fact one of the most difficult concepts to implement is that in a sense a leader is actually following half the time.

 

[MamboJazz]

Very interesting thread, which started just yesterday evening and I already come late. Too many things, I just answer some.

Because of this experience I started dancing more bachata and dabbling in zouk and kizomba. I can say now that the connection I get with my partners in those dances is way more rewarding than salsa. Leading (pun intended) to better musicality, awareness, expression.

There is widespread consensus that an average western salsa dancefloor is painful to watch regarding musicality. And people started looking elsewhere finding inspiration. So I do some WCS and BS, but yeah - the music drives us back.

Too many salsa djs seem to want to play songs that feel more like they’re setting you a test to see if you can manage to interpret the music, the changes of rhythm, the random breaks, sometimes the difficulty in hearing the 2 & 6 - this is especially the case with some salsa dura which djs just seem to love but I’m getting really tired of dancing to it. I just can’t focus on building a connection with my partner because I have to focus on listening to the music and trying to predict it instead.

This isn’t the case with BS and most kizomba. The beat is clear, the rhythm is consistent, and it’s super clear when the breaks are coming. I can really focus on connecting with my partner and I’m really enjoying that.

Can you give examples of songs that fit the above description? We have no way of knowing if the DJs are playing music that is not danceable, or you're lost with music that has any degree of complexity to it. Complexity can give music depth and make it interesting to listen to.

The last days I was listening a lot of Ismael Rivera - so beautiful songs! But really hard to dance good to it, as the breaks and changes are not to predict if you don't know the song already quite well. I think this is the salsa dura he refers to, often played at european congresses. It's a great target to master for the very advanced, and I will try, but play this on a local dancefloor and people will flee towards the bachata floor. The problem is even bigger because salseros are not taught musicality - you are left on your own to find out, and that takes a lot of time and effort. When they don't know how to hit an easy predictable accent, how should they master dancing to really complex music?

On one occasion during solo musicality class, one guy loudly complained that he came to dance with girls and not to do solo

It's well-known dance beginners come to meet the other gender, not for the dance or the music. But instructors could start teaching musicality in partnerwork to solve that problem. When followers accept an invitation to dance they are not hoping the guy is good in shines but they hope he is good in leading.

Finally an example how it can be. It's easy to find WCS videos explaining musicality and how to hit the breaks. This one explains it well (don't worry, the music played is a nice blues). Interestingly the same musical patterns exist in salsa, but is there any video about this? Salsa teachers do as most people do: they just do what they always have done, not trying to find new ways. But I feel the time is right for a change.

 

[FranzFan]

Can you give examples of songs that fit the above description? We have no way of knowing if the DJs are playing music that is not danceable, or you're lost with music that has any degree of complexity to it. Complexity can give music depth and make it interesting to listen to.



BS music is an art form? That's hilarious. It blatantly isn't. Or do you mean the dance? It's possibly not quite as bad as the music, but it's really not an art form either.

I'm not here to have a debate about what is and isn't art That's for philosophy PhDs. But I am pretty sure that a genre of music shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. It evidently has a massive audience, which means it is resonating with people. Do I like Ed Sheeran? No. But I appreciate that what he does is some kind of art and it resonates with people.

As for the kind of dura songs I'm talking about, I just don't know the names of any (I don't know the names of many salsa songs full stop!) I just recognise a lot. If you are familiar with DJ Martina - who plays a lot of congresses in Europe now - then I'd say the music she prefers is a good example of the kind I'm talking about. She did a set at Back2Mambo last year which was basically hours of it. Lots of rhythm changes and usually dura. To be clear this is nothing at all against her - actually it's great to see a young female DJ coming up. But I do really struggle to dance to that kind of music and enjoy it, and I'd imagine people getting into salsa for the first time would struggle also.

Eg I danced with some improvers at a recent event where this kind of music was playing and they were totally and utterly lost after 7 or 8 × rhythm changes in a lot of the songs. I couldn't blame them for not wanting to dance socially again.

 

[FranzFan]

Actually I thought of a semi-good example. It's not traditional dura but gives the idea: The first minute of Pa' Bravo Yo.

It has lots of rhythm changes and I find it's difficult to enjoy dancing to. You just settle into a rhythm and then it changes. Thereafter the song settles into a pattern so it's not the best example overall, but the kind of songs I'm talking about go on with this unpredictability the whole way through. Am at a congress this weekend so will see if I can Shazam any better examples for the DJs out there.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

If you are familiar with DJ Martina

Yes, she plays a lot of my kind of music.

