Frankie Martinez Now $250 an hour

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I think all the different perspectives are absolutely great!! It's a joy to read and watch interact on the dance floor... which, brings me to a conversation that I had a while back. This person asked me what I thought of the scene. I said, well besides the mess that is going on with people simply doing because they can, having no idea about the music, yet love because they love, and enjoy because they enjoy regardless of, I love it and it’s great! It is a world of its own that no matter what, thrives on peoples impurities and creates purity!

The person then said, “that is why I love it, none of these dancers have any idea of what is technically wrong with them, or how to really move, yet they still go out and absolutely have a great time, creating a culture that is unparalleled, and keeps me coming back for more regardless of how bad people dance!” (This person is likely the most technically efficient and on of the best young dancer in NY City).

Well, the conversation then found its way to Frankie. Which pretty much ended with the person saying, “that guy has such amazing talent, but he has no idea how to take what he has and correct it, propelling him to true greatness”. The talent pours out if Mr. Martinez! Every time I watch him dance, he amazes me that with so little knowledge he can be so creative. If he took some classes and learned the things he obviously lacks, he’d be the meanest dancer ever.

I think is great when such difference in knowledge and culture get together and create one strong and self sufficient world for everyone to enjoy!

I have friends who have left his classes furious because of his inability to teach, yet I also have friends who swear by his methods. Simply beautiful!

You have it to spend it, even if you don’t but you want to, live your life!
 
borikenSalsero said:
Well, the conversation then found its way to Frankie. Which pretty much ended with the person saying, “that guy has such amazing talent, but he has no idea how to take what he has and correct it, propelling him to true greatness”. The talent pours out if Mr. Martinez! Every time I watch him dance, he amazes me that with so little knowledge he can be so creative. If he took some classes and learned the things he obviously lacks, he’d be the meanest dancer ever.
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what is it exactly that hes lacking boriken? your opinion or the person you were talking to, or both!! :D Sometimes its easy to get so blinded by your favourite dancer that you cant see them doing anything wrong (or if you do you push it to the side in denial that they could ever do anything wrong :lol: )

Hope im not comoing across as defensive, just curious.....
 
salseralaura said:
borikenSalsero said:
Well, the conversation then found its way to Frankie. Which pretty much ended with the person saying, “that guy has such amazing talent, but he has no idea how to take what he has and correct it, propelling him to true greatness”. The talent pours out if Mr. Martinez! Every time I watch him dance, he amazes me that with so little knowledge he can be so creative. If he took some classes and learned the things he obviously lacks, he’d be the meanest dancer ever.
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what is it exactly that hes lacking boriken? your opinion or the person you were talking to, or both!! :D Sometimes its easy to get so blinded by your favourite dancer that you cant see them doing anything wrong (or if you do you push it to the side in denial that they could ever do anything wrong :lol: )

Hope im not comoing across as defensive, just curious.....
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Not at all. Some stuff is technical, others philosophical. Not that I have them either. :? , but is always nice to share opinions.

He has great body control, because of such a control and need to display it; he has difficulty applying the core when engaged in partner work. Although he has excellent body control, he dances mostly hands and feet. (Ala Eddie Torres) Hence, the core must take a back-seat, sporadically applied when he wishes. Because of feet and arms excess movement they take control of both his upper and lower body, jerking him around, forcing the core to fight for control.

When the exact same moves are done by the kinds of Afro-Cuban old-schoolers (Ala, Puppi and Nydia Ocasio), there is a distinct difference in the result. Even when both those dancers seem out of control, their bodies will always be prepared for the next step. They look as if they were going to break, fall over, and then, bang, we’ve missed how prepared their bodies were to complete the current move and start the next.

Frankie finishes a step unprepared for the next, which he then has to fight and spend energy, as well as spend time readying his body, therefore, creating a conflict. The mind and energy tells the body to head in one direction, yet the rest of the body has to reset itself to natural position and get moving again, creating energy moving in different directions. That means that his feet, core, torso and arms aren’t in optimal position in regards to unison movement. Some has to do with the basic foundation he uses to dance, rather than his fault. As far as I know, he might know or not know some of it, as likely he may really not care to apply as he already has his own style, and is ultimately up to him in how he wants to dance.

There is a lot of conflicting energy to his movement. Kind of like swatting a swarm of fruit flies, the air forces the flies in one direction while they struggle to fly in different directions in a fight to join as one swarm again. (Note the difference between conflicting and wasting energy)

The others have to do with balance in relation to partner, control of his body based on action and reaction with the follower, lack of energy sharing, blocking of his energy and followers’, and all the technical details that dancing NY City on2 hinders.

There are a number of things that he still needs to polish. Admittedly, I have three of four thousand more of those things that I need to even learn. I’ve never been a big fan of his approach. I think he can dance his booty off, extremely gifted dancer! I just particularly enjoy his style.

