Focus on the music FIRST!!by Edie "The Salsa Freak&quot

[sweavo]

No, no - we can't spell correctly over here

u dno wot ur torkin bout innit!

 

[Offbeat]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

Edie has it right; most guys don't take the time to understand the music, instead working on their turn patterns.

Because music has structure, once someone knows the overall structure they can predict the hills/valleys, hit and breaks with a high degree of accuracy, even on new songs. Most guys can learn this in months and practice it regularly in their car on the drive to/from work and the clubs.

The problem is few instructors teach the music structure AND in group classes, many guys just want more turn patterns. They get bothered if an instructor takes the time to explain how the music is structured. Some of that is an intellectual discussion and takes listening to music multiple times. Guys often want more steps and less talking, so most instructors imply the music is important, but don’t break down the details in group classes.

Many guys don't even want to count out loud when practicing, and that is foundational IF you want to understand the music structure.

Disclosure: I teach with Edie at her LA boot camps. I'm hardly objective about her teaching and methods.

In which case may I ask what percentage of time is spent at the boot camp/class regarding music, its structure, what dancing to the music means, how it can make difference in dancing, etc.

I think it is wrong to blame that guys want to learn the turn patterns only. That is a circular argument. Most beginners and especially those who haven't grown up listening to latin/salsa music don't know what they don't know. May be beginners think that patterns are most important because that is what is taught in the class, that is what they see their instructors demonstrate, that is what they see most of the crowd doing on the social dance floor or in the performance. So how would someone coming in to salsa actually get to learn that dancing is more than just churning out turn patterns. And even if they were to realize this on their own, where should they turn to learn it?

If there is a lack of musicality in the lot of beginners/intermediate salsa dancers I will squarely blame the instructor community for this. When I use to learn AT almost all instructors (I must have attended classes from over dozen instructors) would begin by emphasizing dancing to the music from the very first class. Most will simply make you walk to the music rather than try to rush students in to orchos, sakatas, etc. They would explain that embellishments in that dance form are to express the music. Shouldn't Eddie be addressing this to the instructor community first? Can I stretch the argument and say that the salsa instructor community at large has failed the dancers by putting them in wrong direction from the very first step they take to dance salsa.

 

[Offbeat]

US - That was beautifully put. I agree with every word you said below

I tend to take my cues re musical interpretation from my partner: if he is more ballroomy vs more street vs more energetic vs more reserved, whatever it is my movements usually move more in that direction too. And if he is churning me through patterns without a lot of attention to the music, I tend to cooperate with that as well, toning down the musicality (though not losing it completely).

More mature leads often modify their style to compliment the woman, and if done correctly they feed off each other like a conversation... You get more energetic, so do I and we feed off each other. If we are both paying attention what you do should influence my choices and movements.

On the other hand, I very rarely see a guy pick up any cues from *me*. Doubtless that's mostly because they've got lots of other things to think about, but I bet it is also because they are used to being the 'talkers' in the conversation. They are often 'listening' to the extent that they are trying to make sure I am having a good time, which is wonderful and I'm very happy about that - but they are not usually listening to what I think about the music.

That would take a pretty mature lead to pull that off. For example, I may instantly recognize you have a cuban influence. I know what that looks like, but I don't currently have the motion vocabulary (control) to pull that off and integrate it into my dancing (yet). I dance with one follow who has a hip-hop background. I see her doing body/arm waves that would be perfect for me to reflect back to her at points, but I don't have enough control to make that happen at this point (I'm working on it...)

On the other hand, if I see you have a strong movement vocabulary, I may put you in more positions or patterns where I know you'll have the time to show off your vocabulary. In other words, while I may not be able to reflect your current style, I may give more room for your expression to show through.

Mature leads modify their pattern selection based on their follow.

I've seen myself on video with six or seven different partners over time and I look like a different dancer with each one. Leaders don't change their look much with different followers - and I'm not talking about their pattern vocabulary, I'm talking about their movement vocabulary.

