How do you fix someone who can't stay on rhythm?

[terence]

I

Almost every dance community I've been a part of has many dancers who are not on beat. Even the advanced/experienced ones. Same goes for good dance frame. And most of the time, they're getting dances...lots and lots of them.

Social dancing, is not about dance perfection for the "many ". Pretty much all of my social dancing in salsa ( NOT my students ) has been with latinos, , most who never took a lesson in their life, but, had that innate ability to follow sound foundation work with ease . Sure, I can pick fault with most dancers, technically speaking, but that, does not necessarily, make them "bad " dancers.

People choose dance partners for a myriad of reasons, as they do in life ..

And, as an aside..
I have taught ( in the past ) 2 world class musicians, one with a very high profile. He could NOT stay on "1" in Cha cha... the other, was a first chair in a symphony orch. and had huge problems, with one of the BR dances, timing wise .

I have found, over the years, that, musicians do relate differently, to the way dance is constructed .

 

[khabibul35]

Social dancing, is not about dance perfection for the "many ".

I agree that social dancing isn't about perfection and that there's always a limit to a person's physical talent, but I think assuming that something as basic as keeping the rythm of music falls outside of a student's abilities is selling them short.

I'm not suggesting the solution is to beat them over the head with it, but I think that something as fundamental as the keeping beat cannot be glossed over. We as teachers need to come up with nuanced strategies for this when students struggle. The question is: how to teach someone to keep the beat when people struggle, while maintaining a fun/nurturing atmosphere? I don't think the answer is to give up.

FYI, I've found doing more rueda helps solidify timing in beginners who are struggling since they always have a visual reference and are socially pressured to pay attention to it.

I have taught ( in the past ) 2 world class musicians, one with a very high profile. He could NOT stay on "1" in Cha cha... the other, was a first chair in a symphony orch. and had huge problems, with one of the BR dances, timing wise.

Is there a reason you taught Cha cha on 1? Maybe the more musical "on2" would have worked better for him.

 

[terence]

.

FYI, I've found doing more rueda helps solidify timing in beginners who are struggling since they always have a visual reference and are socially pressured to pay attention to it.



Is there a reason you taught Cha cha on 1? Maybe the more musical "on2" would have worked better for him.

1.. I don't teach Rueda..

2. I didn't teach him on "1", he just could not stay on "2".. did I chide him?.. no way !! telling a world class drummer he was off time would not be the best approach . It was a one off lesson with a girlfriend .

As to timing, I don't have any quick fixes, just perseverance . .

 

[tocatimba]

1.. I don't teach Rueda..

2. I didn't teach him on "1", he just could not stay on "2".. did I chide him?.. no way !! telling a world class drummer he was off time would not be the best approach . It was a one off lesson with a girlfriend .

As to timing, I don't have any quick fixes, just perseverance . .

I think for the clave based dances of son, casino, (and to a lesser extent chachachá), the answer is to teach them to dance to the clave. It requires a lot of perseverance but in the end the student is well served. This requires teaching the student how the son montuno is constructed, the various common patterns of the tumbadora, the bongó, the campana, etc etc ... there are no shortcuts.

 

[Azalea Isis]

Before I started salsa I spent 4 years obsessed with African drumming and dancing (as it was taught in my corner of the USA). I also played Afro-Cuban and Haitian rhythms. I have always loved percussion in music and this is one aspect of salsa music that I really enjoy.

I know my timing isn't perfect and I am much better on 1 than on 2. But I am sure my drumming background has helped me immensely to hear and understand the rhythm. So maybe having students drum a simple 4 count and add a clave would help them. Or even have them dance to a simple rhythm like this without any other instruments.

In my opinion the true joy of salsa is feeling locked into the rhythm with the music and other dancers. Because the rhythm is the unifying force that holds everything together. Rhythm is central to life - our hearts beat in rhythm, we breath in rhythm. And dancers who don't tune into this are missing the boat.

But everyone dances for different reasons...

 

[Voodoo]

Listening and appreciating the structure of Salsa music is important for people who don't have good natural rhythm. Here's an app I used to help with understanding Salsa music better and improving rhythm http://www.salsabeatmachine.org/ . It works on Desktop, iOS and Android.

 

[Groove On]

I'll just throw some random musician thoughts out there. This is musician stuff, that has helped with my dancing. Mainly to do with ear training.