One of my new favorites is DJ Gia, who plays hardcore Dura.

I love rhythmical changes, hearing layers upon layers of instruments and playing with percussion.

It’s not necessary for me to be with a partner who is equally as into the music as I am for me to enjoy the dance. I can lead my partner through any kind of rhythmical change and it’s a pleasure to do so. So long as my partner isn’t completely oblivious to it, a connection can be established.

The other type of connection where both partners are completely into each other’s movements and even switching roles, is something that doesn’t appeal to everyone. I can do it in spurts, but I have a limit to how much I can do before I start wishing for my independence. This would fall under new age-y Salsa with more Elevator type Salsa music and there is a crowd that indulges in this and is growing.

I agree that Salsa is harder on the beginner ears. But those of us who love it won’t ever wish it to be dumbed down and I’m glad there’s a demand for it still on the dance circuits I frequent.

 

[MamboJazz]

Actually I thought of a semi-good example. It's not traditional dura but gives the idea: The first minute of Pa' Bravo Yo.

Yes, I see, typical 70s dura opening. The accent at 0:43 can be sensed for advanced ears, the other accents you need to know (or you are so advanced, then you also know the song). The first minute is tough, and beginners would give up before the song becomes more stable.

But a congress like Back2Mambo is meant for very advanced dancers who love this. It would be foolish to send beginners/improvers there. Some segregation is meaningful. On the contrary side I recently was at the practica of a dancing school, and as much as I like Frankie Ruiz the DJ played from him "Bailando" - that's a meh song, but it's ok for beginners to learn, so I don't complain. The problem arises when the DJ plays for his two buddies on the floor, the instructors, and all the students then leave for the bachata floor.

 

[DJ Yuca]

I'm not here to have a debate about what is and isn't art That's for philosophy PhDs. But I am pretty sure that a genre of music shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. It evidently has a massive audience, which means it is resonating with people.

The only bachata sensual music I know of is formulaic, generic, disposable garbage. And it doesn't have a massive audience.

 

[Governor Moonbeam]

Too many salsa djs seem to want to play songs that feel more like they’re setting you a test to see if you can manage to interpret the music, the changes of rhythm, the random breaks, sometimes the difficulty in hearing the 2 & 6 - this is especially the case with some salsa dura which djs just seem to love but I’m getting really tired of dancing to it. I just can’t focus on building a connection with my partner because I have to focus on listening to the music and trying to predict it instead.

You should try going to a cuban/casino social where they play 100% timba

 

[DJ Yuca]

As for the kind of dura songs I'm talking about, I just don't know the names of any (I don't know the names of many salsa songs full stop!) I just recognise a lot. If you are familiar with DJ Martina - who plays a lot of congresses in Europe now - then I'd say the music she prefers is a good example of the kind I'm talking about. She did a set at Back2Mambo last year which was basically hours of it. Lots of rhythm changes and usually dura. To be clear this is nothing at all against her - actually it's great to see a young female DJ coming up. But I do really struggle to dance to that kind of music and enjoy it, and I'd imagine people getting into salsa for the first time would struggle also.

I don't go to congresses, and the music I hear on videos of congresses I often find good but not amazing. Of DJ Martina in particular I know literally zero, so that's certainly no comment about her.

One of the beauties of salsa is the variety, and that also makes it more palatable to an audience. Do most DJs take advantage of the variety within the genre? Possibly not. That's a weakness of the scene not the music and dance.

However if someone can't dance to salsa dura then I think their teachers are not teaching them very well. Also as dancers ultimately we are responsible for our own learning. For example you mention 'rhythm changes'. Do you mean clave changes? One or 2 clave changes in a song really aren't hard to deal with.

 

[FranzFan]

Yes, I see, typical 70s dura opening. The accent at 0:43 can be sensed for advanced ears, the other accents you need to know (or you are so advanced, then you also know the song). The first minute is tough, and beginners would give up before the song becomes more stable.

But a congress like Back2Mambo is meant for very advanced dancers who love this. It would be foolish to send beginners/improvers there. Some segregation is meaningful. On the contrary side I recently was at the practica of a dancing school, and as much as I like Frankie Ruiz the DJ played from him "Bailando" - that's a meh song, but it's ok for beginners to learn, so I don't complain. The problem arises when the DJ plays for his two buddies on the floor, the instructors, and all the students then leave for the bachata floor.

