I know this is not exactly a salsa question but.. how to be liked by people beside the dance itself? (The Dance Zone)

[AlejandroKubano]

I want to bring up a really dark, real, intense topic so I'm sorry for the depressing post in advance but it is something that I am going through and I wonder if other people feel (or ever felt) the same way.

You know how people talk about friend zones? Well, I think I am in the dance zone: a zone where for most people you're a good object with two legs to dance with but otherwise not someone they'd want to do anything else with. It's not really fun and it leaves behind this painful deep feeling in your soul, way worse than a friendzone because you feel like you're not even worthy to be their friend but while you do dance is all smiles and cheers and "wow, I love doing this with you", like a small little demo into something that you will never truly have.

It feels like people just love to dance with me (my musicality is great & I make the dance really fun) but they don't really like me as a person and it is really getting heavy on my soul. A lot of people praise me for my dance and energy as I can dance for hours on end & it is probably where I developed my skills in a short period of time but the truth is that as soon as I stop dancing to sit down with people that I know to hang out, this awful feeling of not being worthy NOT as a dancer but as a person even just starts getting to me. I suppose that's good in a way because I'm learning more and more dances as a result but sometimes I just wish that I didn't need to dance this depressing feeling away, like those action movies where you're not allowed to stop a car because it will blow up otherwise.

They all talk to each other, they're all hanging out and stuff, and I just sit there and always feel like I don't belong with anyone, like a party that I am never invited to and they just put up with me. The worst part (for me at least) in this entire thing is the reason why I stopped hugging others. Usually, after a dance, we commonly do a hug: during dance classes they tell us to do it afterwards in order to thank our dance partner for the dance. Well, I used to hug after a dance but when others hug me it just feels so forced, they're bent and arched and hugging me with such disgust & dishonesty, like they're hugging a two meter tall pile of **** because they feel like they have to. Now, I do a high five with them and feel like bottom of the barrel because of it, like I am too disgusting to have a hug from the heart (like how the others hug each other, and I've seen what a kind hug looks like) so I just high five from a distance. I know that I am not entitled to stuff like that but it just makes you feel like you stink, you know..?

I guess my question is: what do you do to be genuinely liked by others as a person? What do you talk about with people during a social & how to be more likable & interesting, I guess? Any advice is welcome, like what to say and how to behave and even how to smile right. I know, it's fucking pathetic that I am asking that because it should come natural but there's no school for this, not really, and if I need to learn it like some psychopath that's mimicking emotions I will damn well do it.

I don't think I do anything bad, maybe I am not that talkative and I have a bit of an emotionless face (plus I very tall & kind of strong so that's even worse). I think many people might think I am arrogant because of that. Could it be because I can't bond with them over salsa, since I notice that a lot of people bond over not being good at it? At this point, I would trade in all of my salsa and be shittier at it just to be liked as a person more. I don't want a hook up... I just want to be liked as a person.

PS: Yes, I should see a therapist but (in the meantime) please offer me some advice I could apply because I desperately need it. Thanks.

 

[MamboJazz]

Tough read, indeed. Without seeing with our eyes how you behave in the crowd it's hard to give usefull advice.

I guess others don't see you that negative like you imagine. Mostly they don't care or think much about others.

In which country you live? Socializing cultures are so different in various countries. In some countries I would recommend to just move away.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

what do you do to be genuinely liked by others as a person?

I don't try hard to be "liked" because my dancing actually does most of the talking for me. I assume this is the same for you. Once people "like" your dancing, it becomes an ice breaker.

If you want to genuinely get to know people, it helps to be complimentary. I don't mean to just start flattering random people, but anytime I've struck a conversation with someone, it has started with something I've liked about their dancing or vice versa. Or even talking about what you like about the music or something else related to the event itself.

I'm guessing it's easier for people to compliment you rather than the other way around.

This is the perfect "in". Most of the hard stuff is done. All you need to do is keep the conversation going. Ask them questions to further engage them. People would like to get to know about "you" as well as the "dancer". I tend to blur this line.

I try to be honest, meaning I talk about my likes and dislikes. I don't like everything and if there is something I dislike, I mention it too.

This is basically my strategy for engaging One-on-one, which I prefer.

The best way to get to know people is through a shared community but that would mean being involved in some kind of community project that requires regular communication.