1. My favorite story about ear training comes from a jazz teacher (Hal Galper) who asked his students "Who here feels like you can't play the music the way you hear it in your head?" Of course, all the students raised their hand. And the teacher replied "You are all wrong. You play the music EXACTLY the way you hear it in your head." A very interesting thing to think about when I see dancers flailing about on the floor - or moving extremely well,

2. His follow up story comes from Dizzy Gillespie, who was asked how he played the way he did. Dizzy replied "People think this is the way I hear the music in my head - do bop di bop di di doo bop bop doop, but what I actually hear in my head is DO! BOP! DI! BOP! DI! DI! DOO! BOP! BOP! DOOP!" Just something to think about in terms of how we actually hear music. I'll just add that if you are dancing to a song and shout he song (in your head) or vice versa sing it in a whisper (in you head) - you will notice a difference in the way that your body "interprets" the song. In other words, it's not just the song that tells your body how to move, it's also the type of energy and imagination that you add to the song (in your head). Of course I can't guarantee it works for everyone, but it works for me, both when I'm dancing and playing the piano.

In music, you generally start training your rhythm by practicing duplets, triplets and quadruplets, until your ear just hears the sound of it without having to think about it. In dance I've had the exact same experience doing walking exercises ad nauseum to those same base rhythms (walk, triple step etc). The trick with dancers is to remind them that they're not just training the body, they are also training the Ear at the exact same time. Dancers should be able recognize those basic rhythms by ear so they can respond physically. For Afro-Cuban, try to break down large rhythms into smaller ones, so you can play with those as well.

I'll just throw one more thing at you that might be useful for dancers. Body percussion warmups! Notice he doesn't use anything more complicated than the basic duplets, triplets and quadruplets, just in different orders and timing.

 

[Groove On]

Just to be complete aside from duplets, triplets, quadruplets, learning short-long, and long-short as basic rhythms and you'll be able to do almost anything rhythmically.

 

[elanimal]

Within a dance, I usually do a cross body lead to get the person on time. Usually they will step back on 1 when dancing on1. On2... if they lost it repeatedly, we're definitely switching to on1.

 

[khabibul35]

I'll just throw some random musician thoughts out there. This is musician stuff, that has helped with my dancing. Mainly to do with ear training.

Wow, some very inspiring stuff in your post. I'm definitely going to try this some day, but I think I'll need to do some body percussion practice myself first!

That being said, your video inspired me to try a small body percussion thing like "We Will Rock You" by Queen and see if I can get half the class to clap the beat and the other to dance quick-quick-slow to it. Crossing my fingers that it helps and thank's so much for the tips!

 

[mlemonl]

Rhythm finding is pretty much a personal goal - you really have to seek to improve it and take classes with capable teachers. Guess the next question is how to teach/learn rhythm effectively and there's a lot of good posts about it here.

Had a dance last night that made me think about this a little more. I was dancing with a lead that appeared to have been dancing for awhile, many moves and nuances. It was overall a fine dance, but we will always step early on the 4th and the 8th count, even for simple crossbody or right turns, that the entire dance seemed rushed. And that's when I realize there is absolutely nothing I can do but to hone into my following senses, and really listen hard to the leading cues instead of the music. Makes me work up a sweat playing catch up but I like to think it improves the following abilities.

 

[lidiap]

Had a dance last night that made me think about this a little more. I was dancing with a lead that appeared to have been dancing for awhile, many moves and nuances. It was overall a fine dance, but we will always step early on the 4th and the 8th count, even for simple crossbody or right turns, that the entire dance seemed rushed. And that's when I realize there is absolutely nothing I can do but to hone into my following senses, and really listen hard to the leading cues instead of the music. Makes me work up a sweat playing catch up but I like to think it improves the following abilities.

When it comes to timing, I’m not sure I’d want to follow the lead instead of the music. I probably couldn’t do it anyway. Either choice would make the dance not so great: Either you’re following the lead’s time and it feels rushed/off time, or follow the music (assuming with correct timing) but then you and the lead won’t mesh. We all have such dances occasionally but I always keep my own timing and don’t allow the lead to rush me (in my case it typically happens with leads who switched from on1 to on2 but haven’t quite mastered it yet). Sometimes he gets it and adjusts, sometimes he cannot, and then I try to separate, do shines, etc. And if the dance is not that great, oh well, it’s just 3 minutes. But no, I will not follow bad timing.

