How to deal with absolute beginners in social?

chi said:
To me the problem is that "strong enough" or "too much" is not a useful comment. I learn nothing if you just tell me my hip movement is not strong enough, so I end up thinking it is either a sexist comment or you just don't like it. I try to avoid people that give this kind of messages.
Just like if you tell me I don't have enough movement in my shoulders when shaking etc. Who defines what enough means? Is it useful for the dance or just something you prefer?
It feels different, to me at least, if you tell me what I am doing wrong eg. you are not shifting weight correctly, you are doing the big-small-small all small therefore the hip movement is flat/boring or like for the shoulders if the shaking/moving takes my hand away from you and the move you're trying to lead or if the lack of it makes the move look like it misses something.
Imo, the less "personal" and more "technical" the comment is, the more I appreciate it and also the less likely it is for it to be misunderstood.

Ps: please tell me the secret to good hip movement. I need it!
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Ok, I understand. I think the technique for moving the hips in a way that looks natural might be different for girls, so I don't think I am qualified. I also think it's a stylistic thing, because people have different styles of moving it. Personally I developed my own style.

I would suggest trying out different styles and see what works for you and then keep drilling those at home until it slowly becomes second nature. For example, the examples below show two different techniques, and I am sure some might say one is wrong or better than the other, but I think trying out different techniques and see what works better for you should be a good approach. Sorry, could not point to a specific technique either, maybe I am just as bad as the guy who told you to move it more :p
 
TikiTaka said:
Sorry, could not point to a specific technique either, maybe I am just as bad as the guy who told you to move it more :p
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You admitted not knowing something when asked, you're WAY better than him for sure!

As for the videos, tomorrow I'll whatch them and try those movements but, as far I've seen, my movement is more similar to the one in the second video (the 8). As you said, i'l try and find something that feels/looks better.
 
chi said:
you are doing the big-small-small all small therefore the hip movement is flat/boring
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Just a technical side note here :) (assuming you're talking about the on2 / on1 basic step): small-small-small is actually the better way to do it, not big-small-small. Especially if you want to accentuate hip movement, then the 1 in on2 should be tiny/almost in place actually. In general, the bigger the stepping, the less hip movement can happen (because the bigger you step, the less "side hip push" capacity you have).

PS This also applies to on1.
 
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Sabrosura said:
Just a technical side note here :) (assuming you're talking about the on2 / on1 basic step): small-small-small is actually the better way to do it, not big-small-small. Especially if you want to accentuate hip movement, then the 1 in on2 should be tiny/almost in place actually. In general, the bigger the stepping, the less hip movement can happen (because the bigger you step, the less "side hip push" capacity you have).

PS This also applies to on1.
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This is what giving useful advice looks like! Thanks a lot!
(I was specially taught the opposite, like big-small-small, but I'll definitely try small-small-small and see what works best for me)
 
chi said:
This is what giving useful advice looks like! Thanks a lot!
(I was specially taught the opposite, like big-small-small, but I'll definitely try small-small-small and see what works best for me)
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You can try just stepping in place as well.
 
Sabrosura said:
Just a technical side note here :) (assuming you're talking about the on2 / on1 basic step): small-small-small is actually the better way to do it, not big-small-small. Especially if you want to accentuate hip movement, then the 1 in on2 should be tiny/almost in place actually. In general, the bigger the stepping, the less hip movement can happen (because the bigger you step, the less "side hip push" capacity you have).

PS This also applies to on1.
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I also think the tap on 4 & 8 helps force you to take small steps.
 
GentleDancer said:
Starting a dance with an complete unknown means the other one can be everything from knowing no basics at all up to a professional dancer: this range is wide, very wide - often too wide to handle well. At a Salsa social with entry fee chances are higher most are dedicated dancers with at least some experience. But some places are attracting people who have no pre-experience at all, e.g. outdoor dancing in a city center where lots of people randomly pass by.

