Focus on the music FIRST!!by Edie "The Salsa Freak&quot

[noobster]

My question was a general one and not directed specifically at you.

Oh, sorry. You quoted me so I thought I was being asked to provide evidence.

There are a lot of videos on sites like YouTube where you could possibly verify the magnitude of the things that Edie spoke about like guys continuing a turn pattern after the song is finished.

I mean, that has definitely happened to me, where if the music cuts out or the song ends suddenly the guy will just keep doing the pattern. I think it is more of a joke though, or sometimes a way of indicating he wants to dance through the next song with you. It's not really something that bothers me or that I would consider to 'lack musicality.'

Also I just wanted to re-emphasize that I don't see it as a huge general problem in nyc that the dancers lack musicality. There's a spectrum, as with everything else in human behavior, and there are lots of very nice and musical dancers around. I do think the dancing is a bit less varied here than it is in some other cities I've seen (the McStudio problem) but that's not really what Edie seemed to be talking about.

Anyway though, I don't think you can get an understanding of the general prevalence of a dance 'issue' from looking at videos online, simply because people who find themselves in front of iMambo cameras (or even people who are sufficiently obsessed with salsa to videotape themselves dancing and put the results up on YouTube) are likely to have spent much more time, effort, and money on their dancing than the average salser@.

 

[borikenSalsero]

The underlying problem is not the dancer, but , the " teacher ? "

The prevalent thought in nyc is that the blame falls on students because they want to dance like instructors. Here is where one would assume a knowledgeable instructor can begin to teach the student to become his her own person on the dance-floor, well beyond the words of "you gotta make it yours". But instead we get a 1,2,3 - 5,6,7, a couple of McPatterns and McShines and a new dancer is born courtesy of McInstructor and his McStudio. Had we not possess physical differences, you'd think it is the same person with the ability to be in different places at the same time.

So, here I am, I'm here to be you, but on the dancefloor, better known as dancing like you!

Since you are "the teacher" and the word by itself stands for well-informed in the topic, you are going to allow me to go ahead an become mini-instructor. Yeap, blame the student from not having the knowledge from which to draw and make an informed decision, even question the instructor's knowledge. But hey, supply and demand, people just want to have fun, let them keep feeding on McStudios, everything has its place. Well, until the lack of nutrition kills the very object we love.

I find it intriguing that instructor do not touch upon their dance ethos absorbed by students and how it can hinder the ability of a student to become more than turns and patterns.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

I tend to take my cues re musical interpretation from my partner: if he is more ballroomy vs more street vs more energetic vs more reserved, whatever it is my movements usually move more in that direction too. And if he is churning me through patterns without a lot of attention to the music, I tend to cooperate with that as well, toning down the musicality (though not losing it completely).

More mature leads often modify their style to compliment the woman, and if done correctly they feed off each other like a conversation... You get more energetic, so do I and we feed off each other. If we are both paying attention what you do should influence my choices and movements.

On the other hand, I very rarely see a guy pick up any cues from *me*. Doubtless that's mostly because they've got lots of other things to think about, but I bet it is also because they are used to being the 'talkers' in the conversation. They are often 'listening' to the extent that they are trying to make sure I am having a good time, which is wonderful and I'm very happy about that - but they are not usually listening to what I think about the music.

That would take a pretty mature lead to pull that off. For example, I may instantly recognize you have a cuban influence. I know what that looks like, but I don't currently have the motion vocabulary (control) to pull that off and integrate it into my dancing (yet). I dance with one follow who has a hip-hop background. I see her doing body/arm waves that would be perfect for me to reflect back to her at points, but I don't have enough control to make that happen at this point (I'm working on it...)

On the other hand, if I see you have a strong movement vocabulary, I may put you in more positions or patterns where I know you'll have the time to show off your vocabulary. In other words, while I may not be able to reflect your current style, I may give more room for your expression to show through.

Mature leads modify their pattern selection based on their follow.