 

[mlemonl]

When it comes to timing, I’m not sure I’d want to follow the lead instead of the music. I probably couldn’t do it anyway. Either choice would make the dance not so great: Either you’re following the lead’s time and it feels rushed/off time, or follow the music (assuming with correct timing) but then you and the lead won’t mesh. We all have such dances occasionally but I always keep my own timing and don’t allow the lead to rush me (in my case it typically happens with leads who switched from on1 to on2 but haven’t quite mastered it yet). Sometimes he gets it and adjusts, sometimes he cannot, and then I try to separate, do shines, etc. And if the dance is not that great, oh well, it’s just 3 minutes. But no, I will not follow bad timing.

Understandably! Personally, I learned to not mind it as much since I realized that I'm more capable of following off time than I used to be (too busy struggling with my own timing!) and if it's a mild case of bad timing, one frustrated person better than two frustrated individuals.

Though when it gets to a point where I can't follow at all or it's unsafe because they try to lead multiple spins when I don't have proper footing, I would definitely do what you mentioned for this social setting.

 

[sofar]

I was dancing with a lead that appeared to have been dancing for awhile, many moves and nuances.

The problem is, a lot of teachers focus on patterns instead of rhythm and timing. The focus is, too often, on teaching leaders "cool new stuff" that is often tricky to get the timing down for, and then failing to encourage them to ever get the timing. The result is a bunch of guys who know how to lead stuff but who lead it off time (and don't know they're doing so).

There's a somewhat popular instructor in my city who does an intermediate class before weekly salsa nights. He posts videos of his students on Facebook, and I just groan when I see them muscling through all these patterns while ignoring the music. And then these guys and gals get turned loose on the dance floor.

The longer I dance, the less agreeable I am about following bad timing. So maybe I'll refuse to be rushed through a cross-body lead, for example, or make more of a point looking like I'm enjoying/grooving to the music and make some more visible indicators of hitting the beats. Like you said, if it's do-able, I'll try to match the leader's timing, but, as you also said, it can be dangerous (at worst) and not fun (at best).

 

[Black Spark]

You can't dance to the beat if you can't hear the beat. It helps to listen to the music if you like the music. So I suppose one thing you could ask them is if they like the music? Do they listen to salsa music outside of dancing like any other music. If they don't like the music, and many salsa dancers claim that they don't, then it will be hard for them to listen and care about being on the beat.

Don Baarns, on YouTube, has a series of videos about listing to music. He uses pop and rock music for most of his listening examples. Understanding and appreciating how to listen to all kinds of music should translate to salsa music as well.

Very good point about actually liking the music. For many salsa is just another hobby, fitness, get out of the house, social event. The music does not actually touch their hearts. Those who really feel and love the music listen to it all the time at home in the car at work. They not only listen to it but move to it as well practicing their newly learned steps. Those are the ones that start very early going to social dancing events events and keep doing that outside their lessons. They are the ones in general that make the most progress and develop their sense of timing.
Of course speaking partly out of personal experience because I still don't feel that good yet and although my roots are from the carribean it was from an english colony. Cuban rythme is very complicated and if you have not grown up with it it is still difficult to learn.
But what has definitely helped me is when they play the right songs. It seems to make me move, step and dance differently. I am learning Cuban style salsa in an advanced + class and our teacher is teaching us to appreciate different styles of cuban salsa including Timba. I did not like this style at first because I found it very difficult to dance in time with a constantly changing rythme that also paused frequently once you get use to it really seems to help in timing despite the quicker rythme. Also the feeling that it gives you. Of course for someone else it might be a slower rythme or a certain group. Also I have to admit I don't like all Cuban salsa music and when they play those songs I move passively with not muoh zeal and fire. So definitely if students can find and play their salsa favourites to practice to I am convinced it can make a big difference:
Personal I feel if latin music does not touch your heart at all then maybe your better of looking for another style of music and dance that does.
But also agree if they are happy with their level and ability and they are still having fun then don't worry too you don't personal have to dance with them outside the lessons and the other students that are good can practice what they have learned at the parties they need to go to to maintain and develop their levels. And like you said even when you go to salsa festivals you will inevitably and periodically find yourself dancing with an out of timer and the good students won't make a big deal out of it begause they experience regularly in there classes. Just smile and think just two or three more minutes to go.
Just my personal opinion anyway as a "still got a lot to learn salsa student".

 

[granrey]

I have danced Merengue and Bachata since I was a kid cause that's what I grew up dancing with.

However, even though I listened to Salsa since I was a kid. I could not understand how to dance it......

My main issue was understanding the concept of bit, bit counts, omitted bits, the pauses, dancing on 2 or on 1, different styles and not having enough formal music education.

In merengue and Bachata. The feet are doing something in every bit, plus on bachata the bits are very obvious. I could follow the music even though I did not know what a bit was.

What I did to fix the problem?