Anecdote no. 1:
I had just arrived at this new venue for the first time and she was the first I asked for a dance. It turned out she had no idea about partner dance, no idea about leading/following. That SBK Party took place in a bowling center (!), the majority of people running around there had come for bowling. Probably she, too, maybe she just wanted to have a look at the dancing. I thought about asking that but did not, because I couldn't find a phrase without sounding offending: "So you have never danced before I guess?" She misunderstood every easy signal: when I raised my left arm for indicating a simple right turn, she started doing a left turn. Her reactions were random and in no relation to whatever I did. Like an electric eel she made random movements whenever I raised an arm. I was not prepared for that and didn't know how to handle the situation. Fortunately the song ended after a while. The situation felt awkward.

Anecdote no. 2 was worse:
It was outdoors in city center and she asked me for a dance. It turned out the same as in anecdote no. 1: she had no idea about leading/following. I was hoping for the end of the song, while forcing myself to put a smile on my face. Probably I'm not good in faking smiles. At the end of the song she stared at me and hissed: "You could smile some more!", immediately turned away and walked off, without giving me any chance to respond. It felt really bad.

These extremes rarely happen, but they will happen again.

I've taken more than thousand hours of classes (easy: just take two a week over ten years makes thousand), paying thousands of euros, to become an acceptable and better lead. Am I obliged to dance with people who never did anything? I think: no.

But walking off the dance-floor in the middle of a dance is not an option. So how to handle that?
I thought about that to protect myself from such situations in the future and have a plan now.

Sometimes girls I ask answer: "But I'm a beginner..." That's a friendly hint.

1) If I had bad dances before I will say: "Ah ok, I see - maybe some other time", smile politely and walk off. She will not love me, but it's better than to give her my forced smiles for the next minutes.
2) If my mood is good I will ask back: "But you did some Salsa classes?" If she says no I will recommend her a dancing school. If she says yes I will go for that.

When she says nothing and I realize on the dance-floor that she has no clue about leading/following, I will stop and start talking to her, explaining the problem. I will lead her to the side and give her a short introduction about following a simple right turn, then recommend her visiting a dancing school.

Dance-floors are not for explaining basics, but for practicing them.
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I would say try having fun with the dance anyway. Do a couple of basics. Talk a bit during the dance. It is only a couple of minutes so I really don't understand why this is a problem.
 
I think in GD's defense, we need to differentiate btw "charity dancing" and asking a random girl who turns out to be a complete beginner.

I don't mind the former and it can even be fun. The latter can get frustrating though, especially if it happens multiple times per night. But to echo what CY said, you have to observe people before you make your move.
 
Governor Moonbeam said:
I think in GD's defense, we need to differentiate btw "charity dancing" and asking a random girl who turns out to be a complete beginner.
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What's the difference between "charity dancing" (where I presume you know it is going to suck for you) and asking a random person with a risk it might suck? In my books they can be equally frustrating. You try to make best of it. It is only four or five minutes. No big deal.

Governor Moonbeam said:
I don't mind the former and it can even be fun. The latter can get frustrating though, especially if it happens multiple times per night. But to echo what CY said, you have to observe people before you make your move.
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Far more frustrating is poor dances with people who have been dancing a long time, haven't improved, and still dance like beginners. You likely know them and they likely know you. The next on slightly less frustrating scale are those who have been dancing a long time but still don't have fundamentals down. That effectively takes out 50% of the potential people you can dance with.

You only need a few good dances to make your night. There is no need to be bothered by a few very bad dances. It is rare to run into two or three random unknown dancers who suck enough to depress you in a single night :)

When you are dancing in a larger scene or festivals, you are more likely to discover some very good dancers than total beginners when dancing randomly.

When visiting or going to a new place, you can size up the general level by observing the floor for one or two songs. Then set your expectations accordingly. If the general level of dancing is low, there is not much you can do.

Try being in a leader heavy venue with low level of dancing :) It will give you a very different perspective.
 
