How do you feel about Bachata?

[toowideforturns]

This really is a trap. The common argument against bachata esp sensual is about cultural appropriation. And that's valid. However it wasn't sensual bachata that led this. Urban bachata which is now called bachata for most purposes took Dominican patterns, and made a whole new dance forms. Yet it's the most popular form of bachata and no one complains about it. Korke and Judith at least added a qualifier to the name signifying that it's not the original.

People complain about how it should not be called bachata because it's a completely different thing. So is urban.

And had people not called it sensual "bachata", same people would complain that it wasn't paying homage to the roots and that they stole bachata and gave it a different name

I like Dominican bachata, I like sensual bachata but I don't like the generic form that we have crowned as modern or urban bachata.
Ultimately I think people hate sensual bachata for the same reason anybody hates something new
They're not good at it or
They like clutching pearls

 

[MamboJazz]

This really is a trap. The common argument against bachata esp sensual is about cultural appropriation. And that's valid.

This is a years old thread and the caravane has moved on while the coin flipped. Nowadays youngsters are into bachazouk and Influence, and the older spanish bachata sensual dancers say to them: "But this is not bachata!" They have some reasons saying this, but as always no youngster cares about it.

 

[Bostontraitor]

This is a years old thread and the caravane has moved on while the coin flipped. Nowadays youngsters are into bachazouk and Influence, and the older spanish bachata sensual dancers say to them: "But this is not bachata!" They have some reasons saying this, but as always no youngster cares about it.

Sensual bachata borrows elements from Zouk, so Zoukchata isn’t really hard to understand. It simply depends on how much Zouk and how much bachata is blended into the dance. I’ve danced bachata with Zouk dancers and Zouk with sensual bachata dancers, and everyone has been very open minded.

 

[MamboJazz]

I’ve danced bachata with Zouk dancers and Zouk with sensual bachata dancers, and everyone has been very open minded.

Not everyone, especially not in Spain, the hotbed of bachata sensual. Many say if you turn off the music and you can't see anymore that it is bachata then it ain't.

This spanish guy went viral in Spain showing a video of recent bachazouk and repeatedly comments (in spanish, but it's not hard to grasp what his face says): "This is not bachata, nothing from it" ("No es bachata, nada de bachata"), "This is 100% zouk". Then he changes the music to typical zouk music and plays the same dance video to it: "This is 100% zouk". (One could add the joke: it must be bachata because she's wearing white sneakers and tank top).

The irony is that dominicans always said the same about sensual bachata: "This is not bachata!". Nobody in europe cared, so dominican bachata has disappeared in europe. Try to dance it with young european women and you will fail.

That's the fate of a highly innovative dance. Now the classic bachata sensual is vanishing, headrolls are out of fashion already, it's all about tilted turns. A few years from now bachata sensual might have disappeared outside Spain, it's getting erased from the equation: sensual haters may open champagne bottles soon. The scene might get separated into smaller subscenes.

Now some commentars say: "Why care how to name it?" Indeed everyone is free to do in dancing what he wants and people do. For me it's just interesting how fashions come and go and complete dances appear and disappear.

Therefore it has its advantages that salsa is not a very innovative dance, you can dance it still in ten years for sure.

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[Chris_Yannick]

Now the classic bachata sensual is vanishing, headrolls are out of fashion already, it's all about tilted turns. A few years from now bachata sensual might have disappeared outside Spain, it's getting erased from the equation: sensual haters may open champagne bottles soon. The scene might get separated into smaller subscenes.

Damn. I thought the headroll was the BS staple. But now even that's out of fashion and BS is disappearing? lol. Hallelujah!

Therefore it has its advantages that salsa is not a very innovative dance, you can dance it still in ten years for sure.

Agreed. Say what you want about Salsa dancers being culturally obssessive, but they know how important it is to go back to their roots. Today's pre-eminent mambo dancers are still paying homage to the Palladium with the way they dance and by keeping the music alive.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

As an ousider, Zouk and Bachata look the same to me now.

But I remember when Zouk started to gain traction outside of Brazil around 2010 and it looked nothing like how it looks now. Bachata and Zouk were separate entities. Now it seems they share the same music. The lack of identity is going to be their downfall.

 

[Gaviota]

Kind of disagree re salsa keeping true to its roots. A lot of Euro linea has the same disconnected railsy feel that sensual bachata carries compared to Dominican. The other week I ran into a visiting NY salsa dancer on the Cuban floor (not pro level, just a decent follow who learnt salsa during a couple year stint in NY). It was a revelation, so much better a dance than most any I've had with the festival-going linear dancers.

(The dance may stay surface-level compatible, but the same is true for bachata -- you can still dance a box step with a sensual dancer, it just feels bad.)

 

[MamboJazz]

Kind of disagree re salsa keeping true to its roots. A lot of Euro linea has the same disconnected railsy feel that sensual bachata carries compared to Dominican.

I don't understand "railsy" and not even the urban slang dictionary on google knows it, so maybe a typo? But I guess you mean the "contact impro"-like EU on2 style to slow music? That's actually a very small pool, but I understand if somebody thinks "better not let it grow". You can't dance this to classic fast salsa at least.

Some sensual bachateros feel their dance gets robbed because people dance zouk to bachata music, and even the bachata music gets replaced by anglophone pop music. So the problem is indeed about identity, and if there is a lack of it then the dance will permantly shift to new fashions - which can be interesting first but later frustrating because the shift will never stop. You will feel old when all your moves are out of fashion after a few years.

Some dances share a compatible beat, I know places where WCS, zouk and kizomba share the same dancefloor and dance to the same beat. This is hardly possible with salsa music.

 

[sunsoul]

I think that zouk is generally seen in a positive way in Spain. Quite a few dancers from zouk and zouk moves have been incorporated into bachata sensual.

I saw a festival in New York advertised as SBKZ..

 

[1derpalm]

Not everyone, especially not in Spain, the hotbed of bachata sensual. Many say if you turn off the music and you can't see anymore that it is bachata then it ain't.

This spanish guy went viral in Spain showing a video of recent bachazouk and repeatedly comments (in spanish, but it's not hard to grasp what his face says): "This is not bachata, nothing from it" ("No es bachata, nada de bachata"), "This is 100% zouk". Then he changes the music to typical zouk music and plays the same dance video to it: "This is 100% zouk". (One could add the joke: it must be bachata because she's wearing white sneakers and tank top).

The irony is that dominicans always said the same about sensual bachata: "This is not bachata!". Nobody in europe cared, so dominican bachata has disappeared in europe. Try to dance it with young european women and you will fail.

That's the fate of a highly innovative dance. Now the classic bachata sensual is vanishing, headrolls are out of fashion already, it's all about tilted turns. A few years from now bachata sensual might have disappeared outside Spain, it's getting erased from the equation: sensual haters may open champagne bottles soon. The scene might get separated into smaller subscenes.

Now some commentars say: "Why care how to name it?" Indeed everyone is free to do in dancing what he wants and people do. For me it's just interesting how fashions come and go and complete dances appear and disappear.

Therefore it has its advantages that salsa is not a very innovative dance, you can dance it still in ten years for sure.

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I just don't understand because factually, zouk isn't even zouk.
Sound soothing like the zouk that was crated and still listened to an d danced to in the country of origin.
If the entire culinary world and uneducated masses put mayonnaise, scallops and peppercorns on a shoe and call it paella, does that now make it paella? Other than the extremity of my example, there is no difference.

 

[Gaviota]

I don't understand "railsy" and not even the urban slang dictionary on google knows it, so maybe a typo? But I guess you mean the "contact impro"-like EU on2 style to slow music? That's actually a very small pool, but I understand if somebody thinks "better not let it grow". You can't dance this to classic fast salsa at least.

With "railsy" I mean the self-propelled marching along the line (back and forth in salsa, sideways in bachata), "dancing on rails", instead of dancing with your partner

 

[MamboJazz]

With "railsy" I mean the self-propelled marching along the line (back and forth in salsa, sideways in bachata), "dancing on rails", instead of dancing with your partner

Ok, now I understand "railsy", but what is your message: that linear salsa feels more disconnected than cuban style or in EU more than in NYC? Then the usage of connection is critical here, because sensual bachateros say the have a lot of connection by dancing so close, more than in salsa, so if you argue with disconnection they will shake their heads. But maybe you mean connected to tradition?

 

[Gaviota]

Ok, now I understand "railsy", but what is your message: that linear salsa feels more disconnected than cuban style or in EU more than in NYC? Then the usage of connection is critical here, because sensual bachateros say the have a lot of connection by dancing so close, more than in salsa, so if you argue with disconnection they will shake their heads. But maybe you mean connected to tradition?

Tradition doesn't come in.

I value connection to the music and connection to my partner. This should manifest while dancing basics. It can happen because my partner and I naturally step in a compatible way, or because my partner is adaptable enough to go along with my stepping, or by me adapting to my partners stepping (where that still feels connected to the music for me).

So there's essentially two options for good dances, either they have a nice internalized basic (rare with the studio linear salsa / sensual bachata crowd), or they're good at following *and* open enough to go along with how I like to move.