 

[1derpalm]

Hmm.
I have to say:
It sounds like you have (as I do) a significant case of imposter syndrome. I'm sure no one thinks your a piece of sh@t. If they do, you don't them to like you anyways.

I understand about the parties and not hanging out and stuff on 2 levels.
I have a friend who wanted to give up dancing because it wasn't fulfilling his social and connection desires.
I have also not been invited to parties, thought someone likes me (they asked to hang and practice na d invited me to their going away party) only to find out they couldn't stand me. That stung, so I keep my distance now.
I also realized that I was Infact trying too hard to connect with people that frankly I wouldn't get along with outside of dancing anyways. So it isn't a big deal.

Mayne some of your rejections are justified, but some I'm sure aren't.

 

[1derpalm]

Hmm.
I have to say:
It sounds like you have (as I do) a significant case of imposter syndrome. I'm sure no one thinks your a piece of sh@t. If they do, you don't them to like you anyways.

I understand about the parties and not hanging out and stuff on 2 levels.
I have a friend who wanted to give up dancing because it wasn't fulfilling his social and connection desires.
I have also not been invited to parties, thought someone likes me (they asked to hang and practice na d invited me to their going away party) only to find out they couldn't stand me. That stung, so I keep my distance now.
I also realized that I was Infact trying too hard to connect with people that frankly I wouldn't get along with outside of dancing anyways. So it isn't a big deal.

Mayne some of your rejections are justified, but some I'm sure aren't.

Rejections = Projections

 

[Offbeat]

I want to bring up a really dark, real, intense topic so I'm sorry for the depressing post in advance but it is something that I am going through and I wonder if other people feel (or ever felt) the same way.

You know how people talk about friend zones? Well, I think I am in the dance zone: a zone where for most people you're a good object with two legs to dance with but otherwise not someone they'd want to do anything else with. It's not really fun and it leaves behind this painful deep feeling in your soul, way worse than a friendzone because you feel like you're not even worthy to be their friend but while you do dance is all smiles and cheers and "wow, I love doing this with you", like a small little demo into something that you will never truly have.

It feels like people just love to dance with me (my musicality is great & I make the dance really fun) but they don't really like me as a person and it is really getting heavy on my soul. A lot of people praise me for my dance and energy as I can dance for hours on end & it is probably where I developed my skills in a short period of time but the truth is that as soon as I stop dancing to sit down with people that I know to hang out, this awful feeling of not being worthy NOT as a dancer but as a person even just starts getting to me. I suppose that's good in a way because I'm learning more and more dances as a result but sometimes I just wish that I didn't need to dance this depressing feeling away, like those action movies where you're not allowed to stop a car because it will blow up otherwise.

They all talk to each other, they're all hanging out and stuff, and I just sit there and always feel like I don't belong with anyone, like a party that I am never invited to and they just put up with me. The worst part (for me at least) in this entire thing is the reason why I stopped hugging others. Usually, after a dance, we commonly do a hug: during dance classes they tell us to do it afterwards in order to thank our dance partner for the dance. Well, I used to hug after a dance but when others hug me it just feels so forced, they're bent and arched and hugging me with such disgust & dishonesty, like they're hugging a two meter tall pile of **** because they feel like they have to. Now, I do a high five with them and feel like bottom of the barrel because of it, like I am too disgusting to have a hug from the heart (like how the others hug each other, and I've seen what a kind hug looks like) so I just high five from a distance. I know that I am not entitled to stuff like that but it just makes you feel like you stink, you know..?

I guess my question is: what do you do to be genuinely liked by others as a person? What do you talk about with people during a social & how to be more likable & interesting, I guess? Any advice is welcome, like what to say and how to behave and even how to smile right. I know, it's fucking pathetic that I am asking that because it should come natural but there's no school for this, not really, and if I need to learn it like some psychopath that's mimicking emotions I will damn well do it.

I don't think I do anything bad, maybe I am not that talkative and I have a bit of an emotionless face (plus I very tall & kind of strong so that's even worse). I think many people might think I am arrogant because of that. Could it be because I can't bond with them over salsa, since I notice that a lot of people bond over not being good at it? At this point, I would trade in all of my salsa and be shittier at it just to be liked as a person more. I don't want a hook up... I just want to be liked as a person.

PS: Yes, I should see a therapist but (in the meantime) please offer me some advice I could apply because I desperately need it. Thanks.