He is a perfectionist, but he is very proud, hopefully that won’t stop him from looking for aid to clean his short comings.
 
borikenSalsero said:
He has great body control, because of such a control and need to display it; he has difficulty applying the core when engaged in partner work. Although he has excellent body control, he dances mostly hands and feet. (Ala Eddie Torres) Hence, the core must take a back-seat, sporadically applied when he wishes. Because of feet and arms excess movement they take control of both his upper and lower body, jerking him around, forcing the core to fight for control.
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Boriken, I don't want to seem rude, but I can only say one thing: You just have no idea of what you're talking about. I invite you to come to thursday's class, and you'll see where the core and foundation are, in relation to the rest of the body (feet, hands)


borikenSalsero said:
Frankie finishes a step unprepared for the next, which he then has to fight and spend energy
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Again, I don't know where you get that idea. It's hard to just understand what Frankie is doing when you see him dancing, cause it's so complex, you don't even realize what's going on. But I have another invitation for you: come to Tuesday's class and you'll understand how all the steps flow without effort.
 
NYguero said:
borikenSalsero said:
He has great body control, because of such a control and need to display it; he has difficulty applying the core when engaged in partner work. Although he has excellent body control, he dances mostly hands and feet. (Ala Eddie Torres) Hence, the core must take a back-seat, sporadically applied when he wishes. Because of feet and arms excess movement they take control of both his upper and lower body, jerking him around, forcing the core to fight for control.
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Boriken, I don't want to seem rude, but I can only say one thing: You just have no idea of what you're talking about. I invite you to come to thursday's class, and you'll see where the core and foundation are, in relation to the rest of the body (feet, hands)


borikenSalsero said:
Frankie finishes a step unprepared for the next, which he then has to fight and spend energy
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Again, I don't know where you get that idea. It's hard to just understand what Frankie is doing when you see him dancing, cause it's so complex, you don't even realize what's going on. But I have another invitation for you: come to Tuesday's class and you'll understand how all the steps flow without effort.
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It is only complex to understand what is going on when the person himself doesn't have the skills to understand what is going on. Core dancing isn't a mystery. Anyone teaching about the core will say exactly the same. Bodies all behave the same, practice makes complex seem, well, what it is, natural.

I can't take away that his speech is all about the core, because he is! But when dancing, there is still a lot of conflicting motion. Whether he teaches it or not, whether he lives by or not, he is causing conflict with his body, in partner work is more evident. When you learn more, not only of the core, but body cause and effect, you too will be able to tell him how to move more efficiently. He isn’t dancing God, he still lacks a lot of technique, although much less than me. All I point out is not his knowledge of the topic, but how in application he is more conflicting than we all think, he might know it himself, just doesn’t care to change as it is his style. So, good for him!

There isn't one thing that Frankie can show me about core movement. Sadly, not one, otherwise, I’d be in his class with you on Thursdays. That he does it better than I only means that he has more practice. However, he can in fact, correct when I do something wrong. Just like I can correct him when his energy conflicts, and the core fights the limbs.

I think you, me and he should get together, bring someone with a greater magnitude than all of us will ever have, and breakdown his dancing. I guarantee you that the person won't say anything different or new about the core or body motion than he knows, yet the person will point out what is going wrong and why. Teaching us that even Frankie has lots to look forward to… But looking from the bottom up he can do no wrong.

Believe it or not, I am not the only person in NY City that says the exact same thing about his dancing. It is only the untrained eye that sanctifies him. Those that are up-there wonder why he hasn’t gone for more technically advanced classes, to aid him drag that raw talent up a notch.

Today, I don’t know what I’m taking about. I give you that because you don’t know the extent of my knowledge to dissect body movement. But there will come a time when you will figure out that knowledge and applied knowledge can contradict one another.

On Thursday, ask him why the wind up of the arm, to spin a girl, is such a no-no in regards to unison or core movement. He’ll tell you why, then you’ll notice a bit more as to why I say what I say, even if I am much less technically sound a dancer than he. For I too have the exact same knowledge he has and you seek from him.
 
Just watched "Frankies Mambo".
:shock:

Cant see nothing wrong with his core.

Doesnt mean I wanna fork out $250 US though. Maybe if I was Donald
Trump.

Also doesnt it have a domino effect if his prices are high. Whats to
stop another high profile teacher from thinking Im just as good as
Frankie I should put my prices up 2!
 
borikenSalsero said:
..... Whether he teaches it or not, whether he lives by or not, he is causing conflict with his body, in partner work is more evident. When you learn more, not only of the core, but body cause and effect, you too will be able to tell him how to move more efficiently....
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Don't get me wrong, Frankie is one of the best dancers out there. He is quite talented and innovative BUT as Boriken alluded to and I also agree, his partnerwork needs "work". It seems as though he dancing "outside" the person and still "within" himself. Perfect example: Ever seen him dance with Nancy Ortiz? It's almost like he doesn't know what to do with her. Her body movement and his are totally different. She moves with her core and Frankie moreso with his legs and arms as Boriken mentioned above. I think we all agree that the man has great talent, just some things are lacking and in his case, I think his partnerwork suffers quite a bit due to his movements being more sharp and "mechanical" than fluid. The sharp and mechancal works great for shines. Oh my goodness, Frankie and Juan Matos are awesome at them! I can watch and cheer them on all day. :banana: Wouldn't want to dance with them though. 8)
 
