guaguanco?

salsim said:
there is Guajira de salon which is nothing more than a Guajira-Son popularised by Guillermo Portabales
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Los Muñequitos de Matanzas.... i'm a fan of the traditional Guaguanco, this is not a Guaguanco with Son exposed in the previous page of this thread, we can see that no Son elements are present.... take care all

 
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@Richie
I have no problem with the term "Guaguancó" used differently. It's sth. common. Just look on all the differente uses of the term "Mambo". Of course I understand what (Rumba) Guaguancó is and elements of this Guaguancó can be found mixed in other songs and its an important element of contemporary Timba. I thought that the Salsa Guaguancó might somehow have derived from Rumba Guaguancó.
In Oye mi Quinto de Mayito Rivera, you can hear a typical Diana with the 3 tumbadoras, clave, cata and chequere and, after the Diana, it changes to Son. In Raza, instead of the typical Diana, the intro is music from ciclo Congo, but the main part is based on traditional (Rumba) Guaguancó. In most of what others posted before, I just hear Salsa with someone singing "Oye mi Guaguancó" and me thinking "I wish but I don't hear it". Ave Maria Morena is not Guaguancó, it's a Yambú, originally played with Son Clave.
 
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Humpa said:
@Richie
I have no problem with the term "Guaguancó" used differently. It's sth. common. Just look on all the differente uses of the term "Mambo". Of course I understand what (Rumba) Guaguancó is and elements of this Guaguancó can be found mixed in other songs and its an important element of contemporary Timba. I thought that the Salsa Guaguancó might somehow have derived from Rumba Guaguancó.
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It did. Thus why it's referred to as "Guaguancó de Salon."

In Oye mi Quinto de Mayito Rivera, you can hear a typical Diana with the 3 tumbadoras, clave, cata and chequere and, after the Diana, it changes to Son. In Raza, instead of the typical Diana, the intro is music from ciclo Congo, but the main part is based on traditional (Rumba) Guaguancó. In most of what others posted before, I just hear Salsa with someone singing "Oye mi Guaguancó" and me thinking "I wish but I don't hear it".
I don't know what to tell you. I didn't take a listen to the examples, just what was writte. In "Guaguancó Margarito" by TP the Rumba element is in the introductory vocals by the lead singer and the backup vocalists ("La La La"). By the time it reaches the coro they've gone Mambo-Son.

Ave Maria Morena is not Guaguancó, it's a Yambú, originally played with Son Clave.
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I was debating that upon listening to it and my thought was this version by Cachao was done a bit faster than a the garden variety Yambu. Either way the reason I cite it is for the lyrics. Which also helps to define certain music styles in how they are expressed. The clave on the Cachao track is in 3-2 Rumba clave.
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Hypothetically, if I take our mi Guaguancó and play an acoustic cover, singing it with the fake deep sincerity of, say, Jack Johnson, and kept the same melody and structure but sang it like a white dude at open mic,.would that still be Guaguancó (according to many sites, salsa covers of Guaguancó are still.guaguancó..)?
 
Must say I don't really understand why some feel inclined to deny the existence of "guaguancó de salon" or whatever we should call these. It seems pretty clear they exist beyond just as covers and references to rumba guaguancó. I'd be much more interested in exploring the connections...

Thanks a lot Richie for asking Sonny Bravo! The guajeos do seem like the most distinct feature.

Regarding terms like "son-guaguancó", I seem to remember reading it somewhere referring to one of Arsenio Rodriguez' variants of son, and then connected it to recordings like Oiga Mi Guaguancó or Lo Que Dice Justi. It's quite possibly not an established term, though it doesn't seem completely wrong either to label those guaguancó de salon as son-related.

The best reference I could find just now is from http://www.lajiribilla.cu/una-propuesta-de-ruta-para-el-son-cubano/ -- I'd guess there's some better sources backing this...
Uno de los primeros y más importantes conjuntos fue el del tresero y compositor Arsenio Rodríguez, que enriqueció el género, no solo con su obra, sino que amplió el formato instrumental de los antiguos sextetos y septetos. [...] Fue un conjunto cuyo repertorio estuvo integrado por boleros, pero sobre todo fue famoso por la calidad de sus interpretaciones del son, en sus variantes: son-guaguancó y son-afro. Desde entonces, esta forma musical comienza una evolución que aún no termina.
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That search also led me to Celia Cruz' 1966 album Son Con Guaguancó, which features two guaguancó de salon (Son Con Guaguancó and Tremendo Guaguancó), labeled just "Guaguanco" on the sleeve. Here's an earlier guaguancó de salon she recorded with La Sonora Matancera in 1961, Sabroso Guaguancó

 
bort said:
Must say I don't really understand why some feel inclined to deny the existence of "guaguancó de salon" or whatever we should call these. It seems pretty clear they exist beyond just as covers and references to rumba guaguancó. I'd be much more interested in exploring the connections...