Solely from the way you have written and described yourself, to me it appears like you are suffering an inferiority complex.

You didn’t mentioned where you live. Starting from North America, as you go from west to east and north to south of the world, the societies are more friendlier. For example southern Europeans are more friendlier than north Europeans. While North Americans excel at small talk and shallow connections, the Latin Americans are friendlier to an extent that I seen North American view their friendliness with a suspicion as if it had an agenda.

Irrespective of your personality type and which society you live in two points that make people want to be associated with you are:

1. First like yourself. Feel good about yourself (it gives out positive vibes whether you realise or not).

2. Do interesting things in life. This automatically makes you an interesting person. People like to associate themselves with interesting people (social value).

People also like when you are genuinely interested in them or what they do. When was last time you liked someone who only talks about themselves

Other things are secondary like smiling, having above average dress sense for the place you live in, being humurous, know how to break ice, etc.

It really doesn’t matter whether you are an introvert or extrovert. If you show interest in connecting with others they will reciprocate. That is almost universal. If you are afraid of connecting by taking the first step and expecting them to take it, remember others are also thinking the same. It is hard for a lot of people to take the first step and break the ice. Connections are built over time.

In social dancing too. With some exceptions where you hit off from the first go, usually it starts by acknowledging and greeting familiar faces. Then after a few weeks with small conversations. It is like building brick by brick. You will find some people resonate with you and you with some. It is natural. Slowly you become an in-group member. Fastest way to make connections off dance floor is to join a dance team. How good dancer you are or not, plays zero role in how social connections form off the dance floor. Other way is to identify who are influencers and befriend them first. Influencers will usually befriend you if you make an attempt. Think of influencers as social alphas. They are everywhere. On college campuses, in classes, in dancing, in any place there is a small or big group of people you can easily identify those who have an influence over what the group does.

Feeling desperate is the last thing you need. Because you also project feeling of being desperate and that repels people.

Your anecdote about hugging and avoiding it for different reasons is a symptom that you need to sit and talk with someone about your issues. Most of the hugging at the end of dance is either a natural or cultural driven action that people do without thinking much. It is similar to shaking hand when you meet anyone. You don’t have to analyse why they are willing to shake your hand.

In short you are overthinking this in your head and not willing to put yourself out there to form the type of connections with people that you are aspiring for.

 

[FranzFan]

In my experience salsa people are cliquey as hell. Particularly in Europe you tend to see the same faces at a lot of festivals and they know each other very well and don't easily invite others in.

I consider myself good at socialising and an advanced dancer, and yet I've not come close to accessing these friendship groups.

It's a reason I do much more other dances now, as I tend to find the crowd more welcoming in most other scenes.

That said, if you go regularly to a school to take classes, that's your best bet to make a good friendship group.

 

[David]

As for the question of being liked by others, I think that It is important to learn to like yourself. And after you like yourself, you can start to like other people and when you like other people like you most of the time. We all have our self work to do and no one is perfect, but this is definitely an area you can improve on if you work on it

 

[Offbeat]

In my experience salsa people are cliquey as hell.

No! Tango people beat salsa people by 100 miles in that department They make people literally cry and salsa looks very friendly crowd in comparison. It is all relative. You don’t know what a hell is

Particularly in Europe you tend to see the same faces at a lot of festivals and they know each other very well and don't easily invite others in.

True. This is how it is when you first start into the EU festival scene. More than festival scene think of it like a regular social with regular attendees. Only the social moves from one city to another

I consider myself good at socialising and an advanced dancer, and yet I've not come close to accessing these friendship groups.

Within dancing context I am anti-social and introvert. I never tried to become part of these groups. But organically I was able to build acquaintanceship with individual member of these groups. As also other regular dancers who don’t belong to any of the groups. There are a number of them and they also attend the festivals regularly.

It's a reason I do much more other dances now, as I tend to find the crowd more welcoming in most other scenes.

Any social dance scene I participate in is for dance chemistry and dance highs. Friendship etc is not a goal nor socializing. They can be nice to have. Show up enough and friendships grow organically. I never like to force them. At an individual level I find EU salsa scene to be far more friendly than US salsa scenes. People are friendlier and more open. For example women in Europe are less defensive and more open in interacting with men. Most men in USA share that sentiment who have experienced dancing on both sides.

That said, if you go regularly to a school to take classes, that's your best bet to make a good friendship group.

time tested formula which almost always works!

 

[MamboJazz]

At an individual level I find EU salsa scene to be far more friendly than US salsa scenes. People are friendlier and more open. For example women in Europe are less defensive and more open in interacting with men. Most men in USA share that sentiment who have experienced dancing on both sides.

I read this here before and find it astonishing, because americans have this image of being really easy-going types like coming over to you at a party and say: "Hi, I'm Jimmy from Texas, and where are you from?" And that's how I always experienced them meeting in hostels on travel etc. This californian vibe of smile and talk without hesitation. So it surprises me it should be different at dance socials. You indicate it's more a problem with the american ladies than with the guys?

 

[Latinjazz]

No! Tango people beat salsa people by 100 miles in that department They make people literally cry and salsa looks very friendly crowd in comparison. It is all relative. You don’t know what a hell is

Absolutely! When I went dancing Tango I WANTED them to ignore me besides dancing.

 

[Latinjazz]

I read this here before and find it astonishing, because americans have this image of being really easy-going types like coming over to you at a party and say: "Hi, I'm Jimmy from Texas, and where are you from?" And that's how I always experienced them meeting in hostels on travel etc. This californian vibe of smile and talk without hesitation. So it surprises me it should be different at dance socials. You indicate it's more a problem with the american ladies than with the guys?

I agree, but I think US American approach to life is mainly to have fun.
meaning in a bar sitting besides you they are really open, but when they are with their friends at a Salsa event they are focused on that.
However, it’s only my perspective. Generally I find US Americans great for this aspect, specially in bars.

 

[Offbeat]

I read this here before and find it astonishing, because americans have this image of being really easy-going types like coming over to you at a party and say: "Hi, I'm Jimmy from Texas, and where are you from?" And that's how I always experienced them meeting in hostels on travel etc. This californian vibe of smile and talk without hesitation. So it surprises me it should be different at dance socials. You indicate it's more a problem with the american ladies than with the guys?

Not only at salsa. In general too. It has been discussed before somewhere in the forum. @Sabrosura also has a perspective since she lived almost a decade or more in the USA.

 

[RichNTacoma]

Oy vey, people playing therapists diagnosing someone based upon a small passage (I am a therapist, and it is not something I would ever do with someone I have not spent a lot of time with in a clinical context). Just stop.

To answer the OP, friendship research shows that there are several things you can do. 1) show interest in others. 2) Listen deeply with empathy and caring 3) Smile. 4) Be genuine and authentic. 5) Be your best self. When you are not in a good place, clearly others pick up on it.

Given what I read, I would also say you deserve good therapy to work through this. Deserve, not need.

 

[Offbeat]

Oy vey, people playing therapists diagnosing someone based upon a small passage (I am a therapist, and it is not something I would ever do with someone I have not spent a lot of time with in a clinical context). Just stop.

Please don’t jump the gun. No one is diagnosing anything. You are reading too much. The OP himself said it was a “depressing post” and then in the bold said “this awful feeling of not being worthy NOT as a dancer but as a person even just starts getting to me.” Others are only trying to help by giving tips on how to make friends. I don’t think that’s a sole province of therapist. Telling someone things like “imposter syndrome” or “inferiority complex” or “don’t be jealous” or “don’t be suicidal” after they admit to what sounds like it isn’t diagnosis.

To answer the OP, friendship research shows that there are several things you can do. 1) show interest in others. 2) Listen deeply with empathy and caring 3) Smile. 4) Be genuine and authentic. 5) Be your best self. When you are not in a good place, clearly others pick up on it.

Agree. Others have said more or less the same. Glad that research backs that up because the wisdom has been handed down through the generations

Given what I read, I would also say you deserve good therapy to work through this. Deserve, not need.

Is that a diagnosis ?

 

[RichNTacoma]

Please don’t jump the gun. No one is diagnosing anything. You are reading too much. The OP himself said it was a “depressing post” and then in the bold said “this awful feeling of not being worthy NOT as a dancer but as a person even just starts getting to me.” Others are only trying to help by giving tips on how to make friends. I don’t think that’s a sole province of therapist. Telling someone things like “imposter syndrome” or “inferiority complex” or “don’t be jealous” or “don’t be suicidal” after they admit to what sounds like it isn’t diagnosis.



Agree. Others have said more or less the same. Glad that research backs that up because the wisdom has been handed down through the generations



Is that a diagnosis ?

Imposter syndrome is a pop-psych diagnosis. Telling someone they deserve help is not.

 

[Offbeat]

Imposter syndrome is a pop-psych diagnosis. Telling someone they deserve help is not.

People tell others they are being narcissistic all the time. Do you think that’s a diagnosis too? People often admit to having imposter syndrome - are they self diagnosing? I don’t know if there is a clinical definition or meaning for “imposter syndrome” like there is for NPD.

Irrespective, the terms that overlap with clinical definitions are used everyday for communicating. More as a tool for communicating effectively (a shorthand). That is not diagnosis. It is easier short hand for someone to tell me they are dealing with person whose behavior borders on being narcissistic, than describing in all the details what bothers or harms them of that person’s behavior. When discussing behaviors an average person is thinking about best way to communicate, and diagnosis is far from their mind. You can not and should not hold an average person and how they communicate to the same standard as a licensed therapist. Otherwise it won’t be possible to have a common sensical discussions.

BTW the full sentence written by the poster where “imposter syndrome” was mentioned:

“
Hmm.
I have to say:
It sounds like you have (as I do) a significant case of imposter syndrome. I'm sure no one thinks your a piece of sh@t. If they do, you don't them to like you anyways.”

Honestly I don’t find any diagnosis there but rather the poster relating to what the thread starter narrated. The poster by saying “as I do” and “sounds like” is trying to display empathy. Not diagnosis.

I am sorry, but your allegation still doesn’t stand up to the scrutiny that the others are indulging in pop-pyschology in this thread. Other threads may be.

 

[RichNTacoma]

People tell others they are being narcissistic all the time. Do you think that’s a diagnosis too? People often admit to having imposter syndrome - are they self diagnosing? I don’t know if there is a clinical definition or meaning for “imposter syndrome” like there is for NPD.

Irrespective, the terms that overlap with clinical definitions are used everyday for communicating. More as a tool for communicating effectively (a shorthand). That is not diagnosis. It is easier short hand for someone to tell me they are dealing with person whose behavior borders on being narcissistic, than describing in all the details what bothers or harms them of that person’s behavior. When discussing behaviors an average person is thinking about best way to communicate, and diagnosis is far from their mind. You can not and should not hold an average person and how they communicate to the same standard as a licensed therapist. Otherwise it won’t be possible to have a common sensical discussions.

BTW the full sentence written by the poster where “imposter syndrome” was mentioned:

“
Hmm.
I have to say:
It sounds like you have (as I do) a significant case of imposter syndrome. I'm sure no one thinks your a piece of sh@t. If they do, you don't them to like you anyways.”

Honestly I don’t find any diagnosis there but rather the poster relating to what the thread starter narrated. The poster by saying “as I do” and “sounds like” is trying to display empathy. Not diagnosis.

I am sorry, but your allegation still doesn’t stand up to the scrutiny that the others are indulging in pop-pyschology in this thread. Other threads may be.

Wow, that is a lot of work to put into a response. Thanks.

 

[Groove On]

People often admit to having imposter syndrome ...

Personally I like the phrase imposter syndrome. In everyday speech, "fake it until you make it". It's a normal feeling when learning anything new and getting better at it.

Heck I do it all the time, when I'm posting something online "authoritatively", and then wonder if I over did it.

 

[Latinjazz]

Oy vey, people playing therapists diagnosing someone based upon a small passage (I am a therapist, and it is not something I would ever do with someone I have not spent a lot of time with in a clinical context). Just stop.

To answer the OP, friendship research shows that there are several things you can do. 1) show interest in others. 2) Listen deeply with empathy and caring 3) Smile. 4) Be genuine and authentic. 5) Be your best self. When you are not in a good place, clearly others pick up on it.

Given what I read, I would also say you deserve good therapy to work through this. Deserve, not need.

I partly agree, on the other hand the meaning of a forum is to answer questions following one’s own judgement and I think all answers all well meant.
I think the advice you give is good, though.

I do sense in your particular post that you are an insecure person and blablabla…
Just joking.
Of course we are not therapists, but again - people here mean well. What I don’t like is personal attacks and debates that become too heated here, it happens unfortunately. But not a lot lately.