Festival and Travel Planner 2026

Chris_Yannick said:
We could then judge based on what our eyes see (balance, timing, posture, spatial awareness, body movement, groundedness, etc..) however, what each of us find attractive is again different.
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Certainly. The way our brain works is that we take all of it into account and then some. But we don’t consciously enumerate and rate dancers on each of those dimensions. Our brain is good at sizing it up as a function package. It can also quickly isolate if someone is particularly lacking in one of those dimensions. Part of it is also the result of longer experience in dancing and watching others.

Chris_Yannick said:
My presumption that there are more advanced followers than leaders stem from the idea that followers have to work on more technical aspects than leads in order to be thought of as 'good'.
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Didn’t I write it before. Followers can progress fast but then reach a plateau. Many get stuck there. It then takes an extra effort for the follower to make that final jump into being advanced follower.

For the leaders it is more of a steady climb.

At advanced level following is more challenging than leading. Technique alone doesn’t get you there.

Chris_Yannick said:
Whereas leaders can be wholly one-dimensional and just work on their patterns and are somehow advanced.
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That’s not my definition of advanced.
 
AguaDulce said:
I think we would all need to first agree on what constitutes a good or great lead/follow. Perhaps develop a criteria that we can all agree on. And lastly, maybe even as a bonus, come to an agreement on what qualifies as a good or great social dance.
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Let me try to take a crack at it without overcomplicating:

1 poor dancers: forever beginners or never get beyond advanced beginner level delete dancing for years.
2 above average: solid intermediate dancers. Do almost all things right.
3. Advanced: can change their dancing according to the partner or music. I didn’t say adapt, I said change and more specifically with their peers. Are better at dancing to the rhythm and melody. Always have that extra gear they can shift into easily.

Good dancers come from both #2 and #3. Not all #2 though.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
Whereas leaders can be wholly one-dimensional and just work on their patterns and are somehow advanced. This is what I usually see on the dance floor.
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This is an interesting take. Someone like Super Mario comes to mind. I'm not sure "advanced" means the same thing as a good or great salsa dancer, other than they may be good at the particular thing they have advanced in. Then there is the competition between having a deep inventory of turn patterns, having less with better execution, having a vast inventory and great execution, and the follows that don't really enjoy being locked into turn patterns
 
Just because a person is a talented dancer doesn't mean they're a good salsa dancer. I've seen people celebrate all kinds of stuff that isn't part of salsa social dancing

 
In the above definition, improver level was missed out which is where a lot of people will be, especially in a local social. Sprinkled in with some proper intermediate level dancers.
 
I remember when PISC used to be the hottest ticket on the circuit. If it wasn't for FB, I wouldn't even know its currently happening.
 
Offbeat said:
This usually isn’t the case in large scenes
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The principle is the same. Being content dancing in your local pond and thinking you're awesome is the same whether your scene is small or large.

Of course you have a much better chance of being awesome in a larger scene if that means being exposed to a lot more dancers and styles.

But attitude wise it's the same. A lot of people here who never travel believe all they need in dancing can be found locally. I don't even think that's a bad thing, but it also inflates their ego.

The ones who travel are more humble for sure.

This whole debate about advancedness is kind of silly. We're talking about a dance where people value completely different things depending on where you were born.
 
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AguaDulce said:
I'm not sure "advanced" means the same thing as a good or great salsa dancer, other than they may be good at the particular thing they have advanced in
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This is what I was hinting at. A lot of the time, what people think is advanced is actually just a kind of 'niche' dancing. People often conflate being advanced in one thing with being advanced.

If someone is advanced, at least qualify what they're advanced in.
 
MamboJazz said:
If we wouldn't know what "good" is we wouldn't do all this.
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Chris_Yannick said:
A lot of people wouldn't know what 'good' dancing is if it hit them on the head.
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I thought about it: yes, correct. You need to be a very experienced dancer yourself to evaluate others on a wider than local scale. That's why international dance judges are experienced dancers themselves.

Recently I ran into my inability to judge in another dance where I am still improver when I danced with a girl on a local WCS festival. She was quite good, better than I sure. Afterwards we talked a bit and she mentioned she was here as instructor, so I asked her name and googled her next day: man, she was a pro and youtube videos showed how great she is when she dances with equally good partners. Thing is I didn't even realize how good she is because I'm still too mediocre in WCS to feel the difference between "just better than I" and "very good".

On the other hand in salsa I notice very quickly how good someone is. At my second ever big festival (Budapest) I asked a random woman standing at the sideline (far from the DJ booth) - and after two eight-counts I knew she was a pro, although I didn't know her face. She was perfect in every little movement, I noticed and saw immediately. I remember I got nervous inside, I had danced with pros before but this came so unexpected. She responded without effort flawlessly to every move I was leading: my definition of "good".

So let's say you need experienced people to judge if others a "good". In this forum most are internationally experienced longtime dancers, so I'd say most can judge it quite well.
 
Offbeat said:
Is there a lack of good leaders now? can’t you get at least 5-6 good dances in a night which are of as good quality as ‘celebrity’ dances ?
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Really depends where you dance. I'm in a smaller low level scene, and some events yeah it's basically only the 'celebrities' who are at a decent level. Bigger congresses or somewhere like London with a high level social scene, much better.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
Abvanced leads are rare.
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Incredibly rare IME.

I'd also add, sometimes you need to be at that higher level yourself to really know who is actually advanced Vs who looks advanced.

I was showing some videos of me & two of my lead friends dancing. My non dancing friend chose the opposite to me for who looked the 'best' lead. But to me it was night & day, both are good leads but one is far, far more experienced and truly advanced than the other and I can feel it. But that feeling probably either doesn't show on video, or isn't as obvious to less experienced dancers.
I'd say even observing in person on the dancefloor you'll miss a lot, you can only truly judge if you dance with them yourself.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
A lot of people wouldn't know what 'good' dancing is if it hit them on the head. Many local scenes are proof of that. They mostly are full of sucky dancers, but think they're awesome.

Then people like us want more because we realize there is more than just our pond.

We are outliers. We share similar ideas about what makes a good dance.
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This dance seems to be going viral. Is this a good salsa social dance? If so, why?

 
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