It may well be that they're all connected with each other in their basics. They may even have a form of connection to the music. But my dance with that NY dancer indicates that the parts of the dance that I find important to preserve ("keeping true to its roots"), namely the feel and shape of the basic stepping, have largely been lost

 

[MamboJazz]

But my dance with that NY dancer indicates that the parts of the dance that I find important to preserve ("keeping true to its roots"), namely the feel and shape of the basic stepping, have largely been lost

You talk about your feel, I have an idea what it could mean but feel is unfortunately too vague for me to be sure to understand what you mean. Instructors have the same problem when teaching connection and students hardly understand what they mean. I sometimes feel a very good connection with really good followers, but I would have a hard time explaining to others what I mean.

 

[dermont]

Now the classic bachata sensual is vanishing, headrolls are out of fashion already, it's all about tilted turns. A few years from now bachata sensual might have disappeared outside Spain, it's getting erased from the equation: sensual haters may open champagne bottles soon. The scene might get separated into smaller subscenes.

I don't believe that's true, at most it's a local phenomenon. I was just at a bachata festival (not in Spain), I saw at least 10 times (more like 20, lol) as many headrolls than I saw the typical zouk head movements during the socials. I was also at one open level bachazouk workshop, from what I saw most followers didn't really like it.
The fact that something is gaining popularity in a niche does not necessarily mean the trend is going to continue. Kizomba was also gaining popularity in the 2010s (very fast around 2016-2018 locally for me) but it stalled. I doubt that there is a place outside of France and Portugal where kizomba is more popular that salsa countrywise (locally may be another question). I doubt that it became more popular than bachata anywhere.

 

[Offbeat]

The irony is that dominicans always said the same about sensual bachata: "This is not bachata!".

Who said that? Most Dominicans were hardly aware of what’s happening in Europe or cared about it.

It is also true that adding bachata to sensual was a misnomer. Just by calling an existing dance but completely changing its character does not make it the same dance.

Nobody in europe cared, so dominican bachata has disappeared in europe.

Did it ever exist to disappear?

Try to dance it with young european women and you will fail.

Not really. But then no one tries to dance bachata with them. Now if they go to a bachata (where there isn’t any sensual), they might find themselves out of place. In my very first exposure to BS, I immediately walked out of the room.

That's the fate of a highly innovative dance.

Innovation doesn’t necessarily mean better or good.

complete dances appear and disappear.

Some like salsa, swing, tango have survived despite changes to them. The changes did change the dance, they only put more emphasis on certain elements which were already part of the dance vocabulary.

 

[toowideforturns]

So I started researching this. It seems the "real" bachata is very different from what is Dominican bachata today


Like seriously I can't find any footage of bachata from before 2000s.

It also looks like bachata was mostly considered shameful in Dominican Republic until the 2000s. It was mostly ignored in favour of merengue which by the way is also a Dominican invention
It was banned, censured, erased until Europeans picked it up.


Real bachata looked more like a box step kizomba from what I have gathered rather than Dominican bachata.
If anyone has authoritative footage before 2000 of Dominican bachata dancing, pleased share.

YouTube might be biasing me so please someone hates sensual bachata find it for me

 

[toowideforturns]

I don't believe that's true, at most it's a local phenomenon. I was just at a bachata festival (not in Spain), I saw at least 10 times (more like 20, lol) as many headrolls than I saw the typical zouk head movements during the socials. I was also at one open level bachazouk workshop, from what I saw most followers didn't really like it.
The fact that something is gaining popularity in a niche does not necessarily mean the trend is going to continue. Kizomba was also gaining popularity in the 2010s (very fast around 2016-2018 locally for me) but it stalled. I doubt that there is a place outside of France and Portugal where kizomba is more popular that salsa countrywise (locally may be another question). I doubt that it became more popular than bachata anywhere.

New Delhi. When I visited before COVID, most socials were kizomba socials with some bachata thrown in. Even salsa nights were kizoomba. They just used salsa because of marketing value.
There was one main anchor event that was salsa but everyone else wanted to do kizomba and bachata exclusively.
I don't know about now. I think kizomba took. A beating thanks to COVID

 

[Gaviota]

You talk about your feel, I have an idea what it could mean but feel is unfortunately too vague for me to be sure to understand what you mean. Instructors have the same problem when teaching connection and students hardly understand what they mean. I sometimes feel a very good connection with really good followers, but I would have a hard time explaining to others what I mean.

Have you ever two dances next to each other: One with a relative beginner doing simple things where the movement and musicality felt nice and you didn't even think of leading anything more complicated (with no particular non-dance connection). The other with a rather advanced dancer where doing easy stuff doesn't feel particularly good and you keep doing figures just to fill the space (again no particularly bad personal connection).

I'd always choose the first dance over the second.

What I'm describing is 90% of that crowd feeling like the second.

 

[Gaviota]

Have you ever two dances next to each other:

Or maybe the better analogy would be how two dances with similar level followers feel, one that has put 75% of her training into performance, the other 75% into social dancing.