How to Deal with Getting Good

[catarina]

I don't have any answers, just agreement, and surprise that somebody else is inside my head! I'm at the 5+ mark in salsa, love both cuban & nyon2, and frequently go through this kind of conversation in my head about styling, self expression in my dancing, where insecurity is coming from, why I don't want to get noticed too much yet desperately hope my improvement is noticed etc. Needless to say, I'm enjoying all the feedback

 

[tallpaul]

One other thing.

In my opnion, it's okay for the follower to accidentally interfere with the lead every so often, in the interests of experimentation, so long as it's not happening all the time. An unconfident leader will be irritated, but a confident leader will recognise that the follower is being creative, and will figure out some way of leaving a little extra space for it (on a "win-win" basis).

For example, I can think of a few excellent dancers from Dublin who are brilliant to dance with. The girls I'm thinking of all love to spin, so every time I'd lead them into a CBL with a free inside turn, they'd make it a double (at least). It really caught me out to start with, because I wasn't used to it at all - and it clashed with what I was trying to lead next.

But I didn't want them to feel like they had to bring themselves down to my level, so I repeatedly made a mental note that for such girls, a free turn = a multiple free spin. Which was all the more satisfying when I figured out by myself how to wait for the 2nd spin before collecting them for a CBL 360 - oh yeah, now that's what I'm talkin' about...

So, (assuming that you're already well practiced in the skills of following the lead), experiment away

 

[DaveFUK]

One other thing.

In my opnion, it's okay for the follower to accidentally interfere with the lead every so often, in the interests of experimentation, so long as it's not happening all the time. An unconfident leader will be irritated, but a confident leader will recognise that the follower is being creative, and will figure out some way of leaving a little extra space for it (on a "win-win" basis).

For example, I can think of a few excellent dancers from Dublin who are brilliant to dance with. The girls I'm thinking of all love to spin, so every time I'd lead them into a CBL with a free inside turn, they'd make it a double (at least). It really caught me out to start with, because I wasn't used to it at all - and it clashed with what I was trying to lead next.

mmmh the 2 paragraphs don't go together.

Whilst yes I totally agree with the 1st the 2nd is either an example of you over leading i.e. the follower interperating the lead as a double, or the follower isn't actually following what you've lead.
It's nothing to do with the first para where the follower is try to style something/be creative. Not following a lead isn't creative.

You summed it up yourself "it clashed with what I was trying to lead next"

 

[olamalam]

One other thing.

In my opnion, it's okay for the follower to accidentally interfere with the lead every so often, in the interests of experimentation, so long as it's not happening all the time. An unconfident leader will be irritated, but a confident leader will recognise that the follower is being creative, and will figure out some way of leaving a little extra space for it (on a "win-win" basis).

For example, I can think of a few excellent dancers from Dublin who are brilliant to dance with. The girls I'm thinking of all love to spin, so every time I'd lead them into a CBL with a free inside turn, they'd make it a double (at least). It really caught me out to start with, because I wasn't used to it at all - and it clashed with what I was trying to lead next.

But I didn't want them to feel like they had to bring themselves down to my level, so I repeatedly made a mental note that for such girls, a free turn = a multiple free spin. Which was all the more satisfying when I figured out by myself how to wait for the 2nd spin before collecting them for a CBL 360 - oh yeah, now that's what I'm talkin' about...

So, (assuming that you're already well practiced in the skills of following the lead), experiment away

if you are talking about blonde twin sisters, they are not following at all!
if it's a single turn, it's a single turn. they spin great (i'm talking about 7-8 effortless free spin) but they are always in a rush. not my cup of tea.

 

[tallpaul]

Nope - the girls I'm thinking of are sisters, but not blonde or twins (to the best of my knowledge). I can think of another girl from a different city in the same boat. Fast girls, relaxed and elegant girls, quirky girls - vive la difference, they're all fun in their own way

Fair enough, it may very well be that the lead for a multiple free turn is different from a single free turn, but no-one's ever taught it to me. It may also be the case that I've gotten used to exagerating my leads for the benefit of followers who aren't used to the kind of stuff I do. (I've been told by local followers that the moves I use are pretty different from what other people do). If I knew what the lead was for a multiple free turn, and it's not the same as what I'm doing, then I'd be happy to use it in the few opportunities I get to dance with people who can follow it.

