How to Deal with Getting Good

[LearningWarrior]

So, I realize this may be a strange question & forgive me if it's been put forward before. How have you dealt with improving & positive attention?

I realize most people worry about making mistakes & not being as good as they'd like to be (which I do too), but I've been hovering at a "good, but not great" level in my scene for quite some time, at a comfortable, uncomfortable plateau. As I work on things intensely at home in practice (via dvds & online), I realize I'm partially excited about showing people how I'm improving & partially mortified at the idea of being noticed more. I do have evidence of people noticing me in the past, of course, with compliments & being asked to dance as a result of what they've seen, but-

I watched a video of myself doing shines at home, & the biggest thing I can see that needs improvement is just owning the moves more. I can see self-consciousness in how I move still. I think that translates as the biggest thing that I need to improve is just getting "bigger." Bigger shoulder rolls, bigger/cleaner distinction between steps & moving my arms in more noticeable ways (not just hanging out going slightly side to side the whole time), etc. I'm excited to have identified that.

However, you see- all of this would make people notice me more, which I have mixed feelings about. Can you all share some words of wisdom to get more positive and less mixed feelings about this? I'm sure you've had to deal with it (if you weren't already extreme extroverts, which I'm not.)

 

[vit]

It's good to have clean moves (steps, arms etc)

About making things "bigger" (shoulder rolls, body movement overall), if you don't improve the quality of that movement at the same time, it will look worse. You must be aware of current limits of your body, try to stretch them, but don't go beyond them when dancing. Making things bigger isn't automatically making them better - but frequently the opposite

About more people noticing your dancing, you have to ask yourself why you want that and who is more important to you - you current dance partner or other people around you ... etc

 

[tresto]

It's OK to be scared.

But guess what ?! It's all gradual ! Your improving is happening right now and will continue to happen. You are questioning yourself, but have your thought about the fact that it is already happening and it isn't so bad ? That it's so gradual that you don't realize it ?

All of this takes so much time that once you get good enough so that people will suddenly turn their heads towards you, you will already be used to it.

 

[LearningWarrior]

Yes, I figured I would get a response about how I described that. Perhaps I just mean more articulate movement. But I really do mean being willing to take up more space -- not in a way that's dangerous for my dance partner or others around me. Not in a beginning way of monstrous steps. Being willing to use all of the capacity that my body does have, rather than doing things part way. That's what's going on currently is that I'm cutting myself short of things that I am capable of for fear of standing out. Some of it's actually psychic space rather than physical space.

Believe me, I'm welllll past the stage of thinking the really show-y dancers are the best-

However, the ones who commit to their movements & execute them fully are beautiful to watch.

I just happen to realize that my conscious goal of becoming an amazing dancer is in a bit of conflict with my less conscious goal of flying under the radar. And if I have to give one up...

 

[LearningWarrior]

Thanks for that. Actually I'm not able to go out much at all right now (hence being really good at practicing at home, I think!), so ... maybe that's part of the build-up is that it doesn't feel like a gradual shift outside of my house.

 

[tresto]

You'll be fine.
Also, good body movement doesn't have to be showy.
You can go for graceful, elegant body movement. It doesn't need to be "big". Often, less is more. I see all this wiggling going around while in reality just a little bit of nice movement would be so great...

 

[azzey]

Agree with Vit and Tresto.

I just happen to realize that my conscious goal of becoming an amazing dancer is in a bit of conflict with my less conscious goal of flying under the radar. And if I have to give one up...

Improvement is great if you're doing it for the right reasons ; a more fun dance, for you and your partner, more self-control etc.

You'll be surprised what people DON'T notice. Remember when you were an absolute beginner and you didn't see all the little details. Well that still applies as you grow and other people stay at the same stage (at least in their awareness). Most people just see the moves and not the little details so you don't need to worry about it.

People notice qualities more than details ; like confidence, self-assuredness, happiness, vibe.

I still believe in what Magna said "Dance like nobody is watching!". You are free to have good and bad days no matter what level of experience you are. Putting pressure on yourself is just going to make it harder to really dance and have a good time.

Regarding your goal of becoming an amazing dancer.. having an internal focus on your dancing means more and better musicality, better quality connection, more feeling and self expression... knowing and being confident of who you are as a dancer.

An external focus might be more towards others, what they think. Changing yourself to appeal to others. Since what people want changes you will never stop having to change to please.

IMO beyond adapting to your partners, ultimately you can't satisfy everybody, so don't try. Just aim for what you like and want to be like. You will find the kind of people you like to dance with like to dance with you.