I would say it also depends on how tired you are. To me even if I am super tired, if I dance with someone who has a good level of fundamentals, can still be very enjoyable. There is also sort of a "yin-yan" effect which makes it somewhat effortless despite being tired. If all the fundamentals are off, however, it can feel more like a chore. With beginner's you can keep it simple, so not a big issue, but followers who have danced for a while but are unaware of their faulty fundamentals might have higher expectations on you.
 
Offbeat said:
What's the difference between "charity dancing" (where I presume you know it is going to suck for you) and asking a random person with a risk it might suck? In my books they can be equally frustrating. You try to make best of it. It is only four or five minutes. No big deal.



Far more frustrating is poor dances with people who have been dancing a long time, haven't improved, and still dance like beginners. You likely know them and they likely know you. The next on slightly less frustrating scale are those who have been dancing a long time but still don't have fundamentals down. That effectively takes out 50% of the potential people you can dance with.

You only need a few good dances to make your night. There is no need to be bothered by a few very bad dances. It is rare to run into two or three random unknown dancers who suck enough to depress you in a single night :)

When you are dancing in a larger scene or festivals, you are more likely to discover some very good dancers than total beginners when dancing randomly.

When visiting or going to a new place, you can size up the general level by observing the floor for one or two songs. Then set your expectations accordingly. If the general level of dancing is low, there is not much you can do.

Try being in a leader heavy venue with low level of dancing :) It will give you a very different perspective.
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Lol, didn't realize you had already written something similar to what I was thinking.
 
You guys debating this from a lead's perspective but this situation is many times worse for a follow -- not to dance with a beginner, but to end up dancing with a lead who is rough, pattern robot, throws you around, etc. At least you as leads have control over the dance, so the most that can happen for you is a boring dance, but for us follows, it can be quite a terrible experience (physically and mentally painful) and there is not much we can do other than "grin and bear it".
 
Sabrosura said:
You guys debating this from a lead's perspective but this situation is many times worse for a follow -- not to dance with a beginner, but to end up dancing with a lead who is rough, pattern robot, throws you around, etc. At least you as leads have control over the dance, so the most that can happen for you is a boring dance, but for us follows, it can be quite a terrible experience (physically and mentally painful) and there is not much we can do other than "grin and bear it".
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I don't think anyone disagrees :)
 
Offbeat said:
What's the difference between "charity dancing" (where I presume you know it is going to suck for you) and asking a random person with a risk it might suck? In my books they can be equally frustrating. You try to make best of it. It is only four or five minutes. No big deal.
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In a charity dance it's typically a friend of a friend or someone I know who doesn't get asked a lot.

Offbeat said:
Far more frustrating is poor dances with people who have been dancing a long time, haven't improved, and still dance like beginners. You likely know them and they likely know you. The next on slightly less frustrating scale are those who have been dancing a long time but still don't have fundamentals down. That effectively takes out 50% of the potential people you can dance with.
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I definitely agree. And those folks also get charity dances.

Offbeat said:
Try being in a leader heavy venue with low level of dancing :) It will give you a very different perspective.
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Year after year my scene gets more leader heavy and the level of dancing decreases. You have no idea how I suffer :D
 
Sabrosura said:
Just putting this in perspective ;)
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Followers have told me complaints about other guys quite often lol and I am not an outstanding dancer or anything. Particularly I have heard complaints about guys being too rough, guys trying to complete a figure even when it fails, and guys trying to correct the girl's dancing all the time. I remember one girl told me I saved her night, and when she danced with me, her face was really glowing. Apparently the guy before her tried to correct her all the time. She could follow everything I lead, so maybe it was just the guy's fault.
 
TikiTaka said:
so maybe it was just the guy's fault.
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When it comes to patterns it usually is because:

1. If a guy can lead it, she can follow it
2. If she can’t follow it, the guy should abandon/change. Instead of trying to force it through.
3. If a guy can’t lead properly, a follower won’t be able to follow.
4. If a guy can’t lead, but follower still executes correctly, that is despite the guy being at fault.


Ergo!
 
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