All of the girls in question apologised for clashing with my lead, and toned down what they were doing to compensate. What I'm saying is that I was glad of the opportunity to go away and tone up what I was doing. But if it kept happening throughout the dance (as it sometimes does with spin monsters and super stylists), yeah, it would be annoying.

It might have been a bad example, but would you chaps disagree with the first paragraph of my previous post?

 

[olamalam]

Fair enough, it may very well be that the lead for a multiple free turn is different from a single free turn, but no-one's ever taught it to me. It may also be the case that I've gotten used to exagerating my leads for the benefit of followers who aren't used to the kind of stuff I do. (I've been told by local followers that the moves I use are pretty different from what other people do). If I knew what the lead was for a multiple free turn, and it's not the same as what I'm doing, then I'd be happy to use it in the few opportunities I get to dance with people who can follow it.

For free turns, it's the energy you give to them. But I was talking about while leading a single turn, follower breaks the connection and goes for multiple free spins.

It might have been a bad example, but would you chaps disagree with the first paragraph of my previous post?

In my opnion, it's okay for the follower to accidentally interfere with the lead every so often, in the interests of experimentation, so long as it's not happening all the time. An unconfident leader will be irritated, but a confident leader will recognise that the follower is being creative, and will figure out some way of leaving a little extra space for it (on a "win-win" basis).

Totally agree, sometimes even amuses me. Besides, I do that too while following. If he is trying to lead me to a move when there's a break, I stop following I don't mind annoying guys :lol:

 

[vit]

Well, when I'm leading a free(solo) turn of the lady, meaning that I release her after initiating the turn, I usually even don't bother how many turns she will make. Yes, sometimes I give her lighter, sometimes stronger lead (trying to be within the limits she is comfortable with), but it's up to her to decide how many times she will turn (depending on her skills, floor, particular music etc) - while it's my job to watch her, trying to determine end of her spins and proceed (to avoid grabbing her in the middle of the last spin when proceeding into CBL180 for instance - or sometimes I'll intentionally grab her in the middle of the last spin and make something she didn't expect). For me it's just usual situation and not interfering with my leading. Girls are generally appreciating when they have some freedom while dancing

 

[LearningWarrior]

Two quotes from Mouaze,

"While learning do it bigger. While dancing do it smaller."
"First dance for your inside not for outside."

Not only great quotes, but I had no idea who he was before. Gosh, what a lovely dancer & really enjoyable to watch! Thanks!

Thanks everyone so much for your responses. Really good stuff in here. I really appreciate it, & I'm thinking all of what you've said over.

Big10, such incredibly useful stuff, thank you! And, god, I wish I could get away with wearing sunglasses on the dance floor! I don't like when guys do it, but women certainly aren't allowed doing it! 'Sides, it's dark enough for me in there!

I do like the idea of a lucky/inspirational item. Ever notice how all the superheroines have their bracelets that give them the power? Clothing & shoes I already do for mood, but I might do makeup as a way of signaling to myself and as a way of feeling like someone else/my more daring version of myself. Thanks.

I do also appreciate the reminder that some negativity that good dancers get is actually jealousy. Sometimes I think it's valid critique. And though it may be, you're right, it's quite inevitable that there's some jealousy mixed in there. Certainly has been for me.

I understand it's not about “bigger“ but more about “on point“, not “wishy-washy“.

Yes! That is it. And yep, a lot of it is quality of movement & improving that, though the rest (and bigger part for this discussion) is the mental piece of feeling confident & bold enough to commit to the movements in order to not shortchange them and make them look wishy-washy even though I'm *capable* of the full movement.

-I have full confidence in my body's learning process. If I do isolation exercises regularly, it's inevitable that my body movement will get better, and it has tons already.

