Focus on the music FIRST!!by Edie "The Salsa Freak&quot

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>
I think it also helps to be a follower. We have so much less to think about. I basically turn my brain off when I dance, whereas the guy has a zillion other things to worry about: planning the next move, leading it on time, watching for other couples, executing his own footwork, making sure he is not overstretching, manhandling, confusing or boring the follower, etc etc etc. Musicality is really important to a good dance but it still comes *after* staying on beat, connecting/smiling, and not crashing me into other people <snip>

I actually do not understand why the guy ends up having so much of the responsibility for the musicality of the dance. Since he's got so much else to think about, it would seem reasonable for him to just ramp down the patterns and let the follower have time to do her own thing. Unfortunately some leaders seem to fear the dance will be boring if they don't fill every second with a new pattern, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

It actually works both ways... If I understands the music I can do fewer patterns, and if I catch the breaks, I can put my follower in a position to dance and show off if she is a better dancer than me.

Leads are responsible because we pick the patterns and set the tone for the dance. If a slow romantic tune starts and I put in triple spins and complex moves, my follow will do those moves (assuming she has the technique to handle my lead).

If I'm tuned to the music, I will do less when the music is simplier, let my partner dance more and ramp up the moves over the course of the song, reflecting the mood of the music. Also, music repeats at logical points, so if I understand that I might be doing variations of the same move when it matches the music. (Musicians repeat stuff all the time... most songs state a theme and then repeat it with variations a few times...)

In many cases, if the musicality is earlier for the guys, it actually reduces their needs for more and more patterns because some parts of the music don't call for intense moves.

I consider keeping the time part of the musicality. I suspect most guys would be better served understanding the music sooner rather than later, but there are many paths to becoming a strong lead.

 

[sagitta]

But then shouldn't the dancing done also reflect the people dancing. If I'm a simple fellow even at complex parts I may not do complex turn patterns. The dancing may change but not necessarily in the complexity. One can move one's body differently while just doing a basic to express the rise and fall of the song.

 

[salcero2005]

I guess its based on one’s experiences. I realize Edie gets around and dances a lot more than I do, but quantity doesn’t always equate to quality. I see and know a lot of leads that try to interpret the music when they dance. As far as the music ending and guys continuing the dance ... I see most guys ending the dance with something like a dip or embrace pretty much with the end of the music. From my perspective, the article seems to have some over generalizations. It would be like me faulting women for their obsession with ladies styling and making the argument that it tends to not be consistent with the music ... imagine that, lol.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

But then shouldn't the dancing done also reflect the people dancing. If I'm a simple fellow even at complex parts I may not do complex turn patterns. The dancing may change but not necessarily in the complexity. One can move one's body differently while just doing a basic to express the rise and fall of the song.

Sure... your concept is valid as long as your material reflects the mood of the music. Maybe complexity isn't the best term, but I do tend to save my more intense moves for more intense music.

If the horn section is going crazy at the climax of the tune, I doubt I would do my simple cross body lead and then a simple right hand turn with the lady followed by two basics. (An extreme example.) That's where I would generally lead multiple turns and more intense, complex patterns.

Depending on how mature I am as a dancer, the simple move above could be a better choice than attempting complex moves that are beyond my level to lead gracefully. Pushing and yanking are NOT my idea of a good lead...

I don't attempt complex moves unless I feel I can lead them comfortably, my partner is mature enough to follow them comfortably AND the music is right for the intensity. All three elements must come together otherwise complexity isn’t appropriate in my mind.

If in doubt, less is more for most situations. Most advanced follows would rather have me do clean, simple moves instead of poorly execute an intense move and make them uncomfortable.

Ideally, over time I build a set of simple, medium, and complex moves and patterns (I call it my "Pattern Vocabulary.") Just like learning to speak and write, having a larger vocabulary doesn't mean I want to use big words all the time, but I want to have a large set to choose from so I can express my thoughts with precision when speaking and writing.

