I'm flipped

[songname]

Hi salseros and @Sabrosura,

I've been an avid salsero (dancing with knowledge) for 6 years now. I love salsa music on many levels (being a Spanish speaker), it truly makes me want to dance. But I've been frustrated for some time now, feeling unappreciated as a leader, wham bam thank you mam type of deal.

During this time I scoffed at sensual bachata, zouk, kizomba, even tango to a degree, you know.. sh1t music, cringy movements. I've been doing tango intensely for 10 months now. Still don't like %70 of the tango music (I prefer to dance to Nuevo or alternative.) but I'm in love with the dance. It's pushed my salsa dance/leading to another level without ever practicing something new in salsa.

Because of this experience I started dancing more bachata and dabbling in zouk and kizomba. I can say now that the connection I get with my partners in those dances is way more rewarding than salsa. Leading (pun intended) to better musicality, awareness, expression.

I dance socially 5-6 times a week, of it %75 is now not salsa. On some nights I'll do a tango then salsa event. They complement nicely, tango takes little energy compared to salsa. Salsa is like exercise to burn off steam now. Now I'm aware there are very few followers in salsa who offer a real connection. Often the fault lies with the music, DJs for some reason rarely play songs below 90bpm, resulting in a faster pace dance that gravitates towards established patterns which everyone seems to be slaves to and very hard to break out of. Connection is mostly only through the hands. The good followers in the other dances I mentioned come ready to connect and play. It's much more rewarding.

Sabrosura had a point and I was ignorant. Music is till sh1t though I'll probably hit West coast swing at some point.

 

[songname]

 

[Offbeat]

Hi salseros and @Sabrosura,

I've been an avid salsero (dancing with knowledge) for 6 years now. I love salsa music on many levels (being a Spanish speaker), it truly makes me want to dance. But I've been frustrated for some time now, feeling unappreciated as a leader, wham bam thank you mam type of deal.

During this time I scoffed at sensual bachata, zouk, kizomba, even tango to a degree, you know.. sh1t music, cringy movements. I've been doing tango intensely for 10 months now. Still don't like %70 of the tango music (I prefer to dance to Nuevo or alternative.) but I'm in love with the dance. It's pushed my salsa dance/leading to another level without ever practicing something new in salsa.

Because of this experience I started dancing more bachata and dabbling in zouk and kizomba. I can say now that the connection I get with my partners in those dances is way more rewarding than salsa. Leading (pun intended) to better musicality, awareness, expression.

I dance socially 5-6 times a week, of it %75 is now not salsa. On some nights I'll do a tango then salsa event. They complement nicely, tango takes little energy compared to salsa. Salsa is like exercise to burn off steam now. Now I'm aware there are very few followers in salsa who offer a real connection. Often the fault lies with the music, DJs for some reason rarely play songs below 90bpm, resulting in a faster pace dance that gravitates towards established patterns which everyone seems to be slaves to and very hard to break out of. Connection is mostly only through the hands. The good followers in the other dances I mentioned come ready to connect and play. It's much more rewarding.

Sabrosura had a point and I was ignorant. Music is till sh1t though I'll probably hit West coast swing at some point.

To each his own.

I neither like most of the neuvo music (modern tango is okay but neuvo is anything goes) nor like dancing nuevo (which to me is like doing patterns in salsa). Neuvo had its peak in late 2000s and isn’t as popular with tango dancers. At its peak too, it never surpassed the traditional tango. Compared to traditional tango, to me connection in neuvo is no different than in salsa. Only the music tempo is slower.

I don’t compare my connections across tango, WCS, blues, or salsa. They are all different. You can have great connections and crappy connection in each depending on who you are dancing (all other things being equal). In terms of volume too, the distribution of good versus crappy connection is almost the same across all those dances for me.

Slow tempo music of the rest and fast tempo of salsa requires and creates different way of connection. Salsa people are too worried about being on the beat and on the time to have any space left in the head for creating a connection. That is not to say you don’t have to be on the beat or on time. It means you don’t need to compulsively step every beat. You can if you want hold off on stepping on the beats to do something else (new agey dancers often do that) and then step correctly on the beat when you want to move. Some of my most connected and memorable salsa dances were to 20 minute long live band where for most of them time we were dancing apart and shines. You feed off energy of both the band as well as your partner. Granted you can’t get that connection with any follower or leader. They have to be good and then you have to have that elusive dance chemistry with them.

One of the most connected dance that I seen as an outside observer was Oliver Pineda social dancing with a non-celeb follower (while her BF was also watching). To everyone watching it was so clear that his connection was off the hook. I have watched many very good musical tango and WCS dances, but in terms of connection I can’t think any that standout as much as that particular Oliver dance.