I am not so shy as to video myself at home, and that has been incredibly useful to show myself that I *am* growing tremendously, which is nice to see- though it can sometime be painful in the short term.

I do appreciate the acknowledgment of the competition/judgment in salsa. It's true...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LearningWarrior View Post
Some of that was snails' pace progress (learning on the floor, from listening to music so much, etc.), but since I wasn't actually pushing the boulder but more bracing myself against it for most of that time... Mostly a solid plateau.
Love that analogy of yours.

I just continued yours!

So it's important that instead of pondering the question what do others think of this, to imagine yourself doing the movement confidently and with grace. Remember that you believe what you're thinking of whether conscioulsy or subconsciously.

Ooh, thank you, thank you, thank you! I am a big believer in the power of the mind. I've done some rounds of practicing in my head---sometimes with more success than others. You've got to know what you're doing pretty well to practice in your head... Well, I'm sure it improves with practice too--- Anyhoo- yes, I'd been working on practicing in my head some before, but hadn't been working on imagining the attitude & just completion of moves and confidence in my head. I'll definitely get on that!

And you're right- I've been trying to use other physical experiences -- though not dance -- to show myself how daring I can be. No idea how to execute what you're showing me in class? Hmm, everyone already knows that! Okay, then, I guess I'll try! And they're always really impressed at my attempts, which feels good. So, I appreciate that. I'll be carrying that back. Dance floor feels a bit different than classes, but certainly my leads do moves that they're working out & don't work the first time & I'm quite nice & encouraging about it.

TallPaul, how enjoyable... I don't know anyone that's 6'5" named Paul, to my knowledge. However, you did describe me pretty well. I try to remember that many people have thought I was a good dancer up until this point (despite what my video camera shows of me 8 months ago compared to now!!), so anything I'm doing is on top of that, really. If that makes sense. I'm unlikely to become a worse dancer as I improve, though I may become a temporarily less good follower. Though- in fact- my following has improved because the shines I've been doing make my weight transfer faster & I'm lighter on my feet, actually, & able to be even more responsive than before.

Oh, by the way, Paul, if you knew me, you might know that 1) I love that Marianne Williamson quote - I thought of including it in this thread myself, actually. (The book it's from is amazing, though see point #2...) 2) I don't mind being characterized with bleeding heart hippies, at all...

Glad it's useful for you, Catarina, and that I'm not alone...

 

[tresto]

Here is something I have noticed with "crazy" spinners.
If you give them lots of spins + VARIATIONS (from none to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, left and right, travelling, on the spot, ...), they will love it, really pay very close attention in their follow and you can then choose how many they will do each time including in free spins.

 

[tallpaul]

TallPaul, how enjoyable... I don't know anyone that's 6'5" named Paul, to my knowledge. However, you did describe me pretty well. I try to remember that many people have thought I was a good dancer up until this point (despite what my video camera shows of me 8 months ago compared to now!!), so anything I'm doing is on top of that, really. If that makes sense. I'm unlikely to become a worse dancer as I improve, though I may become a temporarily less good follower. Though- in fact- my following has improved because the shines I've been doing make my weight transfer faster & I'm lighter on my feet, actually, & able to be even more responsive than before.

Glad it's useful for you, Catarina, and that I'm not alone...

Ah shame - you ticked so many of the boxes I was almost sure! But since the friend in question lurks on these forums, I can assure you that it's not just Catarina who will be empathising with your concerns

One other thing to consider is that watching a video of yourself is not the ultimate yardstick of quality of your social dancing. I think that people's opinion of how good the person who's dancing with them is based as much on connection and feel as it on watching the gracefulness of their movement. As a leader, we've got so much to concentrate on, and multitasking is not our strong point, that watching people in the manner of a "Strictly Come Dancing" judge doesn't really come into it. (Although, if you want to stick your chest out and roll your booty, then yeah, we'll probably pay attention!)

So a dance might look really boring and clunky to you in particular if you watched it back later on video (which could give you some useful ideas to work on), but still have felt fantastic to the person you were dancing with in terms of responsiveness of connection.

Happy learning

 

[Soplo]

On the topic of owning the move. I think it has nothing to do with bigness. It has to do with committing to the move and expressing it fully rather than half-assed. This is more a problem of personality and social pressures really.

Are you comfortable really expressing yourself even if you look like a fool to onlookers? Are you liberated enough from conformity and social pressures to express the music how you feel it. Really expressing it takes mental freedom more than technical expertise. Thus, I wouldn't phrase it as 'how big should the move be' but 'how big does the move want to be. how big does it have to be to be an adequate reflection of what I am feeling'.

I've started doing modern dance moves when I go out with my friends to regular bars. People are like, wtf? But, really, that's what I feel like dancing and so that's what I do. I'm free enough to be able to do this. If I weren't, I'd fall in the trap of thinking, 'well, what's the appropriate move to do in this environment. am I going to big? do i look good doing it? do people think I'm weird' and so forth.

Big, small, I don't give an eff. Conformity to what people think salsa should be is bunk. Be an individual and if you want to start doing cartwheels, then do so. Just be careful of others around you

Don't be afraid to go big. Trust your intuition. Explore.

 

[chrisk]

Ooh, thank you, thank you, thank you! I am a big believer in the power of the mind. I've done some rounds of practicing in my head---sometimes with more success than others.

You're welcome. I don't know where exactly this technique comes from. But I've heard about it from atheletes and some martial artists. And there have been some studies showing how this mental imagery is helping athletes in being successful.
In this regard it can also help to watch your idols and/or role medals doing the movement that you like and imagine yourself executing it with the same grace and beauty. And I think that using such mental images can help us move more confidently on the dancefloor and own our movement.

No idea how to execute what you're showing me in class? Hmm, everyone already knows that! Okay, then, I guess I'll try! And they're always really impressed at my attempts, which feels good. So, I appreciate that. I'll be carrying that back.

Great, I hope you let us know how everything worked out for you.

 

[LearningWarrior]

On the topic of owning the move. I think it has nothing to do with bigness. It has to do with committing to the move and expressing it fully rather than half-assed.

Absolutely agreed.

Thus, I wouldn't phrase it as 'how big should the move be' but 'how big does the move want to be. how big does it have to be to be an adequate reflection of what I am feeling'.

I do love this. Especially "how big does the move want to be." I like the idea of moves having feelings that I need to respect.

So a dance might look really boring and clunky to you in particular if you watched it back later on video (which could give you some useful ideas to work on), but still have felt fantastic to the person you were dancing with in terms of responsiveness of connection.

Yeah, this is a very fascinating phenomenon. There's one lead here that is really great to dance with-- he feels fantastic/encourages good movement through his body, shows off the follow nicely, good timing... and he's pretty uncomfortable to watch! How he looks & how feels are totally incongruous. It's very interesting.

In this case, actually, I've been videoing myself alone practicing.

Yeah, Chrisk, it's funny- I'd heard of visualizing with athletes & martial arts, but I'd only been practicing the mechanics of the moves in my head. Not how they felt or how I was expressing them really. Makes a huge difference! :rocker:

The watching role models & imagining myself that way too rocks also. So simple & such a great change from just watching & admiring & trying to steal moves or emulate movement alone.

Love, love, love concrete suggestions, thank you!

I do sincerely hope, TallPaul, that Catarina & others are benefiting from this thread also, as it is totally the mental piece that is oftentimes so important, absolutely agreed.

And in the interest of that, a couple other notes...

I am actually quite "into" hypnosis & lately affirmations & subliminal message recordings. I've been doing subliminal recordings that are peripherally (& really directly, actually) related to dance for a few weeks now (motivation, reaching goals, confidence, etc.). Most of which I found online for free, & were already helping considerably. I finally coughed up some $ for a dance-targeted one specifically. Da*#! Good stuff!

I decided a couple weeks ago that I was ready to deal with this stuff, and asked a few of my non-dance friends if I could dance for them to get over my shyness & inhibitions. I've danced twice for a friend I've known 10+ yrs & loves me dearly. Second time was much better. I was talking with her about the gap between what I can do "on the floor" vs. in my apartment vs. in front of her. If we said at home was 100%, I'd say "out" at last check was 50% & in front of her was 70% first time & 80% second time. So, that improvement was cool.