 

[chrisk]

So, I realize this may be a strange question & forgive me if it's been put forward before. How have you dealt with improving & positive attention?

I would say by staying humble and recognizing how much more I still have to learn and how much more I can still improve. It certainly gives you a good feeling if people recognize your improvement, but don't let it get to your head. I always take comments or compliments on improvement as a sign that my improvement is showing to others as well, but it's for me never I sign to stop working on myself and my dancing.

I realize most people worry about making mistakes & not being as good as they'd like to be (which I do too), but I've been hovering at a "good, but not great" level in my scene for quite some time, at a comfortable, uncomfortable plateau.

Are you sure that you're really stuck on a plateau or is it just that you're improving in a way that you're not yet able to notice it? Just try to think of rolling a huge stone up a hill towards the top. While you're behind the stone pushing it up with every step, you're not able to see your progress as it's hidden by the stone itself. Only once you get to the top, you're able to see the whole surroundings.

However, the ones who commit to their movements & execute them fully are beautiful to watch.

I would say that here you've just answered your own question. It's not so important if you use big or small movement, but whether you own it or not. I only came to realize this due to our Shines Compilations as well as watching and taking part in some afro-cuban workshops. Those that are beautiful and fun to watch are those that own their movement and just do it. They just do the moves feeling and believing that this is what the music wants them do right now. So don't doubt yourself, but go for whatever you feel and commit to the move to own it.

 

[SalsaGipsy]

I'll speculate that you are not afraid of people noticing you but of people noticing you and not liking what they see.

I see a couple of ways to go. First option is to practice at home or in class all these movements until you are happy with the way they look. When it all starts feeling natural it will creep into your social dancing too.

Second option is to will yourself into it. Try it on the dance floor, make yourself do it, fake confidence. It helps if you choose a song that you really like and one of your favourite partners - it will be easier to lose yourself in the dance. Once you do it, you'll see that it wasn't such a big deal. Most probably people didn't even notice? Or maybe they did and come with compliments?

In any case just don't forget that, whatever you do, there will definitely be people who will think you are an awesome dancer. Concentrate on the opinions of these people (I'm sure you know who they are and, if not, think of all the beginners who think you are a salsa god ). Surround yourself with such positivity and it will be easier to experiment on the dance floor.

 

[Smejmoon]

I'll second SalsaGipsy on selecting different partners for different dance styles. There are some on the scene who like to dance big and you like how they do it. When you dance with them they will light up. Also if you pay attention to your partner, you'll learn how and when they do it. You will also notice how big moves interfere with leading and floorcraft.

Usually I go through phases where I overdo an element, then switch my attention to something else. I'm pretty sure at beginning it looks lame and improves later on. Some good dancers I know they overdo at home at the mirror and dance smaller on the dancefloor. It looks better that way. But don't be afraid to jump.. or to dance. Too many people in salsa community are.

 

[Smejmoon]

For example this is how I was doing CBL on heavy musical accent in September. For whatever reason photographer selected these images. It does not look good, it feels good, I don't do it that much any more and do it smaller.

Right know it's pachanga and I'm positive my "pachanga" is lame and does not look good. But it's so much fun.

On my scene there are quite a few dancers that improve and I notice how they try new moves, how they lose attention at first and how they slowly incorporate them into dancing.

 

[petteri]

For whatever reason photographer selected these images.

I hope he was not looking down on your grounded look.

 

[olamalam]

Two quotes from Mouaze,

"While learning do it bigger. While dancing do it smaller."
"First dance for your inside not for outside."

Native Turkish speaker quoting native French speaker in English :lol:
But I hope you get the idea :tongue:

 

[olamalam]

For example this is how I was doing CBL on heavy musical accent in September. For whatever reason photographer selected these images. It does not look good, it feels good, I don't do it that much any more and do it smaller.

This is how I dance in heavy metal concerts :lol:
But generally I dance solo

 

[SalsaGipsy]

For whatever reason photographer selected these images.

I suspect it's because he/she saw the emotion. So much better than stone faces and minimal motion. If you see a photo of somebody else like this you'll probably find it charming because you'll feel that they dance with passion.

 

[LearningWarrior]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and response. I'm thinking & trying to articulate more of what it is I feel,, but in the meantime a couple comments...

Are you sure that you're really stuck on a plateau or is it just that you're improving in a way that you're not yet able to notice it?