I've seen myself on video with six or seven different partners over time and I look like a different dancer with each one. Leaders don't change their look much with different followers - and I'm not talking about their pattern vocabulary, I'm talking about their movement vocabulary.

That makes sense to me, followers from the start tend to invest more time in their movement vocabulary while the guys are focused on their pattern vocabulary in the beginning. (A generalization.) Most guys build out from their patterns, while most ladies build from their style. (That doesn't fit everybody!)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that musicality *could* be a two-way conversation - unlike patterns, which are a one-way conversation where he talks and I listen - but it very, very rarely turns out that way in practice. I think that could be different, but it would require the leader not only to slow down on the patterns (and there are lots of very attentive and musical leaders around here, I would not say that pattern-monkeys are in any way a majority) but actually to pay attention to the woman's interpretation of the music and try to incorporate it into what he's doing. That second bit is much rarer and, I would guess, much harder for someone who is not used to being the listener in the conversation.

You are correct, the dance should be a conversation. Note that just because I understand the concepts intellectually, as a lead I may not have the ability to react in real time and modify my dance to hold up my end of the conversation.

Sometimes I hear things in the music and/or see my partner and I can't respond fast enough or maybe I don't have the body control required to express what I'm feeling in response to your movements.

I can sit here on the board and I recognize the concepts (salsa dance closely parellels many jazz concepts) but that doesn't mean I have the physical skills to execute the right feel for my partner and the music.

Well. I don't consider the patterns to be the main component of the musicality. IMHO you can have a really beautiful, musical dance with just three patterns. <snip>

We are on the same page here... except the same pattern can be executed with many different feels. Most women can say the words "I hate you" (or "I love you") with a tone that can be whispered in a sexy tone or screaming and in the "I'll rip your head off" tone. Same words, a wide range of feelings.

My point is that if he had been listening to what I thought about the song he wouldn't have given me that spin in the first place.

Absolutely yes! I agree that the selection of moves/patterns should be appropriate for the woman and the song, and fit the conversation.

So yes, the leader usually 'sets the tone for the dance.' But that's a contingent fact, not a theoretical constraint. It doesn't have to be that way. Musicality can be a two-way street, but both dancers have to be listening.

In an ideal world, it should be a conversation with the music providing the context. Most of the time the lead sets the tone, although I totally agree with you that the dance should be a conversation. It may not be today if I don't have the overall vocabulary to express my feelings, but over time it is moving in that direction.

 

[salcero2005]

There are numerous people teaching, who 5 mins ago were were taking lessons , and the people that taught them , in many cases , were taking five minutes before them !. Have seen it many major cities.

I happened to see Magna's spins video. In it, I think she said that she took 2 or 3 lessons and then was asked by the instructor to help him teach. :lol:

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

I'm a little iffy with the concept of learning structure to "anticipate" and "react". While I admit that knowledge is a must, not knowing how to use it is the issue that underlines its abundance.

I don't understand the statement above. Can you please restate that since I must be missing something

Thinking decreases the ability to feel. Feeling decreases thought process, which IMHO is necessary for motion to turn into a dance. Regardless of how “second nature” knowledge becomes! Only when a meditative state is reached can we really be feeling without thinking. Meditative states do not come about way of knowledge, only absence of thought.

Hmmm... I agree the best dances are when not directly thinking about it. But few can just get directly into a meditative state and be great dancers... Most people put plenty of work (and thought) into the process and graduate to a meditative state. Sort of like driving a car... you learn how to operate the controls and over the years it becomes automatic, with little direct thought. (Most of us eat in the car, talk on the phone and don't think about pushing the gas or break pedals anymore. We see something and we turn the wheel without thinking about how much our hands move...)

There is an assumption that hitting breaks or accents consummates dancing, even that it means musicality.

It's simply one aspect of musicality. Counting isn't musicality, great flavr isn't musicality, but they are all a part of it. (Not hitting the breaks can be musical, it depends on the situation...)

Teaching, overwhelmed with patterns and musical structure, utterly neglects feelings. I don't blame it, teaching to feel is rather difficult and a lacking attribute of the salsa scene today. How can someone who can’t feel, teach someone how to feel?

I'm not sure I agree... different paths for different people. If you are dancing solo anything works. Feel is critical to dancing excellence. But most people develop feel over time (some never do). Patterns and structure provide a framework for people to build on as they mature.

Build a nice dance, don’t worry about the message just concentrate on hitting breaks and accents, then you’ll have musicality and Sabor.

Feeling the music and dancing with Sabor is in everyone’s mouth, yet reason is taught as the pathway to conquest.

If anybody says "just hit the breaks and accents" I'd say that is as wrong as saying "do what you feel" and ignore all the breaks and accents. Hitting breaks, reflecting the accents and what the musicians are feeling is part of the musicality, but there are enough components that your concepts can make you a fantastic dancer, even though I need a different path to get there.

Most people need the structure to get enough experience to get to the other side. One size never fits all.

BTW - I have a musical feel that took me over 10 years to actually feel/hear after my teacher explained it to me when I was about 16. While I had an intellectual understanding of it I never felt it until many years later. (Today when I hear it, it's like a bright light, I can't miss that feel...)

The perspective of time and thousands of hours of playing/listening were required for me. Since I was aware, when the light bulb went off I immediately remembered him telling me the concept. Today when the music is right I have that feel in my toolkit and I don't think about it at all, I know the feel and it just comes out of my playing. Others may have felt the concept years earlier or may never understand it but rather just feel it naturally.

Since I also understand the concepts, I can change the feel depending on my mood and morph depending on the context of the music. So we are in agreement that feeling is critical and teaching it isn't something most do.

Your opinions are well thought out and while we don't agree on everything, I respect your point of view.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

The underlying problem is not the dancer, but , the " teacher ? "

<snip>
I find it intriguing that instructor do not touch upon their dance ethos absorbed by students and how it can hinder the ability of a student to become more than turns and patterns.

In group classes most students don't want theory, or feeling, or the instructor to talk too much. They want another pattern or a shine combination, hoping that will make them look good to someone they are interested in meeting. They don’t ask questions when they don’t get it and it’s clear they don’t care about the details in many cases.

There are a subset like you who get the bigger picture, but most are there to simply look good enough to dance with someone new tonight and be slightly better than average.

Social dancing for most people is about the social aspects; dance is simply a vehicle for meeting people, entertainment and some fitness. There is nothing wrong with that and those people are the ones who generally foot the bill at most clubs. Serious dancers don't drink much as a rule... and a club generally needs drinkers to keep the lights flashing and pay the band/DJ.

People taking privates are generally investing and they are open to a broader understanding. In those sessions, you can teach theory and work on feel.

A few of us nuts take it beyond that and have all sorts of theoretical discussions about feeling, musicality, timing, teaching, the real definition of dancing, and how life isn't fair to me! :lol:

 

[borikenSalsero]

I don't understand the statement above. Can you please restate that since I must be missing something?

An abundance of knowledge is presented to us, however very few know how to use it. Many can’t explain it because they themselves don’t fully grasp it, nor have the ability to tell when a student is ready to absorb the presented information. Information handed out is done at times where it truly means nothing and won’t help until much time elapses. A plain mistake as it can only create unanswerable questions. Questions that do not have a knowledgeable backing that can create a fruitful path until someone actually explains the missing information, or the person stumbles up it not from know how, but by “chance”.

Hmmm... I agree the best dances are when not directly thinking about it. But few can just get directly into a meditative state and be great dancers... Most people put plenty of work (and thought) into the process and graduate to a meditative state. Sort of like driving a car

Being “unconscious” of a process doesn’t imply a brain’s dormant state.
The process by which we achieve a meditative state during a dance increases due to western society’s blatant focus on the body. I’m not implying that the path is wrong, though I do suggest that it increases the time required to reach a meditative state, possibly prevent it.

The effect of such a philosophy is a person seeking to express feelings without addressing feelings, and a teacher teaching flesh to find emotions, hence the use of Sums, formulae, equations and an expenditure of years in an attempt to feel emotions already present and available to truly portray musicality. As a result, one works hard and long to figure out that one is finally blank in the head… But blank we are not because of all the accomplished work, rather one’s finally stopped forcing the brain to process information giving the self time to feel which enables the meditative state. Had we had a philosophical approach that address feelings we wouldn’t have to wait years to feel the music, nor learn its musical structure to feel and match its essence.

It's simply one aspect of musicality. Counting isn't musicality, great flavr isn't musicality, but they are all a part of it. (Not hitting the breaks can be musical, it depends on the situation...)

Musicality, IMHO is irrelevant to the body. Musicality is not physically matching a song, rather emotionally achieving the same state of mind as the song. Physical equality only gives the eye something from which to judge. I’m in search of the dancer who can portray the song’s story instead of the structure. That’s when I see musicality. Do I need to care as much as we do about how sound responds to measures of time, care about how we perceive the placement of a body in motion during an exact measure so that I can deem it musicality? Thank god I have vision, otherwise I would never get to see musicality, thank goodness I’m not hearing impaired as I wouldn’t have sound to judge that musicality I supposedly see. Only in a competition is the body a valid measure, a quantity to scrutinize… to a dancer, especially a social dancer who couldn’t care less about the status of an ego, shared emotions is the true measure of oneness, musicality, flavor, etc.

But most people develop feel over time (some never do). Patterns and structure provide a framework for people to build on as they mature.

This is an effect of current teaching methods. Did someone teach you to fall in love in the blink of an eye? Feelings are readily present at conception, missing is a person/thing who can help us get to them (in salsa this should be the teacher). Love isn’t reached by the number of partners we’ve cuddled, nor how many years of caressing we’ve put it into a person(s), rather, the one who will trigger love without any conscious effort. We don’t build love over time time. It is the same idea with feeling for dancing. Too bad the present teachers and methods elongate the process. They just seem to tackle the wrong means time and time again.

A frame of work in art is the self, not the brushes, canvas, nor paint tubes. Get the person to feel the self watch them transform the basic into a master-piece, give them physical tools and watch them say nothing for years.

If I were to agree that feel is something that happens over time, I would have to agree that a person who moves on without ever falling in love did so because they couldn’t feel love, rather than because they didn’t find a person who pulled it right out of the heart.

When I speak of feel I do not refer of physical seamlessness of an event, of finding the sweet spot on a bat, or the line of motion to throw a perfect strike, or the technique behind the slap on a conga, or of movement and time, rather the ability to emotionally connect to music, to partner, to onlookers. Musicality is way of the self before it ever manifests way of the body. Teachers are not starting with foundation, rather covering whatever sign of foundation might be present.

 

[borikenSalsero]

In group classes most students don't want theory, or feeling, or the instructor to talk too much. They want another pattern or a shine combination, hoping that will make them look good to someone they are interested in meeting. They don’t ask questions when they don’t get it and it’s clear they don’t care about the details in many cases.

There are a subset like you who get the bigger picture, but most are there to simply look good enough to dance with someone new tonight and be slightly better than average.

Social dancing for most people is about the social aspects; dance is simply a vehicle for meeting people, entertainment and some fitness. There is nothing wrong with that and those people are the ones who generally foot the bill at most clubs. Serious dancers don't drink much as a rule... and a club generally needs drinkers to keep the lights flashing and pay the band/DJ.

People taking privates are generally investing and they are open to a broader understanding. In those sessions, you can teach theory and work on feel.

A few of us nuts take it beyond that and have all sorts of theoretical discussions about feeling, musicality, timing, teaching, the real definition of dancing, and how life isn't fair to me! :lol:

that was great! I actually like to think of us "virtual" dancers as that type. I mean, how else could we justify ranting about this sort of topic for days.... hehehe

 

[salcero2005]

I guess its based on one’s experiences. I realize Edie gets around and dances a lot more than I do, but quantity doesn’t always equate to quality. I see and know a lot of leads that try to interpret the music when they dance. As far as the music ending and guys continuing the dance ... I see most guys ending the dance with something like a dip or embrace pretty much with the end of the music. From my perspective, the article seems to have some over generalizations. It would be like me faulting women for their obsession with ladies styling and making the argument that it tends to not be consistent with the music ... imagine that, lol.

A few things: Edie wrote that article years ago and she may not express her thoughts in the exact same way today. (But the essence is still valid.)

Almost all articles are generalizations and she will be the first to tell you there are always exceptions. But she has also danced with thousands of leads over the last 10+ years (probably tens of thousands) and she sees things that few of us ever see will due to the diversity of her experience.

She documents the most common issues among dancers, but that doesn't mean those issues apply to you and/or me.

Most guys don't listen to the music and reflect the music in their dancing. So they miss the breaks, the endings and just try to show how many moves they know. I see that regularly in the LA clubs. (There are some who do follow the music, but there are many more who don't...)

That said, it's hard to argue many of us have the perspective she gains from traveling around the world teaching, social dancing and performing.

I also know she still takes privates and is excited to learn new things as she travels. She'll see someone doing something she finds interesting and will pay that person for a private, even if the person is NOT an instructor or an "advanced" dancer.

Most people in her position think they have it figured out but she still loves learning new things and is probably the biggest sponge I've ever meet.

That woman just never stops learning and she'll change her mind if you can present a reasoned argument for something better. I hope I can be that open minded after I dance 10+ years.

I guess Edie's article was TIMELY cause now you can purchase her new DVD and learn all about musicality, lol

 

[devane]

I guess Edie's article was TIMELY cause now you can purchase her new DVD and learn all about musicality, lol

Thanks for the info but where is this dvd? The online store doesn't list it yet (or I cant find it). I remember Edie & Al talking about this on one of the their dvd's but obviously that didn't happen. Well it got made after all.

 

[salcero2005]

I guess Edie's article was TIMELY cause now you can purchase her new DVD and learn all about musicality, lol

Thanks for the info but where is this dvd? The online store doesn't list it yet (or I cant find it). I remember Edie & Al talking about this on one of the their dvd's but obviously that didn't happen. Well it got made after all.

The e-mail I got indicated that the DVD will be available at her bootcamps. Perhaps UnlikelySalsero has more information?

 

[SalsaManiac]

I guess Edie's article was TIMELY cause now you can purchase her new DVD and learn all about musicality, lol

Thanks for the info but where is this dvd? The online store doesn't list it yet (or I cant find it). I remember Edie & Al talking about this on one of the their dvd's but obviously that didn't happen. Well it got made after all.

The e-mail I got indicated that the DVD will be available at her bootcamps. Perhaps UnlikelySalsero has more information?

I got that email too ans was wondering if it was possible to buy it without having to go to the bootcamp. I know she has one coming up soon in Denver so I might make the drive up there then.

--T

 

[chrisk]

I guess Edie's article was TIMELY cause now you can purchase her new DVD and learn all about musicality, lol

Thanks for the info but where is this dvd? The online store doesn't list it yet (or I cant find it). I remember Edie & Al talking about this on one of the their dvd's but obviously that didn't happen. Well it got made after all.

The e-mail I got indicated that the DVD will be available at her bootcamps. Perhaps UnlikelySalsero has more information?

Altough I receive the newsletter from Edie, I must have overlooked the DVD announcement. So I did some research and found out, that you can order the DVD from Peter Fige here:

peterfige.com/order.php

Since the teaser looks interesting and the price seems right, I guess I'll end up buying the DVD.

 

[KP-salsa]

I think that if the same article had been written in a different tone, I'd be much happier with it and in total agreement. (And the cynical side of me wonders if Edie's about to bring out a "Dance to the Music - not the beat" series of intensive DVDs and Boot Camps).

HA!