You can also express intensity with styling, and can do that with simple moves as well.

Again, the point is to think about what you are doing and relate it directly to the music. If you can express intensity with simple moves and styling, then that is perfect. Sometimes I want more intensity, but I don’t have good material available to express what I feel… That takes time, experience and the desire to grow as a dancer and find better ways to express yourself.

BTW – Doing simple moves very well is an advanced art. Few do it with finesse! When done right it can be just a powerful as intense material.

 

[salcero2005]

Re: Focus on the music FIRST!!by Edie "The Salsa Freak&

As a lady and beginner like me, I should say I get really freaked out to dance with a advanced dancer as because they always have a lot of complex moves that i wish i can follow. Most of time I found I try to figure out how to follow the moves instead of listening the music, and missed out the beat/timing. And I always find quite hard to be on time although my moves and spins are fine, wondering if anyone can give me some suggestions to get better on timing? I did start listen the salsa music very often now and try to pick up the beats. But once i get on to the dance floor, everything is gone out of the window. :cry:

I'm no expert, but I would like to offer this ... just concetrate on learning the fundamentals and don't put pressure on yourself. Complex moves are all based on fundamental concepts. If you learn the basics, the complex stuff will make sense ... maybe not the first time ... but over time.

Timing comes with practice and developing an ear for the music. Listen to salsa as much as possible and practice your basics and spins until you can do the stuff in your sleep. Timing is critical. At the same time, see if you can get a practice partner to work on your follow/timing and also social dance with as many guys as possible so you can get exposed to different leads, combos, etc. Good luck

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

I guess its based on one’s experiences. I realize Edie gets around and dances a lot more than I do, but quantity doesn’t always equate to quality. I see and know a lot of leads that try to interpret the music when they dance. As far as the music ending and guys continuing the dance ... I see most guys ending the dance with something like a dip or embrace pretty much with the end of the music. From my perspective, the article seems to have some over generalizations. It would be like me faulting women for their obsession with ladies styling and making the argument that it tends to not be consistent with the music ... imagine that, lol.

A few things: Edie wrote that article years ago and she may not express her thoughts in the exact same way today. (But the essence is still valid.)

Almost all articles are generalizations and she will be the first to tell you there are always exceptions. But she has also danced with thousands of leads over the last 10+ years (probably tens of thousands) and she sees things that few of us ever see will due to the diversity of her experience.

She documents the most common issues among dancers, but that doesn't mean those issues apply to you and/or me.

Most guys don't listen to the music and reflect the music in their dancing. So they miss the breaks, the endings and just try to show how many moves they know. I see that regularly in the LA clubs. (There are some who do follow the music, but there are many more who don't...)

That said, it's hard to argue many of us have the perspective she gains from traveling around the world teaching, social dancing and performing.

I also know she still takes privates and is excited to learn new things as she travels. She'll see someone doing something she finds interesting and will pay that person for a private, even if the person is NOT an instructor or an "advanced" dancer.

Most people in her position think they have it figured out but she still loves learning new things and is probably the biggest sponge I've ever meet.

That woman just never stops learning and she'll change her mind if you can present a reasoned argument for something better. I hope I can be that open minded after I dance 10+ years.

 

[salcero2005]

I guess its based on one’s experiences. I realize Edie gets around and dances a lot more than I do, but quantity doesn’t always equate to quality. I see and know a lot of leads that try to interpret the music when they dance. As far as the music ending and guys continuing the dance ... I see most guys ending the dance with something like a dip or embrace pretty much with the end of the music. From my perspective, the article seems to have some over generalizations. It would be like me faulting women for their obsession with ladies styling and making the argument that it tends to not be consistent with the music ... imagine that, lol.

A few things: Edie wrote that article years ago and she may not express her thoughts in the exact same way today. (But the essence is still valid.)

