guaguanco?

Yeah I'm also curious about this -- where did the cáscara rhythm come from (is it originally rumba guaguancó?), how did it spread between genres, and then related to that similar questions for timbales. How strongly does presence/absence of timbales go along with presence/absence of cáscara in son-related genres? As far as I understand sextetos/septetos wouldn't have featured timbales, not sure about conjuntos; but timbales were definitely around, e.g. used by charangas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charanga_(Cuba)#/media/File:Romeu_Orq.jpg.
 
I suspect it appeared in rumba guaguancó before the timbales players started to use it. Some online digging may confirm that. How did it spread between genres? It went from rumba to son, and the only other genres that also use it are son-based i.e. salsa and Latin jazz. Timba too I imagine (although I don't actually know).

I know cáscara can also be played on güiro, bongos and handheld bell. Probably on other percussion instruments too, however I don't think it's essential that one of those instruments play it if there is no timbales player. In fact on handheld bell it's used a lot in Latin jazz, where the timbales player is usually also present.
 
I don't think we agree on what mambo means. In Cuba it's a different dance, in NY it's what people call salsa on 2, and in Sweden it's a guy over 25 yrs old who still lives with his mother :).

In NY, Mambo has generational distinctions.

There's my dad's generation who were in their teensteens and early 20s circa the 1950s that, if still alive, are dancing or approaching the music as they did 70+ years ago. Either through dance instruction or via osmosis. Then there's the Eddie Torres generation. The post-'80s to the present, who religiously and exclusively employ the dance studio technique developed by Eddie Torres, Sr. It's the latter who define "Mambo" as Salsa On2 and dance to Mambo the exact same way, each and every time. Partnerwork throughout the entire dance with repetitive cross body leads. That's not how the old school danced to Mambo 75 years ago. That would include that era's dance studio crowd who, by and large, emulated the non-studio honed dancers who did not employ any established technique, and went back to the studio to systemize it and offer instruction. Which is exactly what Eddie Torres Sr. did upon he establishing a dance instruction operation.

I've also heard of mambo as a segment in a salsa song, but doesn't that derive from the dance? many songs call 'mambo!', and then you can dance a short part of mambo to it.

It's as a result OF dance culture, but not necessarily to engage in "Mambo" dance action or deployment of moves. As a musical section the term "Mambo" is also found in Merengue and even in some Mexican music. It is traditionally a call for the horn or wind section to begin playing a repetitive pattern of notes. You hear it in Perez Prado or Benny More music. You hear it in modern day "Salsa." You hear it in some Mexican corridos. In Merengues by Oro Solido, Ramon Orlando, Kinito Mendez, Wilfrido Vargas, etc. All of it is a product of pianist/composer Orestes Lopez having established a section in the Danzon that picked up the pace and became more progressive within an area of a chart. The signal was he shouting "Mambo." Everyone has followed suit since then. Only now the conceptual "section," aka the "Mambo," became the entire song structure itself. And the horns were implemented and conducted in a way (thanks to both Arsenio Rodriguez AND *especially* Luis Griñan "Lili" Martinez) that the repetitive musical notes the horns would play became the standard design or approach for all "Mambos" within any genre.

If someone calls out "Mambo!" in Merengue, that's intended for the horn section in the band to begin playing repetitive notes over the uptempo rhythm being played, sans vocals/choral refrain. Not for the dancer to stop dancing Merengue and go into exhibiting dance steps or motion associated with Mambo as a musical form.

Mambo is a conceptual device employed in uptempo Afro Cuban dance music, adopted by other musical cultures. It is also the name that was applied to the way people danced to Guaracha and Son Montuno in the 1930s and 1940s. In the same role "Salsa" is used today.

Anyway, a guaganco is the slowest form of rumba. The difference with mambo and rumba is that they have different claves. Not more complicated than that.

Yambu would be the slowest, with Columbia being the fastest. Guaguancó is smack in the middle.

The African clave rhythm is what Mambo and Rumba are founded upon. But, as you alluded, one form (Rumba) has a pause or is mute prior to the 3rd pulse on the 3-side emanating immediately thereafter seguing to the 2-bar pattern on the 2-side. No matter which side a Rumba begins on. In Mambo-Son there is no pause or mute on the 3rd pulse. The 3-side of the clave is played straight forward until reaching the 2-side.

3-2 Rumba: X-X--X -- XX
3-2 Son/Mambo: X-X-X -- XX

And vice versa when starting on the 2-side.
 
I was wondering whether rather than that characteristic guaguancó conga pattern, the "salsa guaguancó" might rather be defined by the cáscara, which is itself the guaguancó's catá/guagua/palito pattern. The rhythm seems prominent in some of those salsa guaguancós, and not just in the timbales. E.g. in Sabroso Guaguancó by Lisandro Meza, the vocals and various instrumental parts mirror the pattern, and the lyrics contrasting guaguancó with mozambique fits nicely.


Another recording that seems to support this theory: Mambo Guaguancó by René Touzet

 
I have heard people sing what i recognize as guaguancó with zero percussion, so I often think that lyrical and melodic structure has much to do with it.
 
(Ran across yet another thread of guaguancó discussion while trying to learn about casino arm movement... replying here)

No idea but you could equally ask the question about a Cuban son that mentions guaguancó, for example:


But if it is s on rhythm then there must be distinguishing characteristics that separate the rhythm of son guaguancó. That's what I want to know. No one has ever specified what distinguishes a son guaguancó from other types of son. So maybe I haven't asked the right people. Can you point out what it is? Then I can learn to recognize them.

I think there *are* some characteristics of these guaguancós -- not sure it's enough to define them, but:
  • a focus on the off-beats, particularly the off-beat before the down-beat, and particularly on the three-side of the clave
  • the rhythmic cell .xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx (the . is a pause on the downbeat)
The second thing in particular shows up in different ways:
  • In the tres/piano montuno/tumbao, e.g. Arsenio Rodriguez "Pueblo Nuevo Se Pasó"
    or "Oiga Mi Guaguancó"
  • Explicitly in the horns, e.g. that motive at 15s (repeated later) in "La Esencia del Guaguancó"
  • In the percussion, most clearly the mambo bell, particularly on 3& 4 4&, e.g. in "Lo Que Dice Justi" (Wayne Gorbea's version here) from 1:35
  • As the "caminao" (along the lines of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI7c4sQJPNI): For classical son, it feels right to clap along xxX.xxX.xxX... with the X on the downbeat (i.e. xx 8 8& leading up to X 1); that X has an accent but is rather long not sharp if I'm making sense. Now take that and shift it back in time by half a beat, so that your X hits the 8& 2& 4&
For the first thing I'm less sure how guaguancó-specific it is, but it does seem a common trait of the guaguancós. E.g. is the tumbao of Lo Que Dice Justi already guaguancó by itself? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPTHziz8OoQ. Maybe it would be good to contrast with some salsa songs that are decidedly *not* guaguancó since it does seem quite pervasive.

I'm also not sure if there's a convincing way to align any of this with the rumba guaguancó. There's *some* connection between that ".xxx" pattern in terms of what beats are used by the congas, e.g. check the "conga pattern for two drums" in rumba guaguancó here https://rhythmnotes.net/salsa-rhythms/. But I don't *feel* that pattern at all when listening to rumba.

(Btw, how to share youtube links without the big preview?)
 
(Ran across yet another thread of guaguancó discussion while trying to learn about casino arm movement... replying here)





I think there *are* some characteristics of these guaguancós -- not sure it's enough to define them, but:
  • a focus on the off-beats, particularly the off-beat before the down-beat, and particularly on the three-side of the clave
  • the rhythmic cell .xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx (the . is a pause on the downbeat)
The second thing in particular shows up in different ways:
  • In the tres/piano montuno/tumbao, e.g. Arsenio Rodriguez "Pueblo Nuevo Se Pasó"
    or "Oiga Mi Guaguancó"
  • Explicitly in the horns, e.g. that motive at 15s (repeated later) in "La Esencia del Guaguancó"
  • In the percussion, most clearly the mambo bell, particularly on 3& 4 4&, e.g. in "Lo Que Dice Justi" (Wayne Gorbea's version here) from 1:35
  • As the "caminao" (along the lines of this video
    ): For classical son, it feels right to clap along xxX.xxX.xxX... with the X on the downbeat (i.e. xx 8 8& leading up to X 1); that X has an accent but is rather long not sharp if I'm making sense. Now take that and shift it back in time by half a beat, so that your X hits the 8& 2& 4&
For the first thing I'm less sure how guaguancó-specific it is, but it does seem a common trait of the guaguancós. E.g. is the tumbao of Lo Que Dice Justi already guaguancó by itself? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPTHziz8OoQ. Maybe it would be good to contrast with some salsa songs that are decidedly *not* guaguancó since it does seem quite pervasive.

I'm also not sure if there's a convincing way to align any of this with the rumba guaguancó. There's *some* connection between that ".xxx" pattern in terms of what beats are used by the congas, e.g. check the "conga pattern for two drums" in rumba guaguancó here https://rhythmnotes.net/salsa-rhythms/. But I don't *feel* that pattern at all when listening to rumba.

(Btw, how to share youtube links without the big preview?)

Funnily enough I was listening to El guaguancó de El Gran Combo recently and admitted to myself that without the lyrical reference I wouldn't have known what rhythm it was. I will study the above thoroughly.
 
Funnily enough I was listening to El guaguancó de El Gran Combo recently and admitted to myself that without the lyrical reference I wouldn't have known what rhythm it was. I will study the above thoroughly.

This one?
Good song, I didn't know it. To me it matches my current guaguancó pattern.

I like the citation of the Godfather theme. (From 1972, while this song was released in 1973.)
 
That's the one. Maybe my favourite track from their very extensive repertoire. (Although I never noticed the Godfather Theme reference.)
 
this is a great thread. When I was taking classes a while back with a teacher who had been on the east coast scene (DC/NYC) since the late 90s, he would talk to us about a subgenre of salsa and he referred to it as "NY Guaguanco". I don't think that's an official moniker but he used it to describe certain kinds of songs. The best examples I can find in my current library were these:






These 5 have the same kind of piano melody intro and are a bit slower on the bpm side and clearly follow a similar music structure/pattern.

Here are some others that can fit into that genre as well but don't have that typical piano solo intro you see in the first 5 but instead, it's layered in with other instruments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptCpcAoAR9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2imK34LOo

Here are a few others with guaguanco in the title that happen to be some of my favs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV871OHAtNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFydSSdpAf4

If this truly is a music style, I wouldn't know how to put it into words but there are clearly some songs out there that follow a certain style. It also happens to be a favorite style of salsa song.
 
this is a great thread. When I was taking classes a while back with a teacher who had been on the east coast scene (DC/NYC) since the late 90s, he would talk to us about a subgenre of salsa and he referred to it as "NY Guaguanco". I don't think that's an official moniker but he used it to describe certain kinds of songs. The best examples I can find in my current library were these:

Thanks for these! Noting down the titles in case the videos get taken down

Hector Riviera - Guaguancó Pa Los Pollos
Los Salvajes del Ritmo - Saint John's Guaguancó
Damiron - Moderno Guaguancó
Luis Felipe Gonzalez - Llegó Superman
Onda Panamerican - Guaguancó De Los Violentos

El Combo Moderno - Guaguancó De Los Indios
El Combo Moderno - Escucha Mi Guaguancó

Charlie Palmieri - Guaguancó En Borinquen
Kako y Azuquita - Guaguancó Soberano

The only one in there that doesn't quite hit my guaguancó "feel" is Llegó Superman -- the piano pattern does match, but it feels a bit too straight rhythmically to me, particularly the chorus with the heavy 1 3 5 7.
 