Yes. Now I'm at the point that you described, but I've been dancing...5+ years. I've spent most of that time being a very solid follow & responding well to the lead, but not taking accountability for the dance myself in terms of energy, timing, body movement & dancing on my own/shines. I spent probably the last 2+ years not doing much on my own & then also a good amount of time doing classes with great people but not following up on my own & practicing. Some of that was snails' pace progress (learning on the floor, from listening to music so much, etc.), but since I wasn't actually pushing the boulder but more bracing myself against it for most of that time... Mostly a solid plateau.

People notice qualities more than details ; like confidence, self-assuredness, happiness, vibe.

Regarding your goal of becoming an amazing dancer.. having an internal focus on your dancing means more and better musicality, better quality connection, more feeling and self expression... knowing and being confident of who you are as a dancer.

An external focus might be more towards others, what they think. Changing yourself to appeal to others. Since what people want changes you will never stop having to change to please.

IMO beyond adapting to your partners, ultimately you can't satisfy everybody, so don't try. Just aim for what you like and want to be like. You will find the kind of people you like to dance with like to dance with you.

I appreciate what you said about internal vs. external focus, Azzey. And very non-judgmentally & compassionately expressed, thanks. I guess one of the pieces & one of my flaws has always been trying to adapt too much. Letting him lead everything w/o contributing a lot on my own. So, that's one piece. I tend to get so focused on kind of doing what I'm told that I'm afraid to risk interrupting him, even if I have something good to "say" (& I've also experimented enough to know that I will inevitably mess his plans up/miss a lead as I learn to balance the two.) Another piece is that I do enjoy dancing LA & Cuban. I know that there will be a magic time when I have my own style & can express it in either well if I wish to, but for now, I guess it feels like choosing (I'm focusing on LA) & that's a lil' tough for me as I love both & don't want to grow incompatible with Cuban as I going through a learning stage.

I'll speculate that you are not afraid of people noticing you but of people noticing you and not liking what they see.

Love that speculation!

Yeah, though my partner liking it also embarrasses me. It's easier if I'm in another city where no one knows me & what I'm "supposedly like." It's toughest changing in front of people I know. I'm not only thinking about the "crowd" watching as everyone assumes, but also a partner who is so busy...*noticing* me. I mean, seriously, couldn't he just find an overhead monitor with the game on somewhere or something?! Okay, not that that would please me either, of course, but-

So, I'm concerned with, yes, people going "God, who does she think she is?" & all, but it's also difficult for me to change that concept of myself. I just don't think of myself as someone who does booty rolls & stretches her arms out or up or pops her chest out...

I certainly need to continue practicing so things are more ingrained & natural-feeling as well as -looking, but-

As to the "willing" myself to do it on the dance floor & the "don't doubt yourself", "don't be afraid to jump"... sentiments... All well said & something I definitely need to do. What's gotten you or someone you know there?

I've really considered whether I need to deeply think of myself as acting in order to do some of the stuff... Kind of a variation of the "fake it 'til you make it," but more specific. And before anyone says, "don't do any styling that doesn't feel natural or you don't like" -- believe me, you won't find me doing any styling that I don't like. But the things that I like & could eventually feel natural don't feel like me or the me that I (& others) know. So, in the meantime, it feels a bit embarrassing & is hard for me to go full-force with them. But, I can imagine if I thought I was maybe acting out different ..archetypes, if you will.. maybe... Anyone consciously do that or something else to get comfortable?

Oh, I do like the idea of concentrating on the beginners who think I'm a salsa goddess. Easier than my partners, even ones I adore.

 

[Big10]

I just happen to realize that my conscious goal of becoming an amazing dancer is in a bit of conflict with my less conscious goal of flying under the radar. And if I have to give one up...

Give up the second one. People notice quality, whether you want them to or not. And, when they notice it, it's inevitable that some people will admire it while other people will be jealous. That's just the way human beings are. So, focus on dancing the way that maximizes your potential and makes you feel best. Along the lines of what azzey wrote, the dancers who like you will gravitate towards you -- and eventually you'll have enough of a support group that you won't notice (or care) what the "haters" say.

So, I'm concerned with, yes, people going "God, who does she think she is?" & all, but it's also difficult for me to change that concept of myself. I just don't think of myself as someone who does booty rolls & stretches her arms out or up or pops her chest out...

Just think of yourself as a "dancer" and do whatever feels right (physically, mentally, and musically) for you. Part of the process of learning to dance includes deciding what information you want to keep and what you want to throw out. There's no unwritten "Salsa law" requiring us to use every move and every bit of styling that we've ever been taught. Of course, practicing certain moves that you would never use on the dance floor can still be helpful in developing skills that you do use (like balance, timing, etc.), but it's obvious that what may look awesome on one person may look awful on everybody else, and vice versa. I suggest giving whatever new things you're taught a few practice opportunities, since you might be surprised at what you learn to like after it becomes more familiar/comfortable. However, if something doesn't feel "right" after working at it for awhile, then don't be afraid to ditch it in favor of focusing on something better.

