rjoe92057 said:
How to teach musicality.
- Thread starter vendetta4v
- Start date
rjoe92057 said:
OK what happens when the congero is doing a solo or discarga.
I think you should get a feel of the whole peace rather then dancing on a certain instrument that what happened to et on 2 to power on 2 and to LA they all relay on one instrument or a certain patter eg: 123 567; 234 678; 23 calve etc. I think its really wrong because sometimes the music is really trying to tell a story, you just need to listen and interpret and how Nydia said the music is counting for you, but then again I'm sure there is a solution and explanation about the conga situation i described earlier.
vendetta4v said:
Well, what we've got so far:
1. Picking out the beat is essential (tho' some would argue it isn't!) and you can teach this by playing music, identifying the beat with them, demonstrating that you can't always rely on any one instrument, and persuading them to listen to salsa a lot so that they can identify the phrasing of the music.
2. Next, the basic rhythm. Accenting a regular beat - different On1 / On2. And the quick-slow thing. This is about cadences in physical motion in time with the music. You can teach this along with any routine as it does not depend on particular phrases of the music. But students need to practice it physically.
3. Next, interpreting the music, and here it is first essential to understand the patterns of the music. We can simply listen to a track until we know it backwards (I heard one of the pros in the past week's 'Strictly Come Dancing' tell an interviewer that the very first thing he does after selecting a track is to listen to it 'about thirty times before taking a step...). We have analysis in the mould of Azzey's expert analysis or that of the Bear in his innovative class the other week (can't find the thread in a hurry). These can help students who want to put the work into listening and deconstructing salsa music to predict likely breaks and changes in tracks they don't yet know.
4. Last, ways of interpreting the music, and here you can demonstrate things students might like to do at certain points in a given track, or generic things of use in handling unknown tracks. Again there has to be repetition as learning a physical motion is involved.
While beat, rhythm, timing and accenting recurrent phrases can be taught within the traditional teaching 'routine,' the other things require repetitive tracks or phrases and more of a dedicated workshop approach. Students require a level of commitment and such workshops may not be attractive to some.
At the end of the day you are equipping a student to recognise the possibilities in interpreting music but there is no 'correct' way and, like style and 'sabor' interpretation is an individual thing. I can think of few things more calculated to inspire cynicism than if, at some club night, you saw all the dancers doing identical things to a given track.
Unless it was rueda, that is... LOL
3. Next, interpreting the music, and here it is first essential to understand the patterns of the music. We can simply listen to a track until we know it backwards
I actually believe its really unnecessary since the more we listing to the song the less it exiting becomes most of the people i know have danced to viol la pena half a dozen of times and still cant time the multiple spins and the breaks right. oooohh i don't understand it are they completely deaf :lol:
Another thing about choreography, the more you listen to the song the more you delve into the inner smaller patterns of the music.
So to give you a more visual example, from all the blood and DNA samples you can miss the actual elephant.
When the choreography goes after the small details of the music it sometimes looses the story of the song here is Juan Matos who is just in his own world this describes perfectly what i mean.
Live video link removed by Moderator
I've seen it 3 times all ready and i cant see the big picture looks like he and his partner are trying to reach something. They are waves i really don't get it.
OK back to the subject I think that we need to teach people to see the bigger picture (yes now i got it) we need to make them see and react not only to the beginning of the song but to understand that this is a story, that there is an entrance interlude the story it self and the ending conclusion. It reminds me Edie salsa freak work shop.
I actually believe its really unnecessary since the more we listing to the song the less it exiting becomes most of the people i know have danced to viol la pena half a dozen of times and still cant time the multiple spins and the breaks right. oooohh i don't understand it are they completely deaf :lol:
Another thing about choreography, the more you listen to the song the more you delve into the inner smaller patterns of the music.
So to give you a more visual example, from all the blood and DNA samples you can miss the actual elephant.
When the choreography goes after the small details of the music it sometimes looses the story of the song here is Juan Matos who is just in his own world this describes perfectly what i mean.
Live video link removed by Moderator
I've seen it 3 times all ready and i cant see the big picture looks like he and his partner are trying to reach something. They are waves i really don't get it.
OK back to the subject I think that we need to teach people to see the bigger picture (yes now i got it) we need to make them see and react not only to the beginning of the song but to understand that this is a story, that there is an entrance interlude the story it self and the ending conclusion. It reminds me Edie salsa freak work shop.
sweavo
Changui
vendetta4v said:
Well, you asked about teaching musicality, and you can only teach someone based on where they are at right now. Since most people are firmly within the dancing-by-numbers habit, there's one step that can be taken, no?
If you're looking for specifics, then it's a mistake to try to apply any specific rule across the board. If you're looking for general things, (e.g. "listen to the whole piece") then you'll have trouble applying them specifically!
I've just started attending a percussion workshop with the congas, and it's interesting to see how a purely rhythmic lesson is broken down. The teacher is refusing to count or use musical terms, and won't let me write down the patterns, because he wants us to feel the rhythms first. Feeling and technique come before theory. I feel as if the 1,2,3...5,6,7... fetish goes against this, as does the idea of "correct" technique... sure you can have "correct" technique, but getting into that mindset is no use if you are thinking about musicality. Then the conga solo is "incorrect" music and the student is even more confused.
hmm, I've scarcely slept for 5 weeks, I wonder if any of that made sense.
Erm - yes. And no. A dichotemy if ever there was one. :roll:sweavo said:
So I was wondering last night if it is possible to dance in phrases. Just as there's 4/8/12 bar phrases in the music, is it possible to tailor your dance patterns so there's a beginning, middle and end within that phrase? The nearest I can see people doing it, is on a song basis (starting out slow and building, etc.) Or perhaps dancing a melodic phrase very close in to your partner. Is there anything else that you can do?
shrek said:
Actually, most phrasing is done in 8s and 16s-- the 12 bar phrase, is an 8 bar with a 4 bar tacked on the end, which many times could be the clave rhythm reversing .
Songs, traditionally have verse and chorus . The repetition ( usually after 32 bars ) can sometimes, bring a new dimension to the already pre- existing melody .
And yes, you can and should do that ( dancing close )-- thats exactly what musical interpretation is, making your " material " appropriate to the passages being played . ( Cumbia rythm is always a good e.g. within the musical structure )
The partner relationship, should show all the " shades " of contact thru out the song .
You sound like you are at a point where the music is more than just " noise " !
I'm really pleased you've picked up on this phrasing thing. Regardless of 8 or 12 or 8 + 4 (though interesting nevertheless), if we can hear the music splitting into these phrases, and know how it's working, then we can do something about it;shrek said:
For clarity;
1 bar = 4 beats
1 8set = 8beats (or 2 bars)
One of the concepts we taught in our musicality class (the one Flex keeps referring to) was that if we've heard a "BAM" on the ONE after a phrase that we've identified as four 8sets long , and we then hear that phrase repeating, then we can potentially expect another "BAM" again on the first ONE after the phrase has repeated (though this is by no means guranteed!).
We can then set ourselves to lead up to this by doing something on the fourth 8set that leads us into the BAM we want to catch, for example a cross body to an open break, or a half-turn-in on 123, stepping back 567 into a "Shoulder flare" to catch the BAM on the ONE.
BAM 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
2 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
3 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
--- start leading in now...
4 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
BAM
The thing we didn't have time to get across in our musicality class, was that if we acknowledge that the music comes in phrases of 4, 8, or 12 (oops, sorry Terence, 8+4) we can then start to fit our patterns to the music. So if youve got a pattern that's four "moves" long, where one move is over 8 beats (or one 8set), then that will fit perfectly into a phrase of music that you've identified as being four 8sets long too, especially if you use the concept I mentioned above and lead yourself into it through the fourth eight, so you start your 4 move pattern at the beginning of the musical phrase.
Of course, understanding this is one thing, actually doing it on the dancefloor takes a bit more work...
Me? I'm still working on it... :lol:
Here's hoping some of this makes sense to somebody. It's much easier to explain when you're actually there.
Ron Obvious
Son
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
I'm also in the same stage, working on it. The next step is to do what you understand on the dance floor and the final step is to do it on the dance floor without understanding it....
sweavo
Changui
shrek said:
Good call! One thing is when you feel the music winding up for a change of section, don't enter any long sequences. E.g. there a CBL inside turn in to lasso into CBL inside turn again, which as a unit takes 4 full bars (two 8-counts) to execute. Don't start this when it sounds like the song's going to take off, break, or stop! Of course there's the possiblity that this problem doesn't exist for someone at a high enough level, because they always have a shorter version of any move, but that one for me is one that's never got shorter than 4 bars.
Interesting idea to apply this positively though, so you actually think of sequences that last for a bunch of bars.
It's interesting - my job involves a lot of just sitting and thinking, so I guess I like to take things apart in my dancing too and think about them. I'm trying to play around with lots of different things at the minute in my dancing, and 'the musicality' thing is one of them. As an aside, various teachers have talked about having a connection when you dance, so that the other person is an extension of yourself - but I only felt it for the first time, the other night, when a lyrical/quiet phrase came on in the music and I close danced with the person I was dancing with. It really felt amazing - and we weren't even doing any moves, and I hadn't danced with her before - surprising. Just have to figure out how to capture that feeling for the whole dance
I usually try to dance as much as possible on the "continuing phrases" that contain X number of bars. Whether its the singer or a certain tool I always try o follow there patterns. from what i noticed almost 95 % of all patterns and phrases are repitig at one point or another some are really hard to catch some are super easy (so easy that even a person who never heard salsa would recognize). I found that its all about the listening we are too focused on the patterns, and we ae not listening. Listening to the salsa music as much as possible, is really crutial issue. My musicality blowed through the roof, round the same time i started to listen to salsa 24/7.
One thing none of us have mentioned, and the first way I actually got musicality into my dancing was the simplest thing;
Finish with a dip just as the music finishes.
(I can think of one certain song that used to play a lot locally; I got a copy of it and listened to it over and over figuring out how to know when it was coming to an end. Payed off though - When it played out at socials, everyone else was fading and stopping mid-pattern whilst I was there with the lady's hair brushing the floor. Nice, though I say so meself.
Finish with a dip just as the music finishes.
(I can think of one certain song that used to play a lot locally; I got a copy of it and listened to it over and over figuring out how to know when it was coming to an end. Payed off though - When it played out at socials, everyone else was fading and stopping mid-pattern whilst I was there with the lady's hair brushing the floor. Nice, though I say so meself.
Yeah - doncha just hate them DJs? :twisted:
Fortunately, if a song has a definite ending most DJs around here do tend to play it to it's conclusion. Either they haven't yet mastered the art of mixing, or they actually know what us dancers actually want.
Fortunately, if a song has a definite ending most DJs around here do tend to play it to it's conclusion. Either they haven't yet mastered the art of mixing, or they actually know what us dancers actually want.
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:Yeah - doncha just hate them DJs? :twisted:
Fortunately, if a song has a definite ending most DJs around here do tend to play it to it's conclusion. Either they haven't yet mastered the art of mixing, or they actually know what us dancers actually want.
I thought on the last poll we did, no one liked mixing ? ( or the majority )