I unfortunately have to agree somewhat with Boriken on this :( Frankie's footwork is better than his partnerwork but he is phenominally talented. That said his partnerwork is still as good as if not better than some "names" who's footwork is not as good as Frankie's.

peachexploration said:
The sharp and mechancal works great for shines. Oh my goodness, Frankie and Juan Matos are awesome at them! I can watch and cheer them on all day. :banana: Wouldn't want to dance with them though. 8)
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I'm not so sure with Juan Matos because sometimes he doesnt look interested in who hes dancing with, but having danced quite a few times with Frankie he is definitely worth a dance. Although you can sometimes see the conflict in his movement I've never felt it in his lead, he is so gentle compared to some other "names", hes great fun to do shines with and he gives you 100% of his attention when hes dancing with you!!

Oh well i guess no matter what is said and what he lacks hes still my hero... :lol:
 
Borinken, I usually like the stuff you write, but I still don't agree with you on this one.... Untrained eye? let's just say I've danced for long enough to have enough of a good eye.

As for Frankie's partner work, his philosopy is quite different from everyone else's (like almost everything with him). Most leaders will "guide" the lady through predictable patterns. Frankie's obsession is into "tricking and surprising". Good or bad? it's certainly different...

As for suggesting Frankie should take advanced classes, He was Eddie Torres principle dancer for 4 years and was with him for many more. There's the advanced classes.

I'm not here to defend Frankie's style, I pay him to learn it, and he doesn't pay me to promote it. But what you wrote about core, juggling arms, not being prepared for the next step, that makes no sense. If you go to his class you'll understand where everything fits.
 
NYguero said:
...As for Frankie's partner work, his philosopy is quite different from everyone else's (like almost everything with him). Most leaders will "guide" the lady through predictable patterns. Frankie's obsession is into "tricking and surprising". Good or bad? it's certainly different....
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Yeah, that's probably it, Nyguero. Different philosophy from some of us (myself included) but that's what makes him Frankie. Talented and unique regardless. Not many can say that in the Salsa world. :)
 
hmm I think it's fair to these dancers (Frankie, Juan Matos) to make the distinction between "cannot" and "prefer not to" when talking about their partnering or solo abilities. Although I agree with some of the assessement of such "stars" (esp JM) not being as interested in their partners as they are in showing off shines, I think it's mostly an issue of whether or not they care about the partnership of the moment, in most cases, and not an issue of their actual ability to lead....
Just imagine dancing for a living, travelling and dancing with so many women/men, it gets boring really quick, you can't fake enthusiasm for very long (one big reason not to dance for a living hah) with exception of very exciting and highly skilled partners

For example the imambo clip of Frankie & Nancy: I definitely think he was honoring her stature as a skilled and captivating follower-dancer, rather than just trying to outshine her or lead her into everything, monopolizing the whole dance. It doesn't look at all like a case of "not knowing what to do with her". They were taking turns putting on a show together (well she stole the show :) ), but it looked like they both had great fun with it, as most of us did watching it.
In fact this is what I like the most about the NY dance culture, the woman is allowed to shine too, to take center stage instead just doing only moves choreographed by the lead...
I've heard those "he didn't know what to do you" comments so many times, when the whole time my partners looked like (and said) they had terrific fun 8)
And that's what it's all about, acquiring the partnering and solo skills to have the most fun right?
Some prefer to stick to one type of skill, others prefer diversity....

Anyway my original point: A lot of great dancers have been mentioned here, just note that how they chose to portray themselves on the social dance floor may not reflect their quality as teachers. So it's more practical to ask other people who have learned from them rather than spectators
 
africana said:
.... It doesn't look at all like a case of "not knowing what to do with her". .....
...I've heard those "he didn't know what to do you" comments so many times, when the whole time my partners looked like (and said) they had terrific fun 8).....
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Well, Africana. When "I form my own opinion", it is just that. My opinion. I am entitled to have it as you are yours. I have seen many clips of Mr. Martinez and "more than one" with Nancy Ortiz. Each time, I have made the same assessment. My opinion has also been formed from many years ago since I first started watching him. My opinion remains the same. His partnerwork needs "work" and not only with Nancy Ortiz but with almost every follow he dances with. His level or not. Again, this is my opinion. We may not agree and that's okay. That doesn't take away from his talent and the ability to dance his tookas off.....

africana said:
.......Anyway my original point: A lot of great dancers have been mentioned here, just note that how they chose to portray themselves on the social dance floor may not reflect their quality as teachers. So it's more practical to ask other people who have learned from them rather than spectators
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Or vice versa....
 
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