Almost all articles are generalizations and she will be the first to tell you there are always exceptions. But she has also danced with thousands of leads over the last 10+ years (probably tens of thousands) and she sees things that few of us ever see will due to the diversity of her experience.

She documents the most common issues among dancers, but that doesn't mean those issues apply to you and/or me.

Most guys don't listen to the music and reflect the music in their dancing. So they miss the breaks, the endings and just try to show how many moves they know. I see that regularly in the LA clubs. (There are some who do follow the music, but there are many more who don't...)

That said, it's hard to argue many of us have the perspective she gains from traveling around the world teaching, social dancing and performing.

I also know she still takes privates and is excited to learn new things as she travels. She'll see someone doing something she finds interesting and will pay that person for a private, even if the person is NOT an instructor or an "advanced" dancer.

Most people in her position think they have it figured out but she still loves learning new things and is probably the biggest sponge I've ever meet.

That woman just never stops learning and she'll change her mind if you can present a reasoned argument for something better. I hope I can be that open minded after I dance 10+ years.

I remember you from Edie's Palm Springs event so I know you think highly of her. I'm typing this from DC and Edie will be in DC this weekend, but I'm going to LA on Friday so I might not catch her. There is the possibility that I will get back in time to catch her at a social in Maryland on Sunday. If I see her, I might ask her about the article. I don't travel all around the world, but I get to see people from all around the world come to NYC to dance. Maybe I will see Edie come to a venue like a Frankie Martinez social one day.

 

[sweavo]

I actually do not understand why the guy ends up having so much of the responsibility for the musicality of the dance. Since he's got so much else to think about, it would seem reasonable for him to just ramp down the patterns and let the follower have time to do her own thing. Unfortunately some leaders seem to fear the dance will be boring if they don't fill every second with a new pattern, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

Interesting. I think this comes back to the "he the frame, she the picture" idea. That idea could usefully be interpreted as "he doesn't NEED to work so hard [at patterns and styling] because she needs the time/opportunity to style and interpret too".

However you're exactly right in my experience. Most males quickly conclude that number of patterns is what makes a good leader good. I guess this is because patterns can be counted, whereas musicality or smoothness or humor or interpretation or connection cannot.

 

[UnlikelySalsero]

<snip>
I remember you from Edie's Palm Springs event so I know you think highly of her. I'm typing this from DC and Edie will be in DC this weekend, but I'm going to LA on Friday so I might not catch her. There is the possibility that I will get back in time to catch her at a social in Maryland on Sunday. If I see her, I might ask her about the article. I don't travel all around the world, but I get to see people from all around the world come to NYC to dance. Maybe I will see Edie come to a venue like a Frankie Martinez social one day.

It wouldn't surprise me to see her at one of those socials, especially if one is happening around a congress or other event. She is travelling/dancing almost every weekend of the year and I'm surprised how much she still loves to social dance. Last weekend she danced until the clubs closed every night she was here, even though she had to teach all day in-between.

I do think highly of her and I taught with her for two days at her recent LA boot camp. I'm also teaching at her Palm Springs event this summer. (I teach one of the musicality classes among others...)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm hardly objective about her since I know her well.

We talk about these subjects for hours, comparing notes on what we observe in the clubs. My persective is often slighly different as I'm a long time musician.

If you are in LA on a Saturday night and you go dancing, let me know and maybe we'll meet at one of the clubs. I love having a face with the names of people I know through the boards.

 

[noobster]

Interesting. I think this comes back to the "he the frame, she the picture" idea. That idea could usefully be interpreted as "he doesn't NEED to work so hard [at patterns and styling] because she needs the time/opportunity to style and interpret too".

I'd actually take it a step farther and say that musicality is a conversation like everything else.

I tend to take my cues re musical interpretation from my partner: if he is more ballroomy vs more street vs more energetic vs more reserved, whatever it is my movements usually move more in that direction too. And if he is churning me through patterns without a lot of attention to the music, I tend to cooperate with that as well, toning down the musicality (though not losing it completely).