I don’t dance BS and never did. But I have danced bachata and had some amazing connections in it too.

As a leader, my personal take is certain followers respond in a way when dancing in a close hold dances like bachata and tango, that makes you feel a super connection. That’s more function of the close hold than the dance itself. To give a different analogy you might feel more connected to a person when they talk to you in language A than language B. That’s the function of the language, the person is still the same. You feel like their personality has changed. It hasn’t.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Salsa is like exercise to burn off steam now. Now I'm aware there are very few followers in salsa who offer a real connection. Often the fault lies with the music, DJs for some reason rarely play songs below 90bpm, resulting in a faster pace dance that gravitates towards established patterns which everyone seems to be slaves to and very hard to break out of. Connection is mostly only through the hands. The good followers in the other dances I mentioned come ready to connect and play. It's much more rewarding.

Exactly what I've been saying, and Terence was saying years ago when I first got into dancing salsa: the slower tracks offer a better chance to interpret the music.

I've been doing tango intensely for 10 months now. Still don't like %70 of the tango music (I prefer to dance to Nuevo or alternative.) but I'm in love with the dance. It's pushed my salsa dance/leading to another level without ever practicing something new in salsa.

Terence said some years ago that Argentinean tango was the dance he most recommended to improve your skills in other dances. (I suspect he might not have been too keen on nuevo/alternative music though.)

 

[DJ Yuca]

Sabrosura had a point and I was ignorant.

She recommended tango?

 

[Offbeat]

Terence said some years ago that Argentinean tango was the dance he most recommended to improve your skills in other dances. (I suspect he might not have been too keen on nuevo/alternative music though.)

It is most challenging to master. Salsa is most forgiving and tango is least forgiving. Your shortcomings get magnified in Tango.

Most tango dancers struggle dancing to milonga tanda which has a much faster tempo. Actually knowing salsa makes you a better milonga dancer. Many tango dancers dance the vals tanda (Argentine tango version of 6/8 waltz music) like they are dancing tango.

 

[DJ Yuca]

It is most challenging to master. Salsa is most forgiving and tango is least forgiving. Your shortcomings get magnified in Tango.

Most tango dancers struggle dancing to milonga tanda which has a much faster tempo. Actually knowing salsa makes you a better milonga dancer. Many tango dancers dance the vals tanda (Argentine tango version of 6/8 waltz music) like they are dancing tango.

I think waltz music is by definition 3/4. The vals tanda may well be 6/8 though, as 6/8 is very popular in African music and from there in rumba and Latin jazz. I love 6/8 so maybe some vals tanda will finally get me into tango music.

 

[Governor Moonbeam]

Governor Moonbeam wept when the singer's voice cracked in the 2nd video.

 

[songname]

Most tango dancers struggle dancing to milonga tanda which has a much faster tempo.

I regularly refer to Milonga as salsa for white people I'm not a fan.. for now. When refusing to dance it I reply "If I want to dance a fast paced open dance I'd rather do salsa". But I do love tango vals, and want to learn to dance it properly, not just adapt tango steps.

 

[sunsoul]

The other night a follow said she wanted me to use my hands more for bachata. For bachata sensual it is increasingly focused on combos, patterns and the hands. For kizomba and probably tango you have more of a constant connection, I think.

 

[Offbeat]

I regularly refer to Milonga as salsa for white people I'm not a fan.. for now. When refusing to dance it I reply "If I want to dance a fast paced open dance I'd rather do salsa". But I do love tango vals, and want to learn to dance it properly, not just adapt tango steps.

To me Milonga, Vals, and Tango are best danced in close embrace. It is very rare for me to run into a follower who doesn’t want to dance in close embrace. Close embrace also makes leading easier (a different topic since learning how to lead in close embrace needs a lot of work and practice). I enjoy a good milonga tanda far more than any other tandas.

Milonga was was forerunner of the Tango music. It shares the same rhythmic origins in habenera as the salsa music. Back before tango, there was significant black presence in Argentina and Uruguay. It is believed it is the blacks of 19th century Argentina/Uruguay who danced milonga. All the black contribution in development of tango has been white washed (a different topic that is often debated) or downplayed. Therefore it is ironic you think it is salsa for white peole

 

[Offbeat]

The other night a follow said she wanted me to use my hands more for bachata. For bachata sensual it is increasingly focused on combos, patterns and the hands. For kizomba and probably tango you have more of a constant connection, I think.

Urban Kizomba is danced in open hold with patterns and sequences like in neuvo. I think urban Kizomba is more popular now than when Kizomba initially started out as a close embrace dance.

 

[FranzFan]

Hi salseros and @Sabrosura,

I've been an avid salsero (dancing with knowledge) for 6 years now. I love salsa music on many levels (being a Spanish speaker), it truly makes me want to dance. But I've been frustrated for some time now, feeling unappreciated as a leader, wham bam thank you mam type of deal.

During this time I scoffed at sensual bachata, zouk, kizomba, even tango to a degree, you know.. sh1t music, cringy movements. I've been doing tango intensely for 10 months now. Still don't like %70 of the tango music (I prefer to dance to Nuevo or alternative.) but I'm in love with the dance. It's pushed my salsa dance/leading to another level without ever practicing something new in salsa.

Because of this experience I started dancing more bachata and dabbling in zouk and kizomba. I can say now that the connection I get with my partners in those dances is way more rewarding than salsa. Leading (pun intended) to better musicality, awareness, expression.

I dance socially 5-6 times a week, of it %75 is now not salsa. On some nights I'll do a tango then salsa event. They complement nicely, tango takes little energy compared to salsa. Salsa is like exercise to burn off steam now. Now I'm aware there are very few followers in salsa who offer a real connection. Often the fault lies with the music, DJs for some reason rarely play songs below 90bpm, resulting in a faster pace dance that gravitates towards established patterns which everyone seems to be slaves to and very hard to break out of. Connection is mostly only through the hands. The good followers in the other dances I mentioned come ready to connect and play. It's much more rewarding.

Sabrosura had a point and I was ignorant. Music is till sh1t though I'll probably hit West coast swing at some point.

I couldn't agree more with you. Im an avid salsero but have been doing more BS and kizomba over the last two years. I find that the music is much easier to create a connection with.

Too many salsa djs seem to want to play songs that feel more like they’re setting you a test to see if you can manage to interpret the music, the changes of rhythm, the random breaks, sometimes the difficulty in hearing the 2 & 6 - this is especially the case with some salsa dura which djs just seem to love but I’m getting really tired of dancing to it. I just can’t focus on building a connection with my partner because I have to focus on listening to the music and trying to predict it instead.

This isn’t the case with BS and most kizomba. The beat is clear, the rhythm is consistent, and it’s super clear when the breaks are coming. I can really focus on connecting with my partner and I’m really enjoying that.

There are some (imo) quite snobby attitudes to BS in the salsa community, and I see them on this forum too. Sure, the music is not as complex rhythmically, and it’s more superficial. But it’s an art form in its own right, even if the rules are simpler. I don’t see the issue with that. I’d also say that BS in particular is really very technical at more advanced levels and learning the movements is really helping my salsa - especially romantica songs.

I do love dancing salsa romantica more than anything, but sadly many djs seem to think it’s a lower form of salsa somehow and I don’t hear it enough. I can see why salsa is losing popularity vs other dances. We need to become more accessible and learn from BS, kizomba, WCS etc. sadly I feel we often just look down on them

 

[Offbeat]

find that the music is much easier to create a connection with.

You are admitting to your own shortcomings and inability to connect when music tempo is faster.

Too many salsa djs seem to want to play songs that feel more like they’re setting you a test to see if you can manage to interpret the music, the changes of rhythm, the random breaks, sometimes the difficulty in hearing the 2 & 6 - this is especially the case with some salsa dura which djs just seem to love

That’s because hardcore dancers demand that type of music and like it. On the other hands from all the reports common Latin folks for whom salsa is part of their cultural, like romantica salsa. Different regions and categories have varying preferences on the type of music they like dancing too

but I’m getting really tired of dancing to it. I just can’t focus on building a connection with my partner because I have to focus on listening to the music and trying to predict it instead.

May be it is not for you. Or you haven’t yet figured out creating connection and hearing the music at the same time.

This isn’t the case with BS and most kizomba. The beat is clear, the rhythm is consistent, and it’s super clear when the breaks are coming. I can really focus on connecting with my partner and I’m really enjoying that.

You can then stick to them.

There are some (imo) quite snobby attitudes to BS in the salsa community, and I see them on this forum too.

Why would you expect salsa dancers to look kindly at a foreign dance? What’s with the victimhood?

BS has been trying to leach of salsa scene for a very long time. WCS, tango, fusion or other dance community don’t try to do that. So BS is more like a parasite.

If you tell someone eating fast food often that they should try to eat healthy, they might feel being looked down upon or people saying so are snobby.

From pure dancing point of view (without comparing to salsa or any other dance), there is plenty legit critic of BS - both the music and the dance itself (the same with zouk, but not the Brazilian zouk which is danced differently). Many people used to smoke in 60s and 70s. It was popular. It didn’t lend those who were critics of the habit any less credible because smoking was popular.

You are with your own comments proving the point that those who find salsa difficult gravitate to BS.