May 27 I predicted Edie's DVD to follow her musicality rant, sorry Essay, to go alongside her dozens of DVDs for turn patterns, shines and her salsa wallet. Does this woman do ANYTHING without making a dvd of it?

 

[Salsamakossa]

Seems the title of the DVD is Musicality Moves? Does that mean that some moves are not musical? lol...

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

I think that if the same article had been written in a different tone, I'd be much happier with it and in total agreement. (And the cynical side of me wonders if Edie's about to bring out a "Dance to the Music - not the beat" series of intensive DVDs and Boot Camps).

HA!
May 27 I predicted Edie's DVD to follow her musicality rant, sorry Essay, to go alongside her dozens of DVDs for turn patterns, shines and her salsa wallet. Does this woman do ANYTHING without making a dvd of it?

You are allowed to be cynical if you wish.

Who else should be putting out materials for the vast majority of people who haven't been in the scene for years? I'm one of the people encouraging her to put out MORE dvds. She is booked through most of next year, teaching around the world. Without the DVD she is limited primarily to those who attend one of her events. That's not enough reach in my mind.

She started putting out DVDs and teaching salsa long before most people on this list where dancing salsa, but her primary audience isn't the people around for years.

Those people generally think they know enough, so they don't purchase DVDs and few continue with formal dance education. They are strong enough they primarily social dance, do some local performances and enjoy themselves regulary in their local scene (NOTHING wrong with that!)

That is all good, but there are tens of thousands of newer people hungry for quality information and I constantly encourage her to create new materials based on her unique experiences around the world. Few dancers have her perspective, so why should she keep it to herself?

You can love her rant, hate it, think it's silly or ignore it as you see fit. That doesn't negate the fact that the vast majority of dancers don't pay enough attention to the music. I disagree with her rant on one or two minor details, but her overall message is right on.

Nobody is going to agree with everything she says, and she will change her mind if you provide a reasoned argument for a different point of view.

I'm totally biased since I agree with her message and I know her personally. My thought is if she is going to rant on something, she better back it up with some solid suggestions and solutions. Anybody can complain or be a critic. Her strengths include not only raising an issue, but proposing some solutions and delivering it to a vast audience.

And she actually has the reach to make a difference, where if I rant about something, most of the time it's to an audience too small to make any real impact.

Hats off to her for putting something behind her rant rather than just complaining or criticizing others.

 

[Flujo]

For me, the musicality is in the way the dancers move their bodies, not in the steps they execute. Hence musicality doesn't *have* to be the leader's job. If he's too busy to listen to the music, well, he can just listen to his follower. *She's* not too busy! - and if he has a large pattern vocabulary, he can then use her input to inform his selection of the next few patterns.

This can work for 'low vocabulary' leads too. When a follower expresses her enjoyment of the music through her expressions & movement, it increases your confidence and free's you up to think less. I'm sure you've all experienced times when you've been caught by the music for a few seconds only to look at your partner and find her stuck in a 'cold basic' waiting for the next 'move'. When you, as a lead, have lots of moves that's ok, you just select and execute but it's a lot better when your both enjoying & expressing the music equally.

Edit: deleted the rest of this post, some of it was a bit silly and this is a sensible thread

 

[sweavo]

You are allowed to be cynical if you wish.

That's a relief! Cynicism's fast becoming Britain's #1 export!

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

You are allowed to be cynical if you wish.

That's a relief! Cynicism's fast becoming Britain's #1 export!

Hmm... I thought that was invented on this side of the pond, and only recently migrated over the water. We don't take a backseat to anybody when it comes to cynicism. The big difference is here we can't spell the words right and we've messed up the English language.

 

[Flex]

Hmm... I thought that was invented on this side of the pond, and only recently migrated over the water. We don't take a backseat to anybody when it comes to cynicism. The big difference is here we can't spell the words right and we've messed up the English language.

No, no - we can't spell correctly over here, albeit for reasons of poor education rather than New World culture. And the States has produced rather more invigorating English, and neologisms, than Old Albion in recent decades.