What was even more interesting though is that I've had a tendency to even be shy around myself at home... Still not totally "dancing like no one's watching" even when no one is! The past few days post-talk with her (where she very sweetly expressed total surprise at how hard it was for me- despite understanding -b/c to her it's so much a part of me now & it looks good), post-convos here & post-dance subliminals... I think my dancing at home has gone up to about 150% from where it was. It's pretty impressive. Can't wait to see where that puts my other ratios after that. I'm not gonna try to recalculate the math sensibly, but that certainly means that even if I'm at 50 or 70-80% of my new "home rate," that's already much improved!

Talking with her about that though made me curious- what do you think your ratios out/in front of people compared to at home? How have they changed over time? Did you notice when it changed & what made it change?

 

[TwoLeftFeet]

Many NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) books suggest when mentally visualising you use several perspectives.

one perspective is visualising as if you are inside the body, (in this case) its you doing the move/styling and thinking about how it feels (physically and emotionally[positive]) and looks from that perspective,

Then following that try visualising as if you are a third party watching yourself and imagine that person is doing it to the max perfectly.

As a lead I spend an hour every day on my commute visualising new moves and combinations etc, sometimes i stick my salsa music on and try and visualise in time to the music (not as easy as you might think). I believe it makes a huge difference to my dancing.

 

[Big10]

Big10, such incredibly useful stuff, thank you! And, god, I wish I could get away with wearing sunglasses on the dance floor! I don't like when guys do it, but women certainly aren't allowed doing it! 'Sides, it's dark enough for me in there!

You're welcome -- I'm glad that I could be of some assistance in hopefully bringing out the "Dancefloor Warrior" in you! (And, as a side note, the tinted glasses that I wore in those days weren't really that dark. There was only a slight green tint and I could still see everything perfectly clearly inside the clubs.)

Talking with her about that though made me curious- what do you think your ratios out/in front of people compared to at home? How have they changed over time? Did you notice when it changed & what made it change?

When I first became consistent about taking Salsa lessons, my ratio of club-to-home "expressiveness" was probably close to 100%. That was partly because I didn't know any better, and partly because I had a limited range of moves anyway. When I learned more (and joined a performance team and became more self-conscious of how I looked to others), the ratio dropped to close to 60%. Now I'm very comfortable with my knowledge of the music and my own vision for expressing the dance (even when that vision is contrary to native Latinos or more experienced dancers), so I'm probably back up to 95% with my Salsa. The extra 5% is because I have a pretty wild imagination and some of that would look truly crazy. :nope: I'm at about 90-95% with my Bachata. Maybe around 75-80% with my Chachacha. Probably 150% with my Merengue. Ha ha.

 

[DaveFUK]

It may also be the case that I've gotten used to exagerating my leads for the benefit of followers who aren't used to the kind of stuff I do. (I've been told by local followers that the moves I use are pretty different from what other people do).

That's part of the problem of dancing with less experienced followers, it can degrade your own lead. You get used to the energy required to lead a follower whose not as responsive as they should be. Then when you come to one that is .....you over lead them :-(

The more experience you get the quicker you "re-normalise" your lead from one partner to the next if you get my meaning.
If I've been dancing with beginners etc for several dances in a row and then I dance with a good follower I make a conciously effort for the first few turns to lead with less energy otherwise I send her in to orbit or spinning like a top!

As we continually tell our students it's the difference between driving a Fiat and a Ferrari.

It might have been a bad example, but would you chaps disagree with the first paragraph of my previous post?

Totally agree with the first paragraph

 

[opm1s6]

This thread is very motivating to get back to sf. I'll have to go through it in detail and give my own personal response. Reflecting on the few comments I've read:

I still believe in what Magna said "Dance like nobody is watching!".