Thanks a lot Richie for asking Sonny Bravo! The guajeos do seem like the most distinct feature.

Regarding terms like "son-guaguancó", I seem to remember reading it somewhere referring to one of Arsenio Rodriguez' variants of son, and then connected it to recordings like Oiga Mi Guaguancó or Lo Que Dice Justi. It's quite possibly not an established term, though it doesn't seem completely wrong either to label those guaguancó de salon as son-related.

The best reference I could find just now is from http://www.lajiribilla.cu/una-propuesta-de-ruta-para-el-son-cubano/ -- I'd guess there's some better sources backing this...



That search also led me to Celia Cruz' 1966 album Son Con Guaguancó, which features two guaguancó de salon (Son Con Guaguancó and Tremendo Guaguancó), labeled just "Guaguanco" on the sleeve. Here's an earlier guaguancó de salon she recorded with La Sonora Matancera in 1961, Sabroso Guaguancó

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That's a great track and yes, aligned with the rhythms/structures of the Guaguanco de Salon we're trying to capture. Maybe I'm misreading the thread, but I don't believe folks are denying the existence of that sub-genre. It's clearly a thing. Anyway, came here to say love this part of the thread and especially love this sub-genre.
 
Gumercindo said:
That's a great track and yes, aligned with the rhythms/structures of the Guaguanco de Salon we're trying to capture. Maybe I'm misreading the thread, but I don't believe folks are denying the existence of that sub-genre. It's clearly a thing. Anyway, came here to say love this part of the thread and especially love this sub-genre.
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correct, you are not misreading.... as i wrote before, there is a Guajira De Salon popularised by Guillermo Portabales which is nothing more than a Guajira-Son not invented by Portabales because La Guantanamera a Guajira-Son predates Guajira De Salon, also Son-Guaguanco predates Guaguanco De Salon....we can give things a commercial name (term) which at the end is just that, a commercial name.... as you know, with this i am not saying that it does not exist :) take care
 
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Two more, from Vol. 3 of Las Estrellas Areito de Cuba (1980).

Que Traigan El Guaguancó
"Pensando estoy que cuando Arsenio al extranjero se marchó... no creo que se llevó el ritmo del guaguancó... no creo que se llevó el ritmo del son cubano"

Guaguancó A Todos Los Barrios
 
I also do not deny the existence of Guaguancó de Salon but I doubt it's a subgenre of Rumba Guaguancó or part of a common genre with Rumba Guaguancó. Guaguancó de Salon may refer to Rumba Guaguancó but not even that is necessarily the case. I remember a Cuban dancer refering to my casual street parties as "puro guaguancó" when he wanted to compare them to an expensive gala party where the same kind of music is played. The song from Estrellas de Areito to me just sounds like a Son. Other than in Oye mi Quinto from Mayito Rivera, I don't hear the common elements with Rumba Guaguancó, neither in the structure, nor in the lyrics, the instruments, the rythm or the flow.
 
bort said:
Must say I don't really understand why some feel inclined to deny the existence of "guaguancó de salon" or whatever we should call these. It seems pretty clear they exist beyond just as covers and references to rumba guaguancó. I'd be much more interested in exploring the connections...

Thanks a lot Richie for asking Sonny Bravo! The guajeos do seem like the most distinct feature.

Regarding terms like "son-guaguancó", I seem to remember reading it somewhere referring to one of Arsenio Rodriguez' variants of son, and then connected it to recordings like Oiga Mi Guaguancó or Lo Que Dice Justi. It's quite possibly not an established term, although it doesn't seem completely wrong either to label those guaguancó de salon as they are-related.

The best reference I could find just now is from http://www.lajiribilla.cu/una-propuesta-de-ruta-para-el-son-cubano/ -- I'd guess there's some better sources backing this.. .