Regarding that guaguancó feel, there's some kind of overlap with what I was trying to get at over at https://www.salsaforums.com/threads/whats-that-swing.42396/.

Pa' Bravo Yo is definitely not as clear-cut guaguancó as what we've listed here, but has some features that make me want to call it one, particularly in the montuno section. Pregones de San Cristobál has the strong 5-syncopated-to-4& but not much else, I think that one doesn't really match. Como Esta Miguel by Septeto Habanero from the 1920s was clearly earlier than Arsenio's Son Guaguancó, but it does have pretty much that same pattern as Oiga Mi Guaguancó in the tres(?).
 
Some more instances (maybe?)

Justo Betancourt - Guaguancó Ta Moderno
From the same album as Pa' Bravo Yo, also fits the bill but not that much more clearly guaguancó to me besides the title.

Larry Harlow - Buenavista Guaguancó
This one seems a very clear instance, including some of the lyrical guaguancó features discussed earlier.

Wayne Gorbea - Estamos En Salsa
A fast one, I'd call it a guaguancó even if it's just talking about salsa.
 
Some more instances (maybe?)

Justo Betancourt - Guaguancó Ta Moderno
From the same album as Pa' Bravo Yo, also fits the bill but not that much more clearly guaguancó to me besides the title.

Larry Harlow - Buenavista Guaguancó
This one seems a very clear instance, including some of the lyrical guaguancó features discussed earlier.

Wayne Gorbea - Estamos En Salsa
A fast one, I'd call it a guaguancó even if it's just talking about salsa.

Great stuff - I see it in the first two, especially the Harlow one.

As for the last one, I think Lo que Dice Justi is more representative of a guaguanco style we are describing:


So, given all this, I think we're relatively aligned on identifying this kind of sub-genre. Question is - how would you describe it to someone (especially one that does not have a strong musical background)?
 
this is a great thread. When I was taking classes a while back with a teacher who had been on the east coast scene (DC/NYC) since the late 90s, he would talk to us about a subgenre of salsa and he referred to it as "NY Guaguanco". I don't think that's an official moniker but he used it to describe certain kinds of songs. The best examples I can find in my current library were these:






These 5 have the same kind of piano melody intro and are a bit slower on the bpm side and clearly follow a similar music structure/pattern.

Here are some others that can fit into that genre as well but don't have that typical piano solo intro you see in the first 5 but instead, it's layered in with other instruments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptCpcAoAR9A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS2imK34LOo

Here are a few others with guaguanco in the title that happen to be some of my favs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV871OHAtNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFydSSdpAf4

If this truly is a music style, I wouldn't know how to put it into words but there are clearly some songs out there that follow a certain style. It also happens to be a favorite style of salsa song.

Note that 2 of those tracks are S American covers of NY tracks, both are far less well-known than the originals and both are similar to the originals: St John's guaguancó originally by Vladimir, Guaguancó de los violentos originally by Típica 73.

Meanwhile Llegó superman is actually a S American cover of a NY Cuban rumba song by Patato y Totico, however I think the Willie Rosario version came earlier than the above version by Don Filemón. The Rosario and Filemón versions are not v similar as I recall.

Also note that I have been meaning for some time to list 2 of those tracks in the thread Calling the Clave Police! Anyone guess which 2 and why?

Also note that 1 of these tracks features in a thread I started when the pandemic first hit: https://www.salsaforums.com/threads/guess-the-song.40366/
 
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So, given all this, I think we're relatively aligned on identifying this kind of sub-genre. Question is - how would you describe it to someone (especially one that does not have a strong musical background)?