That's a really great piece of advise that's open to all sorts of interpretation and means different things to different people. It's actually a very loaded sentence. Performing, eventually and with the right direction, will help get you to a point where you don't stress about dancing and you just let loose. Constantly being under a spot light, or being judged critically by someone gets you there, eventually. I've also seen another school here do it by constantly having students and dancers be video taped and photographed. Even still, if you don't have this sentence in place you'll never understand to just let it go and have fun even if you think your material is difficult and impressive. The mental state that allows you to dance more freely requires as much practice and internal discovery as simply training your body.

Two quotes from Mouaze,

"While learning do it bigger. While dancing do it smaller."

I wish he would have gone into more detail. The first part makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure what he's inferring to socially. Is he talking about dealing with spacial issues? Is he trying to communicate the power of being in the moment and how that feeling of pure dance makes all of your movements larger and exaggerated and thus you have to compensate. It's just too general of a concept for me to fully understand.

 

[olamalam]

I wish he would have gone into more detail. The first part makes a lot of sense to me, but I'm not sure what he's inferring to socially. Is he talking about dealing with spacial issues? Is he trying to communicate the power of being in the moment and how that feeling of pure dance makes all of your movements larger and exaggerated and thus you have to compensate. It's just too general of a concept for me to fully understand.

Actually two quotes are quite related to each other and he generally gives this advice I suppose. (I met him 2 times in London and once in Marakkesh, he always mentioned this in his classes)

There's a huge difference when he is teaching by counting and when he is doing with the music.

Two quotes from Mouaze,
"While learning do it bigger. While dancing do it smaller."

While practicing some movements don't hesitate to exaggerate/extend your moves until they become muscle memory. But while dancing socially don't try to show off by making those moves bigger (lets say a body roll). Just do it small, it will look natural and people will notice anyway.

For instance, in his pachanga class, we started with bigger steps and bigger body movements but at the end of the class, while filming him with music, it was looking completely different.

"First dance for your inside not for outside."

This is again related to showing off. Do stuff to make you feel good/satisfied, not others. When that passion comes from your inside, people will notice it anyway.

 

[GroovyMambo]

As a lead I spend an hour every day on my commute visualising new moves and combinations etc, sometimes i stick my salsa music on and try and visualise in time to the music (not as easy as you might think). I believe it makes a huge difference to my dancing.

I do the same thing! I find that this visualization exercise helps improve the precision of my lead because it forces me to be crystal clear about my movements in relation to my partner's movements and the music, specifically with respect to tempo and changes in clave direction.

 

[LearningWarrior]

one perspective is visualising as if you are inside the body, (in this case) its you doing the move/styling and thinking about how it feels (physically and emotionally[positive]) and looks from that perspective,

Then following that try visualising as if you are a third party watching yourself and imagine that person is doing it to the max perfectly.

This is nice. Thanks.
Amusingly, in the past, I wasn't thinking about the emotional at all. I realize now that the emotion I was imagining myself with was kind of tensed, focused and a bit stressed out. And guess what- voila! I practiced that very well & it showed (to me). So great to see the other stuff showing now!

As a lead I spend an hour every day on my commute visualising new moves and combinations etc, sometimes i stick my salsa music on and try and visualise in time to the music (not as easy as you might think).

So glad to hear someone else say that! It's been really difficult for me when visualizing to get up to tempo. It's so frustrating that it's been difficult to stick with it at times in the past b/c I've gotten so discouraged. I'll definitely have to do that next time on the train. Seems like a bad idea to do while driving...

"Dancefloor Warrior"

Hmm, I hadn't thought of my other dance ratios. Probably not all that off from my salsa ones. Fascinating to consider getting to the point of over 100% (home rate) on the dancefloor. Certainly some people do come alive more when there are people are around... What an interesting new goal..!
I do think I do that with merengue. More of it has to do with having a partner's energy & creativity to play off of... hmm...

This thread is very motivating to get back to sf. I'll have to go through it in detail and give my own personal response.

I'm so glad, & looking forward to it!

The mental state that allows you to dance more freely requires as much practice and internal discovery as simply training your body.

So glad to hear that acknowledged!! whoo! (sigh of relief at the acknowledgment)