WCS etc. sadly I feel we often just look down on them

To me outside of BS and Kizomba, WCS sometimes plays most crappy music to dance to when they get into adult contemporary and the music that is better to put on when you want to fall asleep. However the blues, big band, and the other music WCS was danced to is very interesting. That still gets played at WCS as well as popular pop, rock, hip hop, and anything that is flavor of the day. They will dance to practically any music. Only music I haven’t seen played at WCS is salsa Lindy hop on the other hand sticks to music that’s good for swing dancing.

P.S. - whether it is zouk, BS, or ceroc, Europeans seem to excel at inventing mind numbing dances

 

[FranzFan]

You are admitting to your own shortcomings and inability to connect when music tempo is faster.

I think this might be an example of the kind of attitude I was talking about in my post

 

[Amun]

This posts resonates with me. I have many shortcomings myself when it comes to salsa but I feel like finding a lead around my own level who's not just patterns patterns and a showing off is near impossible. Lately I don't feel like I'm dancing, it feels like staged and 100x times already seen choreography. I'm having a break at the moment and for the first time, the longer my salsa time off is the more I feel like it's time to move to something else.

 

[FranzFan]

This posts resonates with me. I have many shortcomings myself when it comes to salsa but I feel like finding a lead around my own level who's not just patterns patterns and a showing off is near impossible. Lately I don't feel like I'm dancing, it feels like staged and 100x times already seen choreography. I'm having a break at the moment and for the first time, the longer my salsa time off is the more I feel like it's time to move to something else.

Totally agree

I Went to a salsa class last night where the teacher just taught a pattern with very little technique, way too many steps for the length of the session so no-one could really understand it anyway, zero focus on musicality or improvisation. Just hammering out a pattern. Sadly this seems to be the template for a lot of salsa classes - probably the majority I've been to in lots of different schools and countries.

I truly wonder why teachers don't think about a more holistic curriculum that is equal parts: patterns, musicality, footwork, building connection. But most teachers are 90% on patterns.

Afterwards I went to a bachata class next door and the teachers spent one hour on teaching just three steps with very clear technical breakdown and variations depending on the level of the follower. I find this approach is much more common in bachata.

Example of how salsa needs to evolve!

 

[Amun]

Totally agree

I Went to a salsa class last night where the teacher just taught a pattern with very little technique, way too many steps for the length of the session so no-one could really understand it anyway, zero focus on musicality or improvisation. Just hammering out a pattern. Sadly this seems to be the template for a lot of salsa classes - probably the majority I've been to in lots of different schools and countries.

I truly wonder why teachers don't think about a more holistic curriculum that is equal parts: patterns, musicality, footwork, building connection. But most teachers are 90% on patterns.

Afterwards I went to a bachata class next door and the teachers spent one hour on teaching just three steps with very clear technical breakdown and variations depending on the level of the follower. I find this approach is much more common in bachata.

Example of how salsa needs to evolve!

This describes pretty much every school I went to. I wonder if salsa appeals to the wrong kind of people nowadays because most people, my friends included, seem to like this approach. When, very rarely, teachers tried to do solo work and/or musicality, especially leads were displeased as they probably felt that the more patterns you know the better dancer you are. On one occasion during solo musicality class, one guy loudly complained that he came to dance with girls and not to do solo - and thank god never came back. And honestly, he really needed that solo practice.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Too many salsa djs seem to want to play songs that feel more like they’re setting you a test to see if you can manage to interpret the music, the changes of rhythm, the random breaks, sometimes the difficulty in hearing the 2 & 6 - this is especially the case with some salsa dura which djs just seem to love but I’m getting really tired of dancing to it. I just can’t focus on building a connection with my partner because I have to focus on listening to the music and trying to predict it instead.

Can you give examples of songs that fit the above description? We have no way of knowing if the DJs are playing music that is not danceable, or you're lost with music that has any degree of complexity to it. Complexity can give music depth and make it interesting to listen to.

There are some (imo) quite snobby attitudes to BS in the salsa community, and I see them on this forum too. Sure, the music is not as complex rhythmically, and it’s more superficial. But it’s an art form in its own right,

BS music is an art form? That's hilarious. It blatantly isn't. Or do you mean the dance? It's possibly not quite as bad as the music, but it's really not an art form either.

I can see why salsa is losing popularity vs other dances. We need to become more accessible and learn from BS, kizomba, WCS etc. sadly I feel we often just look down on them

It's places where the salsa scene is based on disposable garbage music that have lost their audience dramatically in recent years. Maybe not all the world wants music and dance to be as simplistic and bad taste as possible.

 

[DJ Yuca]

from all the reports common Latin folks for whom salsa is part of their cultural, like romantica salsa.

That is obviously not always the case. Romántica was massive in Latin America in the 80s and 90s and is still very popular, however plenty of Latins prefer other types of salsa, for listening and/or dancing.