Well, I came to this forum long time ago and got in contact with the salsamerlizer and watching videos about the history of music (BBC howard Goodall), then I try to learn to read music by learning to play piano. These 3 things together really made a big difference.


At the same time, I learned to identify the first bit on every song and make sure I complete my dancing cycle exaclty by the time the next first bit shows up. In a way, I was just dancing like 1_, _, _,_,_,_,_ and 1 again. The next achievement was being able to identify the 5. Then I knew when to go forward and back in dancing exaclty with the music.


After I picked up the bit and learned the basics steps on my own, I started taking drop in classes and formal classes. I also joined meetup groups of salsa dancers. At then dancing is learned by dancing.

On this, I noticed the things that in my opinion teachers do wrong.

1) they assume students can pick up the bit and don't give sources for them to learn. Most teachers don't even touch the topic. They just teach "123,567" or "quick quick slow___quick quick slow"

2) a level one course usually has 6 to 8 classes of 2 hours each. You learn basic moves and turns. On level 2, they introduce combos. However, at this stage, the students are still lacking lots of basic turns and moves. The combos learned at this point are mostly staged. This pattern continues on level 3 and so on. So, most people are learning staged dancing. Few teachers teach proper techniques to lead and follow.

3) they also teach a bunch of steps, moves and combos that people rarely use or moves that people would rarely attempt with someone they have not danced before.

Aside from what I did. I would recommend people to take lots of level one/two classes with different teachers and schools. They all teach different basic moves that will improve your dancing a lot.

Also watch lots of YouTube videos looking for basic simple moves.

 

[LarsM]

We all have such dances occasionally but I always keep my own timing and don’t allow the lead to rush me (in my case it typically happens with leads who switched from on1 to on2 but haven’t quite mastered it yet).

Haha this is me exactly, one month into learning on2 (unfortunately I can't drop on1 entirely since 80% of the follows in my scene only dance on1, which makes it harder to learn on2). Oh well, at least I can feel myself going off beat and cheat in a correction by waiting and do a CBL on 1.

 

[Mr. Nuevolution]

To add my 2 cents. I have actually have a drill that helps with timing. Most of our students actually get it after applying it. We use a clapping drill. After giving a quick indicator of what to listen for (downbeat) in the music I have them clap to the time I mention. For example, I will say clap on the core beats (1,3,5, & 7). In the beginning it is a bit rough but after a couple of lessons, they are actually picking up. Most of the students are very away of timing as we push that in their heads on the first lesson. Hope that helps a little.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Mr. Nuevolution, would you recomend the same clapping, that works for most of your students, for the one who comes to you asking for help 'cause he can't seem to find the rhythem?
I don't want to question the clapping (again and again and again), it works for some or even most.
But to whom are you teaching with clapping? Newbies, or the odd ones, who have tried for a year and still can't seem to get it?


@lidiap
have you ever asked an off beat lead how he feels when you don't follow his off beat lead?
He'll swear to you it's all good, he'll play cool with it. And then he'll swear to him self he'll remember your face never ever to dance with you again. Because just then his anxiety skyrocketed, he can't let go, he can't feel, he'll be all in his head desperately seeking the timing he hasn't got.
When I see girls pull a long face, stubbornly marching their way through the 3 minutes, with some guy who is clearly a beginner, then even I will remember her face for the night, and for the sake of solidarity I won't dance with her either.

 

[BullitproofSoul]

I'm not looking for a panacea, just ideas. For example, the other day I did an exercise that emulated a silent disco. The follows put on headphones and the leaders had to lead to a beat they couldn't hear. The goal was twofold: 1) to get the leads to pay attention to the timing that the follow set and try to recognize this as the beat to which they should dance. 2) to get the leads to pay attention to the cues that the follow set in terms of how they were feeling the music and what they seemed like they wanted to do at that moment.

Now, guess what, during that exercise, all the guys managed to keep time. They went back to being off time the very next song they danced when we put the speakers back on, but it was still a breakthrough of sorts because I got them to be aware of the concept of dancing to a set timing that was outside of themselves.

Havent read this whole thread, so maybe this was suggested, but have you tried using those instrumentals that have the 1-2-3-4 called out over the beat?

Or even bringing a laptop to class, amplifying it, and loading the Salsa beat machine webpage

http://www.salsabeatmachine.org/

This calls out the beat (if you wish) and will allow you to isolate the different instrumental elements of the salsa groove. Students can then learn to pick out what instruments best help guide them to stay on beat. Some will use the cowbell, other the conga slaps, etc