That search also led me to Celia Cruz' 1966 album Son Con Guaguancó, which features two guaguancó de salon (Son Con Guaguancó and Tremendo Guaguancó), labeled just "Guaguanco" on the sleeve. Here's an earlier guaguancó de salon she recorded with La Sonora Matancera in 1961, Sabroso Guaguancó

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The percussion has an undeniable rumba feel to it
 
1derpalm said:
Hypothetically, if I take our mi Guaguancó and play an acoustic cover, singing it with the fake deep sincerity of, say, Jack Johnson, and kept the same melody and structure but sang it like a white dude at open mic,.would that still be Guaguancó (according to many sites, salsa covers of Guaguancó are still.guaguancó..)?
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No. It would just be a **** rendition.

Whichever sites are indicating that Salsa Guaguancós are still folkloric Guaguancó-Rumbas are the offspring of Crack addicts preyed upon by Reagan-era C.I.A. agents.
 
Humpa said:
I also do not deny the existence of Guaguancó de Salon but I doubt it's a subgenre of Rumba Guaguancó or part of a common genre with Rumba Guaguancó.
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It's a subgenre of Son. Using Guaguancó elements or devices. Predominantly in the vocal phrasing commonly expressed in Guaguancó voicing. When you hear Rolando LaSerie sing "Belen, belen, belen, belen, beleeeeeeen, belen..." in the intro to EL GUARAPACHOSO in Cachao's "Master Session Vol II," you're listening to a Guaguancó... DE SALON. Over a Son Montuno/Guaracha groove.

The song from Estrellas de Areito to me just sounds like a Son. Other than in Oye mi Quinto from Mayito Rivera, I don't hear the common elements with Rumba Guaguancó, neither in the structure, nor in the lyrics, the instruments, the rythm or the flow.
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The intro to the following falls under the "Guaguancó de Salon" category:

Because of how the vocals begin. Those vocal refrains are what one hears in traditional Guaguancó.

I think we all make the error of neatly categorizing a song undividually and create limits around them. ie. This is a Son Montuno. This is a Mambo, etc. Nothing more than that. When the reality is most modern Son after 1940 is replete with multiple combinations of subgenres simultaneously being employed within the same arrangement. That's the reason record companies have always pushed the singular term catch all label to identify (and promote) the music. "Afro-Cuban," "Rhumba," "Mambo," "Salsa." In a commercial world you will confound a consumer by promoting their music as whatever or whichever subgenres are used. How do you sell TP's "Guaguancó Arsenio?" It's a Guaguanco de Salon, Son Montuno, Mambo-Descarga (a Guasamoma Jam?). In a commercial market you gotta package that in a way that will attract. Usually under a banner that an audience would feel comfortable with yelling during a live music presentation. Short and to the point. Every music genre has this one-word or straight to the point marker that hints at what you're in for.
 
1derpalm said:
Hypothetically, if I take our mi Guaguancó and play an acoustic cover, singing it with the fake deep sincerity of, say, Jack Johnson, and kept the same melody and structure but sang it like a white dude at open mic,.would that still be Guaguancó (according to many sites, salsa covers of Guaguancó are still.guaguancó..)?
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You need to do this and upload the vid for me to be able to answer that.
 
bort said:
That search also led me to Celia Cruz' 1966 album Son Con Guaguancó, which features two guaguancó de salon (Son Con Guaguancó and Tremendo Guaguancó), labeled just "Guaguanco" on the sleeve.
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If I recall correctly, that album was with TP and his orchestra. Unfortunately La Reína never hit the big time with him, but of course she found a lot of success a few years later when she teamed up with Pacheco. Incidentally when I was DJing I loved playing Tremendo guaguancó. Even casino dancers used to throw down to it.
 
Richie Blondet said:
No. It would just be a **** rendition.

Whichever sites are indicating that Salsa Guaguancós are still folkloric Guaguancó-Rumbas are the offspring of Crack addicts preyed upon by Reagan-era C.I.A. agents.
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I was being facetious. When people say "it's a guguancó because it's a cover of a guaguancó", that is where I go. I've softened my viewpoint by a fraction, but to me if it has nary an element of actual rumba, it isn't a Guaguancó (a sing just saying "dance to my Guaguancó" or sone sh!+ Like that for example).
 
 
Guaguancó de Salon was coined by Cubans.

Just as it was (White/Euro) Cubans pre-1920 who initially began to identify non-folkloric dancing to Cuban music as 'Rumba'.
 
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