I've really considered whether I need to deeply think of myself as acting in order to do some of the stuff... Kind of a variation of the "fake it 'til you make it," but more specific. And before anyone says, "don't do any styling that doesn't feel natural or you don't like" -- believe me, you won't find me doing any styling that I don't like. But the things that I like & could eventually feel natural don't feel like me or the me that I (& others) know. So, in the meantime, it feels a bit embarrassing & is hard for me to go full-force with them. But, I can imagine if I thought I was maybe acting out different ..archetypes, if you will.. maybe... Anyone consciously do that or something else to get comfortable?

I don't ever think about "acting" for social dancing, but there are certainly things that I do to get myself in the mood, and I'm sure other people do, too. For example, I know some women have certain shoes or skirts that get them in the "Salsa mood." Personally speaking, years ago I had a phase where I wore tinted glasses whenever I went to a Salsa club ; a phase where I'd wear a specific pair of boots; other times when I would wear a guayabera to put me in the mood; and now I have a necklace and a couple of pairs of black-and-white shoes for when I'm "serious." Maybe if you start to associate a certain article of clothing or jewelry with the liberated side of your personality, then it'll be easier to open up on the dance floor.

For example this is how I was doing CBL on heavy musical accent in September. For whatever reason photographer selected these images. It does not look good, it feels good, I don't do it that much any more and do it smaller.

I suspect it's because he/she saw the emotion. So much better than stone faces and minimal motion. If you see a photo of somebody else like this you'll probably find it charming because you'll feel that they dance with passion.

I agree with SalsaGipsy. Is that a move that any instructor would teach? No. But that doesn't mean it's not a valid expression of the music. It's easy to find literally a million photos online of dancers with "proper" posture and technique. It's much more rare to see photos where a dancer's personality and emotions literally jump out at the viewer.

 

[desconocida]

LearningWarrior, I think I get what you mean - well, obviously everybody who replies thinks that, but I also think I've been there I have two suggestions, it's for you to decide whether they are of any use in your case.
Number one is about the movement: what I think you described as your goal is simply to become a dancer, as opposed to somebody who executes moves on the dancefloor. I understand it's not about “bigger“ but more about “on point“, not “wishy-washy“. I think for that lots and lots (and lots!) of movement helps a lot! And in my humble opinion, unless you are in an area where salsa instructors offer amazing body movement classes like NY, it can be benefitial to go out of salsa and do African dance, maybe even hip hop, in case there are no good dance classes in your area even zumba in a gym nearby - or even mix all of those if you have the time! Do something where you need to move a lot, isolating every part of your body first, moving to combined movement later, do it often, let muscle memory set in and, most important, do it as if nobody is watching! (as a matter of fact, nobody probably really is in that setting). Then go back to your favorite salsa movements/shines and see whether you can incorporate those “new“ moves into it naturally. That is the first part of the equation. The second one is a little more complicated... First of all, I think salsa scene is a very judgemental one: men judge your dancing assessing whether or not it's “worth“ for them to dance with you. Women judge you in two ways: on the one hand you have to be a certain level not to fall under the “she'll never be one of US“ category. On the other hand they critically assess your dancing ranking their own abilities relative to you, because obviously leader are a scarce resourse (someplace more, someplace less, but the good ones are always busy) there is also competition between women and you becoming better will always encounter some critical reception, so what I think needs to be done is you realizing that you dance in your spare time, for your own money, and solely for your own pleasure. Unless your goal is to make money out of this (by teaching or performing) your goal is not to please anybody's eyes. There will always be men who like dancing with you just because the connection is right, there will also always be some who don't - regardless of how good you become. Your main goal is to enjoy yourself and yes, I will repeat that, dance like nobody is watching! It's hard, I know, and there are still moments of frustration from time to time, but I think that's at last part of the key! I hope this helps at least a little! I am aware this is a long process and that me simply writing this won't change much in the short or medium run, but hopefully you can get something out of it

 

[chrisk]

I spent probably the last 2+ years not doing much on my own & then also a good amount of time doing classes with great people but not following up on my own & practicing.

Okay, but aren't we all having periods where we at least tend to get lazy and not practice on our own whatever we learn and whatever we've got to work on? So good on you for notice this issue and wanting to tackle it.

Some of that was snails' pace progress (learning on the floor, from listening to music so much, etc.), but since I wasn't actually pushing the boulder but more bracing myself against it for most of that time... Mostly a solid plateau.