That makes sense to me, followers from the start tend to invest more time in their movement vocabulary while the guys are focused on their pattern vocabulary in the beginning. (A generalization.) Most guys build out from their patterns, while most ladies build from their style. (That doesn't fit everybody!)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that musicality *could* be a two-way conversation - unlike patterns, which are a one-way conversation where he talks and I listen - but it very, very rarely turns out that way in practice. I think that could be different, but it would require the leader not only to slow down on the patterns (and there are lots of very attentive and musical leaders around here, I would not say that pattern-monkeys are in any way a majority) but actually to pay attention to the woman's interpretation of the music and try to incorporate it into what he's doing. That second bit is much rarer and, I would guess, much harder for someone who is not used to being the listener in the conversation.

You are correct, the dance should be a conversation. Note that just because I understand the concepts intellectually, as a lead I may not have the ability to react in real time and modify my dance to hold up my end of the conversation.

Sometimes I hear things in the music and/or see my partner and I can't respond fast enough or maybe I don't have the body control required to express what I'm feeling in response to your movements.

I can sit here on the board and I recognize the concepts (salsa dance closely parellels many jazz concepts) but that doesn't mean I have the physical skills to execute the right feel for my partner and the music.

Well. I don't consider the patterns to be the main component of the musicality. IMHO you can have a really beautiful, musical dance with just three patterns. <snip>

We are on the same page here... except the same pattern can be executed with many different feels. Most women can say the words "I hate you" (or "I love you") with a tone that can be whispered in a sexy tone or screaming and in the "I'll rip your head off" tone. Same words, a wide range of feelings.

My point is that if he had been listening to what I thought about the song he wouldn't have given me that spin in the first place.

Absolutely yes! I agree that the selection of moves/patterns should be appropriate for the woman and the song, and fit the conversation.

So yes, the leader usually 'sets the tone for the dance.' But that's a contingent fact, not a theoretical constraint. It doesn't have to be that way. Musicality can be a two-way street, but both dancers have to be listening.

In an ideal world, it should be a conversation with the music providing the context. Most of the time the lead sets the tone, although I totally agree with you that the dance should be a conversation. It may not be today if I don't have the overall vocabulary to express my feelings, but over time it is moving in that direction.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

Edie has it right; most guys don't take the time to understand the music, instead working on their turn patterns.

Because music has structure, once someone knows the overall structure they can predict the hills/valleys, hit and breaks with a high degree of accuracy, even on new songs. Most guys can learn this in months and practice it regularly in their car on the drive to/from work and the clubs.

The problem is few instructors teach the music structure AND in group classes, many guys just want more turn patterns. They get bothered if an instructor takes the time to explain how the music is structured. <snip>

In which case may I ask what percentage of time is spent at the boot camp/class regarding music, its structure, what dancing to the music means, how it can make difference in dancing, etc.

In the bootcamps Edie dedicates a hour or more discussing the music. And her bootcamps in the fall are now including a full day of musicality training. In my classes I bring it up, but in club classes most guys want as little talk as possible, and the most action with the ladies.

I think it is wrong to blame that guys want to learn the turn patterns only. That is a circular argument. Most beginners and especially those who haven't grown up listening to latin/salsa music don't know what they don't know. May be beginners think that patterns are most important because that is what is taught in the class, that is what they see their instructors demonstrate, that is what they see most of the crowd doing on the social dance floor or in the performance. So how would someone coming in to salsa actually get to learn that dancing is more than just churning out turn patterns. And even if they were to realize this on their own, where should they turn to learn it?

That's the point of this thread... Most guys don't know, especially the newer people. It's not easy to teach, because unless someone has a grounding in the music, it's not something you get in one hour or a few weeks. And we all start with a different set of ears, so just because you hear the clave, piano, bongos or mambo bell, doesn't mean I'm hearing it.

Then if you are hearing everything (few are), then you have to have the movement skills to create a visual which matches the instruments. It's a multi-layered process, and I totally agree, most new guys won't know about it.

As I've said before, the vast majority of guys take a few months worth of club classes, then they pick-up the rest of their moves from watching others. If a club instructor invested 30 minutes in explaining music, 80% of the people wouldn't return the next week. If they don't return, you can't teach them about ANYTHING; no moves, no music, or how it all fits together.

If someone takes a series class at a dance studio, that instructor knows he has people for X weeks, and with that info they can introduce musicality principles. It's not that a club instructor doesn't mention the music and how it fits, but with 30 people (or more) in classes I don't stop and point out the guys who are totally off the time. If I see it I'll mention the concepts of the music and dancing working together, but most guys still don't get it. (I demo it, but again, most still don't get it...)

If there is a lack of musicality in the lot of beginners/intermediate salsa dancers I will squarely blame the instructor community for this. When I use to learn AT almost all instructors (I must have attended classes from over dozen instructors) would begin by emphasizing dancing to the music from the very first class. Most will simply make you walk to the music rather than try to rush students in to orchos, sakatas, etc. They would explain that embellishments in that dance form are to express the music. Shouldn't Eddie be addressing this to the instructor community first? Can I stretch the argument and say that the salsa instructor community at large has failed the dancers by putting them in wrong direction from the very first step they take to dance salsa.

No... I don't buy that because it's a give and take... The instructors can't get you to learn anything you don't want to learn. And while I personally love the musicality part of the dance, I've found I can give more than most instructors but if I go too far, students simply don't return.

There are aspects of musicality that are mind work, because you can't move your body to sounds you don't hear. If you don't know the solo is about to end, you can't structure your dance to reflect the mood change when the horn section returns. If you can't hear a break or ending is about to happen, you have no chance of setting yourself up for a dip/break or freeze to reflect the stop in the music.

Instructors always minimize some things. If I'm teaching someone to do a single or double turn, I mention they should spot their partner. But I don't stop and take 5-10 minutes to do spotting exercises. Sure I could, and those exercise pay off over time, but most guys are NOT going to invest the time to master that concept until THEY DECIDE they want to look like pros when spinning. Lots of ladies don't work on that either, and again, it's up to the student to find someone who can assist with that technique.

My point is instructors minimize all sorts of issue, because a student can only deal with so much at once. The instructors have some blame, but if they don't get students to return, it doesn't matter how great the instructors materials or teaching methods.

I agree all instructors need to be pointing it out, and should be discussing it along with learning the steps. I have students who hear me say 20 times that "this step goes with the one in the music", yet once they are dancing during practice time, they aren't in the zip code. If I ask them if they have any questions, they say "no thanks, I've got it..."

I taught a class tonight... Guy didn't have basic working at all, wanted me to show him how to turn the lady and do a CBL. He didn't see why he needed to have basic working. Ignored my "make a nice round circle, like a pizza or a halo about an inch over the lady's head." Ignored my "adjust your position to the height of your partner..." It didn't take me long to realize this guy wasn't going to listen to what I was saying, he just wanted to see what I was doing, and then do it his way.

As an instructor, I help those who actually want my help.

So it's a mixed bag... Adults learn what they want to learn, and it is up to the instructor community to make a big deal about the important points. And you are right, most instructors don't know enough about the music themselves, so they aren't going to teach areas they haven't studied along the way.

All to say, there is enough blame to go around. The solutions start with awareness of the issue, then people will take some time to get educated. Most people don't want an education until they see dancing is fun and then worth the effort to get above average.

And I don't blame the students, they don't go to a class to sit and hear about music theory. They want to dance with someone who smells good and pretends they are interesting. I do think the intermedate/advanced guys miss the boat if they are simply focused on patterns.

And as we have discussed over and over, people reading this board are fundamentally abnormal. (At least that applies to me.) What type of person reads about dancing on their computer? How you learn and what you're willing to study is outside the norm for most people attending a club class.

 

[ptwist]

whats weird about this article ...is i danced with her the first time and it was a great success...the beat was nice for me to move in and show off my style...and i ended the song perfectly when i spinned her into a dip.....

the second time ...i was being a bit overzealous on being creative and showing off my individual moves and style that i totally forgot about the 1 beat....and she kept reminding me on the dance floor

"you can do w/e you want but make sure on the one beat you step forward"

base of the article and my dance with her..both are equally important and compliment eachother...most songs are the same in terms of how they are presented with the peaks...and drags of certain instruments but not all know the song from the beginning to the end to know how to compliment it with the move.....

we can't all be alex lima in one night

 

[SalsaManiac]

base of the article and my dance with her..both are equally important and compliment eachother...most songs are the same in terms of how they are presented with the peaks...and drags of certain instruments but not all know the song from the beginning to the end to know how to compliment it with the move.....

we can't all be alex lima in one night

How true ... I took his musicality class when I was in Palm Springs and one of the things he stressed was the idea of not only trying to interpret the music within the 8 bars but also have a fixed reference point that should always be marked out (in this case, count 1)

--T

 

[Offbeat]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

That's the point of this thread... Most guys don't know, especially the newer people. It's not easy to teach, because unless someone has a grounding in the music, it's not something you get in one hour or a few weeks. And we all start with a different set of ears, so just because you hear the clave, piano, bongos or mambo bell, doesn't mean I'm hearing it.

Then if you are hearing everything (few are), then you have to have the movement skills to create a visual which matches the instruments. It's a multi-layered process, and I totally agree, most new guys won't know about it.

I agree and understand what you are saying. Right now I am going through the equivalent of beginner's hell in terms of getting my ear to hear the music. It as torturous or more as was taking the first basic steps.

As I've said before, the vast majority of guys take a few months worth of club classes, then they pick-up the rest of their moves from watching others. If a club instructor invested 30 minutes in explaining music, 80% of the people wouldn't return the next week. If they don't return, you can't teach them about ANYTHING; no moves, no music, or how it all fits together.

I wasn't referring to club classes. I believe club classes only serve to get people interested in salsa but not in teaching them how to dance. It is not possible to do justice to salsa dancing in one hour club class once a week. I was talking about workshop style or progressive series classes that more serious minded beginners start taking once they get caught by the salsa bug.

How is it that in other dance forms both instructors and students are willing to learn about musical aspect of the dancing. Every AT instructor also told me that it takes an average lead at least a year's worth of practice or more before they can go out dancing at Milongas !

 

[SnowDancer]

After reading this thread, I've decided to go to the 'musicality' workshop being offered this weekend and taught by Manuel Martinez . I went to one a few months ago by a local instructor, and really enjoyed it.

 

[sweavo]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

I agree and understand what you are saying. Right now I am going through the equivalent of beginner's hell in terms of getting my ear to hear the music. It as torturous or more as was taking the first basic steps.

plug! Link removed by Moderator. Please do not use "live" links in this section.

 

[jayzen]

hey sweavo

plug it may be but this is DARN useful! lovely tool

many thanks for sharing


jayzen

 

[Offbeat]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

I agree and understand what you are saying. Right now I am going through the equivalent of beginner's hell in terms of getting my ear to hear the music. It as torturous or more as was taking the first basic steps.

plug! Link removed by Moderator

Thanks ! This looks like something I was looking for. Will check it out after I am at home.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

I agree and understand what you are saying. Right now I am going through the equivalent of beginner's hell in terms of getting my ear to hear the music. It as torturous or more as was taking the first basic steps.

plug! Link removed by Moderator

And I have to add my two-cents on this one.

That is a great tool!! A ton of work and deserving of a big thank-you!

 

[Flujo]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

I agree and understand what you are saying. Right now I am going through the equivalent of beginner's hell in terms of getting my ear to hear the music. It as torturous or more as was taking the first basic steps.

plug! Link removed by Moderator

Sweavo that's excellent! Didn't know you were into production? Keep up the good work sir.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

<snip>
I wasn't referring to club classes. I believe club classes only serve to get people interested in salsa but not in teaching them how to dance. It is not possible to do justice to salsa dancing in one hour club class once a week. I was talking about workshop style or progressive series classes that more serious minded beginners start taking once they get caught by the salsa bug.

OK... We are on the same page. In series classes or workshops, some time should be invested in understanding the music.

How is it that in other dance forms both instructors and students are willing to learn about musical aspect of the dancing. Every AT instructor also told me that it takes an average lead at least a year's worth of practice or more before they can go out dancing at Milongas !

Most salsa dancers expect to be able to club dance in weeks, some expect to dance the first night. Unless you grow up with it, AT dancers take a long time to get started, and most know that going in.

I think of Salsa as a gateway dance. You can start doing it with little training and have fun, although some may argue your "salsa" isn't.

When you get more serious about it then you may be willing to invest, taking time to understand music, and learning about the finer points of dancing. I suspect that AT is a second/alternate dance for most people (unless you grow up around it). I doubt there are many "drop-in" classes for AT, because you can't do step 5, without a solid grounding in steps 1, 2, 3 & 4.

You start with a series class, you work with the same partner regularly and it's assumed you practice each week. We don't exactly think that way in the Salsa world.

The community is also different, similar to the music community. Most musicians don't expect to play in the symphony or a jazz band the first year they start playing piano or drums. But they can play keyboards/drums in a garage band, because the music is more accessable, and it's based on certain feels that are typically less refined.

Most people start salsa because it looks fun, and they really don't want the details at first. When the want to be above average, then the investment starts.

 

[SnowDancer]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

In the bootcamps Edie dedicates a hour or more discussing the music. And her bootcamps in the fall are now including a full day of musicality training.

That would be great. Are these bootcamps for intermediate dancers, then? Any in L.A.?

I've taken a couple 1.5-hour 'musicality' workshops now. They've been helpful, but I found that the 2nd, unsurprisingly, was pretty much the same as the first. It would be good to have something more intensive, perhaps including body isolation practice.

This would also be a good topic for a DVD, since it doesn't require a partner.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

Re: Song Before Beat - Wish They All Could

In the bootcamps Edie dedicates a hour or more discussing the music. And her bootcamps in the fall are now including a full day of musicality training.

That would be great. Are these bootcamps for intermediate dancers, then? Any in L.A.?

I've taken a couple 1.5-hour 'musicality' workshops now. They've been helpful, but I found that the 2nd, unsurprisingly, was pretty much the same as the first. It would be good to have something more intensive, perhaps including body isolation practice.

This would also be a good topic for a DVD, since it doesn't require a partner.

Her next LA boot camp in September includes the day of musicality (Sunday). She is flying in one of her favorite musicality dancers from out of town for the Sunday session. I drawing a blank on the guys name at this second.

Check my blog (on the left) for a link to the bootcamp times/dates/location. ("Unlikely Teaching Here") I can fill in the blanks later because I'll get the details.

 

[jayzen]

salsa is generally an easy dance to pick up but a difficult one to master.

therein lies the appeal and also the "disadvantage" of the dance.

it's easy to get ppl started, hence the mass appeal worldwide, but the easy start also sometimes puts the important aspects (i.e. things discussed to death here - proper technique, musicality etc) into the background that only comes forward when safety/awareness/personal disatisfaction/enlightenment happens.

for a majority, sadly, regardless of skill, these sometimes doesn't happen at all....


jayzen

 

[peachexploration]

Salser@s, please refrain from using "Live" links in this section. Further post with "live" links will be deleted without warning.

Salsa Forum Guideline 6. Posting links in messages that promote commercial websites is discouraged. In some cases, mentioning the name of the product or website (without the www, .com, .net, .etc) is tolerated if it pertains to the discussion thread.

 

[salcero2005]

And this from Edie's website:

TEACHING MUSICALITY
Teaching musicality is an art in itself. Executing it beautifully without pain or aggravation is virtually impossible if you are not taught the proper methods and techniques.

Musicality in Salsa is still in its infancy. Tone-deaf Salseros who are consistently and always “off-beat” learn Musicality faster - why? Because they have memorized all the songs, and know every hit and break in the music. In 1994, my first dance partner was tone deaf. He drove me nuts, but we won many competitions because we “knew the music perfectly” – every social dance looked like a show. He was actually light years ahead of his time. Tone deaf Salseros love Salsa just as much as the next guy, but were born tone-deaf and cannot hear the basic beats. It’s not their fault – they were literally born that way. Their “rhythmic motor skill-to-brain” connection is simply not there. They will never be able to correlate their legs to the beat of the music – EVER. And you cannot help them so don’t even try. Just smile and love them for who they are. But you know what? They have a passion for Salsa more than the rest of us – at times even more so, than those of us who are fixated and addicted to staying “On Beat” 100% of the time – which is impossibility if the musician switched the beats of the song within the music. Do you know why musicians do that? BECAUSE THEY CAN. They created the song!! They can do whatever they want with it! It’s their music!

I’ve witnessed Salseros who think that being “On The Right Timing” is so important that they forget about the song and its unique character and story. Sure staying on time is important, but we end up focusing on the counts, rather than the beauty and richness within the music. This is a real tragedy. Musicality brings us back to dancing and interpreting the song the way the artist originally intended it. It gets our minds to re-focus on why we started dancing to begin with – to have fun and forget about life for a while. Salsa is like a hospital – a retreat of recovery from the tragedies of life and recuperation from our hardships and trials. It is a form of relaxation and exercise. It is bliss taken to a higher level. It’s just too bad the Mambo Police busted in on our drug-like cloud and lined up along the dance floor watching and criticizing our timing. God help us if we accidentally step forward on the Two rather than the Six, or the Five, rather than the One for a measure or two... "

My thoughts:

"Executing it (i.e., musicality) beautifully without pain or aggravation is virtually impossible if you are not taught the proper methods and techniques." I've seen many dancers do it with no formal training.

"Musicality in Salsa is still in its infancy." I wish she would have elaborated because musicality existed way before Edie. Perhaps she is talking about its potential. If you look at the old footage of Palladium dancers you saw a lot of musical interpretation of the music. What about Cuba?

"Musicality brings us back to dancing and interpreting the song the way the artist originally intended it" Again this sounds like the pre-text for another marketing pitch. Dancers feel and interpret music differently when they go by their true feelings and not some contrived routine laid out in a commercial DVD or bootcamp. Do or did salsa artists make music for dancers to dance a certain way to their music? If the song is about a particular dance, that may be true but this is another case of over generalization and oversimplification.

"Because they have memorized all the songs, and know every hit and break in the music." This is not musicality; this is choreography, and this is an important point that Edie is missing. Timing and musicality are not mutually exclusive. The notion that you have to memorize a song is ridiculous. If you know the structure of music as many mamberos do, you will have a sense of the ebbs and flows in the music.

In general its good that people are talking about this issue :lol:

 

[noobster]

My thoughts: [/b]

"Executing it (i.e., musicality) beautifully without pain or aggravation is virtually impossible if you are not taught the proper methods and techniques." I've seen many dancers do it with no formal training.

"Musicality in Salsa is still in its infancy." I wish she would have elaborated because musicality existed way before Edie. Perhaps she is talking about its potential. If you look at the old footage of Palladium dancers you saw a lot of musical interpretation of the music. What about Cuba?

"Musicality brings us back to dancing and interpreting the song the way the artist originally intended it" Again this sounds like the pre-text for another marketing pitch. Dancers feel and interpret music differently when they go by their true feelings and not some contrived routine laid out in a commercial DVD or bootcamp. Do or did salsa artists make music for dancers to dance a certain way to their music? If the song is about a particular dance, that may be true but this is another case of over generalization and oversimplification.

"Because they have memorized all the songs, and know every hit and break in the music." This is not musicality; this is choreography, and this is an important point that Edie is missing. Timing and musicality are not mutually exclusive. The notion that you have to memorize a song is ridiculous. If you know the structure of music as many mamberos do, you will have a sense of the ebbs and flows in the music.

ITA on all counts, salcero2005!!