Yeah you're right, B2M is definitely a good place for that kind of music, and I totally understand why it's played there. My issue is more that iny local scene I find this music is commonly played at every event, regardless of the level of dancer, and I feel it can't be helping to grow the scene

 

[DJ Yuca]

The last days I was listening a lot of Ismael Rivera - so beautiful songs! But really hard to dance good to it, as the breaks and changes are not to predict if you don't know the song already quite well. I think this is the salsa dura he refers to, often played at european congresses. It's a great target to master for the very advanced, and I will try, but play this on a local dancefloor and people will flee towards the bachata floor. The problem is even bigger because salseros are not taught musicality - you are left on your own to find out, and that takes a lot of time and effort. When they don't know how to hit an easy predictable accent, how should they master dancing to really complex music?

Can you give a couple of examples of Ismael Rivera songs that you consider really hard to dance well to? Funnily enough in Cali, where the majority of people are untrained and do a very basic dance, he's massively popular and I'm sure no one considers his music difficult to dance to. That's not just due to people growing up exposed to his music but also because the most common form of salsa dance here is quite simple. Although I expect the minority who take classes also find his music easy to dance to.

 

[FranzFan]

I don't go to congresses, and the music I hear on videos of congresses I often find good but not amazing. Of DJ Martina in particular I know literally zero, so that's certainly no comment about her.

One of the beauties of salsa is the variety, and that also makes it more palatable to an audience. Do most DJs take advantage of the variety within the genre? Possibly not. That's a weakness of the scene not the music and dance.

However if someone can't dance to salsa dura then I think their teachers are not teaching them very well. Also as dancers ultimately we are responsible for our own learning. For example you mention 'rhythm changes'. Do you mean clave changes? One or 2 clave changes in a song really aren't hard to deal with.

Yeah I agree with you that it is largely an issue of teaching (back to my earlier point about how teachers just do patterns and really that's a small part of mastering salsa). I wish more teachers trained students both how to listen to music and how to deal with things like rhythm changes which aren't natural to inexperienced dancers.

And yes, I was referring to clave changes. Agree 1-2 per song is no issue. But some songs change every 30 seconds which personally I don't enjoy, though I understand some do!

 

[DJ Yuca]

Actually I thought of a semi-good example. It's not traditional dura but gives the idea: The first minute of Pa' Bravo Yo.

It has lots of rhythm changes and I find it's difficult to enjoy dancing to. You just settle into a rhythm and then it changes. Thereafter the song settles into a pattern so it's not the best example overall, but the kind of songs I'm talking about go on with this unpredictability the whole way through. Am at a congress this weekend so will see if I can Shazam any better examples for the DJs out there.

No offence but I feel like someone who's spent their whole life eating McDonalds is explaining to me why they can't eat vegetables.

Without the breaks it wouldn't be such an iconic song. And the breaks mostly mark the 3 side of the clave - if you are unfamiliar with the clave then you don't know salsa. There is a very early clave change, but again, your teachers should explain how to dance to a clave change. And if they don't then do a search on here and you'll find suggestions. Clave changes make the music more powerful so to see them as a negative is missing the point.

Incidentally for me that's traditional salsa dura.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Agree 1-2 per song is no issue. But some songs change every 30 seconds which personally I don't enjoy, though I understand some do!

Do you have an example of such a track? I wouldn't consider a tune that has clave changes every 30 seconds to be ideal for dancing, although when the clave changes are so common it's often best to ignore them. Again, something that should be taught in classes.

 

[FranzFan]

Yes, she plays a lot of my kind of music.

One of my new favorites is DJ Gia, who plays hardcore Dura.

I love rhythmical changes, hearing layers upon layers of instruments and playing with percussion.

It’s not necessary for me to be with a partner who is equally as into the music as I am for me to enjoy the dance. I can lead my partner through any kind of rhythmical change and it’s a pleasure to do so. So long as my partner isn’t completely oblivious to it, a connection can be established.

The other type of connection where both partners are completely into each other’s movements and even switching roles, is something that doesn’t appeal to everyone. I can do it in spurts, but I have a limit to how much I can do before I start wishing for my independence. This would fall under new age-y Salsa with more Elevator type Salsa music and there is a crowd that indulges in this and is growing.

I agree that Salsa is harder on the beginner ears. But those of us who love it won’t ever wish it to be dumbed down and I’m glad there’s a demand for it still on the dance circuits I frequent.

I guess it's a good example of how different people enjoy different things, which is one of the joys of salsa.