Obviously I'm not a complete mirror of him - I've got my own body with its own characteristic ways of moving - but within my own spectrum of possible movements, I'm choosing a subset that are closer to what he's doing.

On the other hand, I very rarely see a guy pick up any cues from *me*. Doubtless that's mostly because they've got lots of other things to think about, but I bet it is also because they are used to being the 'talkers' in the conversation. They are often 'listening' to the extent that they are trying to make sure I am having a good time, which is wonderful and I'm very happy about that - but they are not usually listening to what I think about the music.

I've seen myself on video with six or seven different partners over time and I look like a different dancer with each one. Leaders don't change their look much with different followers - and I'm not talking about their pattern vocabulary, I'm talking about their movement vocabulary.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that musicality *could* be a two-way conversation - unlike patterns, which are a one-way conversation where he talks and I listen - but it very, very rarely turns out that way in practice. I think that could be different, but it would require the leader not only to slow down on the patterns (and there are lots of very attentive and musical leaders around here, I would not say that pattern-monkeys are in any way a majority) but actually to pay attention to the woman's interpretation of the music and try to incorporate it into what he's doing. That second bit is much rarer and, I would guess, much harder for someone who is not used to being the listener in the conversation.

Leads are responsible because we pick the patterns and set the tone for the dance. If a slow romantic tune starts and I put in triple spins and complex moves, my follow will do those moves (assuming she has the technique to handle my lead).

Well. I don't consider the patterns to be the main component of the musicality. IMHO you can have a really beautiful, musical dance with just three patterns. For me, the musicality is in the way the dancers move their bodies, not in the steps they execute. Hence musicality doesn't *have* to be the leader's job. If he's too busy to listen to the music, well, he can just listen to his follower. *She's* not too busy! - and if he has a large pattern vocabulary, he can then use her input to inform his selection of the next few patterns.

You are right that if a leader gives me a triple spin during a slow, romantic song then I am going to do the triple spin. My point is that if he had been listening to what I thought about the song he wouldn't have given me that spin in the first place.

So yes, the leader usually 'sets the tone for the dance.' But that's a contingent fact, not a theoretical constraint. It doesn't have to be that way. Musicality can be a two-way street, but both dancers have to be listening.

 

[borikenSalsero]

I'm a little iffy with the concept of learning structure to "anticipate" and "react". While I admit that knowledge is a must, not knowing how to use it is the issue that underlines its abundance.

Thinking decreases the ability to feel. Feeling decreases thought process, which IMHO is necessary for motion to turn into a dance. Regardless of how “second nature” knowledge becomes! Only when a meditative state is reached can we really be feeling without thinking. Meditative states do not come about way of knowledge, only absence of thought.

There is an assumption that hitting breaks or accents consummates dancing, even that it means musicality. We are not robots, we feel. Each song projects a feeling which becomes impossible to match when the brain is busy sending and processing signals in anticipation of what is going to happen. This is the type of dancer looks as if dancing alone, or the couple that looks like 10 dancers simply because they have knowledge and the music is rich. They think, hey, musical layers, whoa, let me match it, yet look as alive as a bug splattered on the windshield. Oops, let me smile, yeap, that did it, I’m in tune with the music.

Teaching, overwhelmed with patterns and musical structure, utterly neglects feelings. I don't blame it, teaching to feel is rather difficult and a lacking attribute of the salsa scene today. How can someone who can’t feel, teach someone how to feel?

Examples are ample. The aesthetically driven society we’ve built teaches us to pursue a luxurious façade empty on the inside. In a nutshell, that’s what is mostly taught in classrooms across the salsa scene. Build a nice dance, don’t worry about the message just concentrate on hitting breaks and accents, then you’ll have musicality and Sabor.