Love that analogy of yours.

So, I'm concerned with, yes, people going "God, who does she think she is?" & all, but it's also difficult for me to change that concept of myself. I just don't think of myself as someone who does booty rolls & stretches her arms out or up or pops her chest out...

Hm, how do you roll your booty? Seriously, I think that you're just touching here upon the most important point and that is the limits that you've created for yourself. You've developed not only your own mental image of what you're and want to be, but also partly an image of what others should and are thinking of you. And I think that once you've removed those barriers, you'll find it easier to try out new move or simply go crazy. So ...

As to the "willing" myself to do it on the dance floor & the "don't doubt yourself", "don't be afraid to jump"... sentiments... All well said & something I definitely need to do. What's gotten you or someone you know there?

... this is the question? I don't feel that I can give you here any solution that will instantly or definitely work for you. But I can give you some pointers as to what helped me or what I think that might help. Maybe some of it will help you as well.

I think there are two aspects that are important when it comes to trying out new bodymovement or styling: physical condition and mental/psychological toughness. When I talk about physical condition, then I mean that you're practicing body movement/isolations at home and that you've already tried out the movement before at home. I would also suggest that you want yourself either in a mirror or even better on tape and see how you look when you do the movement. This will help in finding out if the movement in general will fit for you and just needs to be improved to look smoother, etc. or if you should simply drop it. The mental/psychological toughness is the other aspect and as you state more your probem. It doesn't matter how good you're going to be able to move your body, if you're afraid of trying it out or are more concerned about what others think of do a certain arm styling, it will clearly show in your movement. So it's important that instead of pondering the question what do others think of this, to imagine yourself doing the movement confidently and with grace. Remember that you believe what you're thinking of whether conscioulsy or subconsciously.

So, what helped me personally with this issue? Good question and one that wasn't easy to answer for me. But after thinking about this for some time, I think the turning point, as I'ld like to call it, was for me the "indian party" at the farewell party of the berlin salsa congress two years ago. While I had seen a note on the programm about some indian shows and a bit of indian music at the farewell party, I hadn't thought of attending it. But somehow I managed to find my way to the room where all this was about to happen just in time to see the shows. While they were already good, I wasn't prepared for what happened after them. The DJ went on to play more indian (bollywood and banghra) music and Neeraj (Maskara) and some other indians started a kind of animation. Somehow a lot of us picked up on it and tried our best following. And although I was rather at that time afraid to do something like that, the atmosphere simply made to go with the follow and try my best as well. I'm sure I've looked not very good compared to the indians and others around, but I had tons of fun at that time. While this went on only for a short period of time, this was for me a turning point. After that I've been feeling more relaxed and confident in trying out new movement or styling and just doing whatever I enjoy and the music calls for. As long as my partner isn't going to laugh about me, everything's fine and I don't care what others think. Some might like it, some might hate it and some might just be afraid as you've been before. But does that matter? No, because it's more important that I and my partner have fun and not if the audience enjoys.

 

[tallpaul]

Hey there LearningWarrior

You know, you sound awfully like a friend of mine... ;-)

(If my hunch about LearningWarrior's identity is right, then I think that other posters ought to bear in mind that she is a SUPERB dancer and one of my favourite ppl to dance with - so much so that I often forget that she's not as confident about her dancing as she deserves to be. And if my hunch is wrong, heck, then I've no idea - but she might still be superb!)

Apart from that, I would reiterate Azzey's earlier nail-on-head advice - dance like no-one's watching. Great dancing is about self-possession and living in the moment of the song you're dancing to - not exagerating your movements and pretending to be someone you're not.

I know what you mean about the potential conflicts of a "flying under the radar" life approach. It was something that I used to deliberate over myself in the past (before I got into salsa I think) - but it was probably inevitable for me to let go of that approach sooner or later, as it doesn't work very well for 6ft5in people

I would say the thing is that if you can look at other people and admire what they do (and my guess would be that the people you admire are not the pretentious "trying too hard" types of people), then you've got to allow for the fact that some people will see you do your thing, and might well be impressed or choose to admire you for it. It's their choice. But whether they do or not is not your problem (certainly not on the social dancefloor) - being yourself is what matters.

At risk of sounding like a bleeding heart hippy, I'd like to quote Marianne Williamson: (I suspect that Ms Williamson herself may well be a bleeding heart hippy, but nonetheless I think her sentiment here is spot on)

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

Anyway, here endeth the sermon!
I hope that my comments aren't off-base, whether or not I've got your identity right Ms Warrior