My main point in all of this is not that I'm against this kind of music (I understand for some it's their favourite genre), but that teachers need to teach students how to dance to it and DJs need to be aware of the level of the crowd they're playing for, because I do think it's challenging for most dancers until they are at advanced level.

Until that happens I can understand why beginners start to favour more accessible styles such as bachata, which is a shame for all us salseros

 

[DJ Yuca]

Yeah you're right, B2M is definitely a good place for that kind of music, and I totally understand why it's played there. My issue is more that iny local scene I find this music is commonly played at every event, regardless of the level of dancer, and I feel it can't be helping to grow the scene

That may be because many promoters put very little thought into the music that gets played at their events.

 

[FranzFan]

Do you have an example of such a track? I wouldn't consider a tune that has clave changes every 30 seconds to be ideal for dancing, although when the clave changes are so common it's often best to ignore them. Again, something that should be taught in classes.

The next time I hear a song like this I'll try to Shazam it and let you know

 

[Humpa]

Actually I thought of a semi-good example. It's not traditional dura but gives the idea: The first minute of Pa' Bravo Yo.

It has lots of rhythm changes and I find it's difficult to enjoy dancing to. You just settle into a rhythm and then it changes. Thereafter the song settles into a pattern so it's not the best example overall, but the kind of songs I'm talking about go on with this unpredictability the whole way through. Am at a congress this weekend so will see if I can Shazam any better examples for the DJs out there.

Not to mention the complex lyrics: Pa' bravo who? Sorry, I hear a few breaks in the beginning of the song but hardly any changes in the rythm. I'm into Cuban Timba and for me the song is just anoyingly dull.

I completely understand that the complexity of this polyrhythmic music can scare beginners but I don't think that a scene reduced to the lowest common denominator would be successfull. Beginners may dance 1 - 2 years to practise their 1-2-3 5-6-7 patterns but then get just get bored.

Do you generally enjoy listening to Salsa music, both the simple one you like to dance with and the one you perceive as too difficult to dance to?


With respect to the initial post: I need both, connection to music as well as connection to the dance partner. In the best case you share the feeling of the music while playing with your partner. If I do not enjoy the music, I feel it very difficult t connect with the dance partner. I also cannot say that I better connect with a dance partner if the music is slower or simpler. That's not even necessarily the case with beginners.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Yes, I see, typical 70s dura opening. The accent at 0:43 can be sensed for advanced ears, the other accents you need to know (or you are so advanced, then you also know the song). The first minute is tough

It's really not.

But a congress like Back2Mambo is meant for very advanced dancers who love this.

In the congress vids I see it's very, very rare to hear a salsa classic like Pa'bravo yo. It seems if the tune isn't expensive to purchase, most DJs don't want to play it.

But a congress like Back2Mambo is meant for very advanced dancers who love this. It would be foolish to send beginners/improvers there.

I disagree. With a few good basic moves a lead can dance to danceable salsa dura or mambo. If a follower is a beginner a lead should notice and tailor the dance accordingly.

On the contrary side I recently was at the practica of a dancing school, and as much as I like Frankie Ruiz the DJ played from him "Bailando" - that's a meh song, but it's ok for beginners to learn, so I don't complain.

That's the opposite extreme. He has so many good tracks it's a shame to resort to that one. However ultimately one track is more or less irrelevant, it's the music as a whole that counts.

 

[MamboJazz]

Can you give a couple of examples of Ismael Rivera songs that you consider really hard to dance well to? Funnily enough in Cali, where the majority of people are untrained and do a very basic dance, he's massively popular and I'm sure no one considers his music difficult to dance to. That's not just due to people growing up exposed to his music but also because the most common form of salsa dance here is quite simple. Although I expect the minority who take classes also find his music easy to dance to.

An easy one to dance to would be "Dime por que" - maybe that's what gets played in Cali?

I had in mind other apparently classics like (as I said I just started hearing him, he doesn't seem to get played on my local floors):

El Nazareno
Las caras lindas
Incomprendido

"Las caras lindas" doesn't seem to have clave changes, so you could just dance through basic step, which is ok but for me wouldn't reflect the complex song. "Incomprendido" has so many accents (e.g when he sings "yo, yo, yo, yo"), that without reflecting them you miss the beauty of the song. "El Nazareno" is complex as well (or complex as hell): you need to be very good to get this beast handled well. No wonder Fadi Fusion & Sophia Safran did mostly solo dancing the first complex minute, and reflect the complexity of all accents incredibly good. Of course you can also dance to it like the couples at the left, that's ok, but it doesn't reflect the song.