Feeling the music and dancing with Sabor is in everyone’s mouth, yet reason is taught as the pathway to conquest. We’ve truly turned salsa into another product of the fast food nation. Everyone sells a product, advertises the reason why it should be bought, yet education about what’s being sold and purchased is absent. I rather watch the folks who get it than the many who stride for knowledge but don’t know what to do with it…

 

[salcero2005]

Leaders don't change their look much with different followers - and I'm not talking about their pattern vocabulary, I'm talking about their movement vocabulary.

Anyone have a vid that illustrates any of the points being made such as the one above, or about guys focussing on turn patterns and being less in tune with the music that their female counterpart?

I already expressed my opinion on the subject above. Here is a vid that I picked from IMambo to illustrate what I consider to be somewhat representative of how I see guys dancing. I purposely picked a vid with dancers not based in NYC so there would be no geographical bias.

Tell me what you think?
imambo.tv/mambo/images/zoom/LHOTNZ/psyon_janice.wmv

 

[terence]

Hola amigo, we,ve had this discussion in so many different ways, that i have lost count.

The underlying problem is not the dancer, but , the " teacher ? "


I have literally danced all over the world, and there is a common fault at work ( or play ), and it is universal.

There are numerous people teaching, who 5 mins ago were were taking lessons , and the people that taught them , in many cases , were taking five minutes before them !. Have seen it many major cities.

Teaching is a complex animal that has to be looked at from many sides-- being a great dancer has not one thing to do with teaching, they are not synonymous .


Seldom do I find dancers , who have ever been given any advice about what constitutes a partnership. To add to this problem , they are invariably totally unaware of the musical implications that abound in any given piece of music. Listen to them count 123-- 567-- that is the general
idea, that has been passed down, on how to dance to ALL songs, like painting by numbers.

I have as recently as 2 weeks ago, had 3 students come to me from another city, that had been taking for upwards of 5 yrs ( apparently from a well known teacher ) and still had not been given any lesson on musicality .

We are fortunate to have those on this site, that have a far greater understanding of the requirements .

It is nigh impossible to convey what one needs to impart with the written word . Break downs of movement are essential, but they NEVER truly give the total picture .

 

[memito]

Salcero2005,

The guy in the video has some great moves - but on an off-topic note - he also does what a lot of 250lb Tight End football player type salseros seem to do... that is, he takes over a good 1/4 of that entire dance floor with his moves and pattern work... It is this sort of dude that crashes his partner into your partner and then gives you the look of death like you were to blame (or at least should have know to get out of his way)...

Just needed to get that observation off my chest....

 

[salcero2005]

Salcero2005,

The guy in the video has some great moves - but on an off-topic note - he also does what a lot of 250lb Tight End football player type salseros seem to do... that is, he takes over a good 1/4 of that entire dance floor with his moves and pattern work... It is this sort of dude that crashes his partner into your partner and then gives you the look of death like you were to blame (or at least should have know to get out of his way)...

Just needed to get that observation off my chest....

I think the guy has pretty good floor awareness. I never see anyone close to them, as there seems to be a lot of free space on the dance floor.

 

[tj]

:applause: Very, very nice! :applause:

I'm a little iffy with the concept of learning structure to "anticipate" and "react". While I admit that knowledge is a must, not knowing how to use it is the issue that underlines its abundance.

Thinking decreases the ability to feel. Feeling decreases thought process, which IMHO is necessary for motion to turn into a dance. Regardless of how “second nature” knowledge becomes! Only when a meditative state is reached can we really be feeling without thinking. Meditative states do not come about way of knowledge, only absence of thought.

There is an assumption that hitting breaks or accents consummates dancing, even that it means musicality. We are not robots, we feel. Each song projects a feeling which becomes impossible to match when the brain is busy sending and processing signals in anticipation of what is going to happen. This is the type of dancer looks as if dancing alone, or the couple that looks like 10 dancers simply because they have knowledge and the music is rich. They think, hey, musical layers, whoa, let me match it, yet look as alive as a bug splattered on the windshield. Oops, let me smile, yeap, that did it, I’m in tune with the music.