Personally I'm still not understanding some of the characteristics described in previous posts. Probably my poor comprehension and concentration skills to be fair, but if you can describe it in simpler terms I might get it.
 
Personally I'm still not understanding some of the characteristics described in previous posts. Probably my poor comprehension and concentration skills to be fair, but if you can describe it in simpler terms I might get it.

I'm still trying to distill this myself, it's very likely that my characterizations if even "correct" are very much lacking in clarity...

Here's another way I think about the "feel" aspect, apologies if I'm going off the rails... We've got our core rhythm with its sequence of

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 &
up off down off up off down off up off down off up off down off


continuous cycles up-off-down-off-up-off-down-.... On the straight end of the spectrum, I think of this as a vertical line with up-beat at the top and down-beat at the bottom. On the round end it's a circle. (I guess we could keep going into a horizontal line...)

For me this translates directly to moving to the music, e.g. sitting on a chair listening to music I might bounce up and down on the straight end, or turn that movement into more of a circle.

Now with salsa music, there's little that feels entirely "straight", but there's quite a lot where plain up-down movement fits, and maybe at best I'd prefer to round it out a little bit (think a narrow oval). While the guaguancós sit very much on the round side. It feels almost like the downbeat is spread across the whole off-down-off part of the circle.

To illustrate this with examples, sticking with El Gran Combo I'd put e.g. Yo No Hago Mas Na towards the straight side (thought it certainly has a bit of swing), Un Verano En Nueva York somewhere in the middle (intro and verse are roundish, the montuno is very straight, but then that bit from with the solo from 3:10 is very round), and Guaguancó Del Gran Combo entirely on the round end.

(There's probably more straight examples outside El Gran Combo, for example El Dia De Mi Suerte.)

I'm very curious whether this fits for any of you, even regardless of whether this is a guaguancó property. (With guarachas on the straighter side?)
 
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 &
up off down off up off down off up off down off up off down off

I hope you see how I was trying to format this...

As an aside to take us further into the weeds: There's this nested structure to it, where a bar of four beats 1234 decomposes into two halves of these up-off-down-off cycles. Like how a cha-cha-cha step nests a "quick-quick-slow" into the "slow" of a top-level "quick-quick-slow" basic. Now in some way I see the guaguancó core cell (this .xxx.xxx thing I mentioned above) as a double time version of the son basic, where you step 234 678 with an accent on the 4 and 8, anticipating the 5 and 1 respectively. I think the same thing is happening here on a nested level, with the 2&, 4&, 6& anticipating the 3, 5, 7 (in 2-3 clave).

Another random thought is that this 4& anticipating the 5 is a rumba guaguancó feature in its clave.
 
To prove I've lost it completely... I just came across this one in another thread and think it fits here in some ways

Alexander Abreu - Después de un beso
 
Note that 2 of those tracks are S American covers of NY tracks, both are far less well-known than the originals and both are similar to the originals: St John's guaguancó originally by Vladimir, Guaguancó de los violentos originally by Típica 73.

Meanwhile Llegó superman is actually a S American cover of a NY Cuban rumba song by Patato y Totico, however I think the Willie Rosario version came earlier than the above version by Don Filemón. The Rosario and Filemón versions are not v similar as I recall.

Also note that I have been meaning for some time to list 2 of those tracks in the thread Calling the Clave Police! Anyone guess which 2 and why?

Also note that 1 of these tracks features in a thread I started when the pandemic first hit: https://www.salsaforums.com/threads/guess-the-song.40366/

Thanks for that info! Weird how when I look back at the youtube links, a couple of them are now referencing different songs. Wild.

As for Guaguanco de los Violentos, as per online research, Onda Panamericana produced it in 72 and Tipica 73 in 76. You're right on St. Johns, I just couldn't remember the Vladimir's name. FWIW, that Vladimir album is hot - Chonga is another great number.
 
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