Teaching, overwhelmed with patterns and musical structure, utterly neglects feelings. I don't blame it, teaching to feel is rather difficult and a lacking attribute of the salsa scene today. How can someone who can’t feel, teach someone how to feel?

Examples are ample. The aesthetically driven society we’ve built teaches us to pursue a luxurious façade empty on the inside. In a nutshell, that’s what is mostly taught in classrooms across the salsa scene. Build a nice dance, don’t worry about the message just concentrate on hitting breaks and accents, then you’ll have musicality and Sabor.

Feeling the music and dancing with Sabor is in everyone’s mouth, yet reason is taught as the pathway to conquest. We’ve truly turned salsa into another product of the fast food nation. Everyone sells a product, advertises the reason why it should be bought, yet education about what’s being sold and purchased is absent. I rather watch the folks who get it than the many who stride for knowledge but don’t know what to do with it…

 

[memito]

Salcero,

I do agree that he had plenty of space to play with and no one was near him... my point really wasn't about this guy, but more of how some of his moves were very similar to larger guys I have seen on the dance scene.

My point is that there are a lot of small and older women on the dance scene and while I have absolutely no problems taking a close-line to the head from a fancy-dancy defensive lineman, many 100lb women just can't take that sort of hit. (And I know many women that have all sorts of black & blue marks or worse from such encounters.) So, when I see a guy that big taking up that much space (essentially almost the width of the dance floor at one point), it sends up a red flag - and I end up staying away from such dancers - which ironically sometimes gives them the impression that they "deserve" space simply b/c guys like me end up giving them stomping space.

Again, this isn't specificlaly directed at the guy in the video, but more of a general observation.

 

[noobster]

he also does what a lot of 250lb Tight End football player type salseros seem to do... that is, he takes over a good 1/4 of that entire dance floor with his moves and pattern work... It is this sort of dude that crashes his partner into your partner and then gives you the look of death like you were to blame (or at least should have know to get out of his way)...

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Anyone have a vid that illustrates any of the points being made such as the one above, or about guys focussing on turn patterns and being less in tune with the music that their female counterpart?

The guy in that video is definitely a dancy-type leader, which is cool - he looks good. I wouldn't say he's representative of the average NYC salsero. There are lots of guys who look like him, but there are also a lot of others. You are probably mentally blocking out the others because they aren't as interesting to watch. Also they rarely get filmed by iMambo, making it tough to locate vids of them.

In terms of connection and communication wrt musicality, I find it hard to tell whether this is happening from a video. I can't really see the faces of the dancers and the quality of the audio is awful so it's hard to reconstruct what the song was supposed to sound like or to tell whether the dancers' motion matches it.

Also you can't tell whether the dancer's style changes between partners if all you have is a single video with one partner. My observation was based on watching lots of guys I know dance with me and with others over time, and noticing that their characteristic styles are much less fluid than those of the women. Note that I wasn't saying men are inherently less musical than women. I said that 1) leading has more distractions from the music than following, and 2) followers are trained to listen to their partners, whereas leaders are trained to talk to theirs.

But in any case, the kind of thing I was talking about before is probably not something an observer would pick up on. When two dancers are trading an element of motion back and forth it's not always clear who came up with it unless you are one of the dancers involved.

 

[salcero2005]

Also they rarely get filmed by iMambo, making it tough to locate vids of them. .

My question was a general one and not directed specifically at you. There are a lot of videos on sites like YouTube where you could possibly verify the magnitude of the things that Edie spoke about like guys continuing a turn pattern after the song is finished. There are other sites with much better video and sound quality as well.

 

[salcero2005]

My point is that there are a lot of small and older women on the dance scene

I think a good lead would consider these factors and dance accordingly. :lol: