I found it interesting that someone said "I regularly watch great or good follows ask leads technically beneath their respective levels,"
Festival and Travel Planner 2026
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desconocida
Son
Yeah, sorry, but I will, in turn, have to completely disagree with most of your points here. Let's start with the most obvious one: you are completely wrong about Adolfo and maybe this is exactly why you do not understand the points I am making. Adolfo is an incredible lead and I know a few very good, experienced follows who had some of their best dances of all times with him. I haven't danced with him in over ten years (as I was out of the scene for a good part of those) but I have danced numerous times with him around 2010-2015 or so and you don't want to dance with him because of his name or status, you want to dance with him because it's an amazing experience: his lead is both, super soft and extremely precise which makes it absolutely natural for the follow to follow (sorry for the tautology) seemingly super complex patterns which most other leads wouldn't be able to lead. And yes, it's fun! Needless to say that he's incredibly musical, for me, personally, his interpretation of the songs always aligned with what I felt like dancing in that very moment - and that's a very important point for me, personally. On top of that, at least back then he was very sweet in his entire demeanour. I think nowadays his energy is somewhat different but he's still very approachable. That's why, if you experienced that before, you'd absolutely want to dance with him again. I couldn't care les whether he "disappears" (though I don't agree here, neither).I come from a scene which is very lead heavy. Sometimes it can be difficult to get dance with an above average followers. We also get some really good followers from different parts of the world passing through. Locally we have some really good leaders. They don’t travel. If and when they do, they definitely catch attention of best followers in the room.
Frankly there are plenty below average to average leaders who do the chasing. It is very obvious. While the better leaders are more chill and dance with many followers around the room. You can hardly call that snobbish
At the festivals in Europe, if you are dancing long enough (several hours a night), you will get enough dances with very good followers including known names. More than half the sought after followers that I danced with (when in Europe), I had absolutely no idea who they were. Sure they are very good dancers and I enjoyed dancing with them. But it was only after the fact that I realized that they were someone popular or famous within the salsa festival world. There are many times I will dance with someone such may be only once in three nights because there is too much demand on their time. But then there are some I would dance each night once. There are many dances I haven’t had because I refuse to be even a tiny bit aggressive.
Having danced in fair number of European festivals I totally disagree that really good leaders in 70% of cases happened to the invited celebrities/stars of the universe of salsa festivals. There are many really good leaders in Europe I have seen who either weren’t yet discovered by likes of Star mambo or below the radar. Let me illustrate with an example that you might be able to relate. Adolfo as good a dancer he is, when social dancing disappears among the crowd - by which I mean his social dancing doesn’t stand out and he social dancing is no different than some other good leader. Unlike some known suspects on social dance floor I never seen him don anything flashy. There have been times he is dancing next to me and I had to do a double take. From this guy looks like Adolfo to, ohh it is him. Likewise I seen some do flashy moves not knowing who they are and cursing them under my breath for taking up dancing, dancing big, complicated moves, etc only to discover later (almost always through SF when someone posts videos) it was some big name.
Lastly, if I was a follower I would have no interest in dancing with some of the big names just because of the way they dance. Honestly I don’t understand the “thrill” of wanting an experience of dancing with a big name, knowing well they might be rough or strong arm the follower.
I don’t think there is anything wrong in wanting to dance with a big name. But if there is going to be incompatibility (stylistic clash), why bother.
P.S.- it is very rare to witness a good follower ask any lead (other than a celebrity).
Your last sentence - I have no idea what scene you're basing this observation on, but it sounds like you mean it in general terms, not just for your scene, and well, you're absolutely wrong. I started salsa in 2005 and have been traveling within the Western European scene enough to know a whole lot of other follows from Germany, Netherlands, Poland, Russia, Estonia, or Belgium, for example. While there sure are differences in our styles and abilities, most of those who have been dancing similarly long or at least 10+ years, definitely qualify as "very good follows". Most are either teaching or have taught at some point. ALL of us are asking on a regular basis - and not just celebrities but also other regulars from the scene. We'll actively recommend great leads to each other all the time if those are likely to fly under the radar because they aren't celebrities (clearly, with the understanding that the other will ask said lead, too). This excludes the 20-something 'it-girls', for obvious reasons, but this is not exactly the demographic I know and am referring to here.
Maybe you just happened to travel to destinations where things are different, I have never been to the DH events in Prague or Budapest, but even there I heard from plenty of follows that they mainly had really good dances when they did the asking, even those who I know for a fact are really, really good. Maybe local events in Italy - or more precisely in Milan and Rome - are different, as they have some great instruction concentrated in those metropoles. I know for a fact that all girls from farther east are very much used to doing the asking because their scenes are heavily skewed towards follows as well. Paris is, to the best of my knowledge, also a bit of an outlier and maybe you can do well there as a follow without much asking.
Regarding stylistic clashes issue: who said we would ask such people? Maybe this is where the misunderstanding lies: we do not want to dance with names, we want to recreate a certain magic which we know is attainable. I'd never ask Terry because I know this is not my cup of tea. Again, if you've been in the game long enough, you can predict with pretty high accuracy how much you can potentially enjoy dancing with someone by watching them dance with others. Maybe it doesn't work vice versa as a follow's qualities are somewhat less observable than a lead's... I can think of only two times (with not even that well-known artists), where I was wrong and in retrospect really wished I hadn't asked them because there was a complete mismatch (one was really rough and the other seemed to never have learnt to social dance, only to perform). But, again, I haven't asked them because I knew their name but because I observed them dance with other follows and thought that looked promising.
It depends on the event, clearly, but most of the time the answer is no. My friend (who's been in the scene even a little longer than I) and I recently tried to count all the amazing leads in our country who are not well-known artists (those would really only be Lenin from Genesis & Lenin who isn't as much of a household name, I guess, but a lovely lead. Edson & Juan who are somewhat new to the artist circus but very much up-and-coming and super fun to dance with and, if one enjoys the style, Anichi and his brother Pablo - those are it for a country of 80 million). And guess what - we couldn't even come up with ten names for the "great" category. The next tier of "really good leads" with whom one still enjoys dancing - most of the time - would possibly yield another 20-30 if I extrapolate a little from some of the bigger scenes I am familiar with (I don't think I could personally come up with 20 names). And sure, we do not know absolutely everybody, but it's ultimately a small enough of a scene that if you've been around long enough, you kind of have a good idea. Now, a natural question would be, of course, if the leads did such a ranking, where we would end up tier-wise and whether it's even justified that we would, ideally, like dances with really good to great leads. I, obviously, cannot attest to that. But, interestingly enough, whenever I am discussing leads with other ladies (yes, we do do that on quite a regular basis. Especially when sitting on that stage
but also driving back from parties, for example a lot of analysis is happening) our assessments are very, very similar. Even when we might have different stylistic preferences, we almost always flag the same issues as uncomfortable and notice the same traits that we truly enjoy about someone's leading. So it's ultimately somewhat objective and most of all about comfort and flow, not about someone's movement quality and shines repertoire.Netherlands, while being much smaller, has a much higher number of good to great leads and last year I managed to have at least 10 or 15 lovely dances at a local party without any of the big names present and with maybe about 20% of me doing the asking, but they also have more good follows, so you'd still be inclined to ask if you want to dance with specific people.
desconocida
Son
It was me, I said it. And I absolutely stand by this statement. I am not a super regular at events, but last year I think I've been to something like 6 congresses (in addition to smaller events). I usually sit down or stand somewhere further in the back between dances as I'd rather observe and do the asking when I feel like music and dance partner availability align, and I chat a lot - mainly to other follows (since the leads are dancing, duh) - and I have both, visual as well as stated confirmation for this observation. Those I talk to are typically other follows in their 30s or 40s who've been around for 10+ years and to whom salsa is really important - so they have put considerable effort into honing their craft, most have taught at least at some point themselves, and as far as observable characteristics go, they definitely qualify as good to great follows. Even those who really dislike asking still do ask because otherwise they will end up with mainly crappy dances and often enough they will ask "down", if one wishes to call it that, if they have reasons to assume that the dance will be pleasant enough - the lead looks smooth and musical enough. Simultaneously, I've been to events where I saw several leads from my (former) local scene who are really not that good have the time of their life (as confirmed by them themselves, in some cases) because they have been asked throughout the entire night, often enough by follows who are clearly on a higher level than them (not to the extent that the follow was a super pro and the lead a complete beginner, but still).
desconocida
Son
Why does being consistently in the scene without breaks even matter? It's kind of a lot like riding a bike: if you've mastered the main techniques as a follow it doesn't really matter if you've been out of the scene for some years, usually about half a year- year will suffice to get back to the same level of following. Faster for those who managed to stay in great shape otherwise, slower for those who didn't (as, really, stamina and muscular strength in relevant areas are the biggest limiting factors for responsiveness, balance, and speed).
Also, I happen to know about as many follows as leads to whom this consistency, if your stricter definition, applies, and if we apply my criteria, I know more follows. Maybe the driving factor for our mutually excluding observations is some sort of availability bias? I happen to get into actual conversations with women more easily than with men and after every event I attend there are probably about 2-3 new connections with women for every man, I am much more likely to start following a 'random' woman on insta with whom I had a random chat than some guy, so I may be more likely to remember them. Guys I'll mostly only remember if we shared a really outstanding dance.
Hmm. Since followers generally outnumber leads in Europe, I have a difficult time believing that there are more advanced leads than follows.
I would even say it's a near statistical impossibility.
And even those advanced leads often lack some basics skills whereas advanced followers tend to be more well rounded and technically sound because they have to be.
Good leads don't have to do alot outside of leading to be considered advanced.
Not doubting what you stated. I just found it interesting. I've been to events where just about everyone seemed like an "advanced dancer" so I was trying to think of where I could see this playing out. Being a male lead, I most likely get different information than you and I obviously don't consistently look at things from the other side.
As far as selecting, I guess everyone has their preferences on what appeals to them. You might be a "good salsa dancer" but just not what the other person is looking for. I've danced with followers that like a more forceful lead and others that seem like they want to do contact improvisation or miming. Seen guys get asked all the time that follows have told me are rough and might strike them inadvertently while executing a pattern.
A lot of times it's about who you made a connection with, often off the dance floor, that makes a person peg you as someone they enjoy dancing with on a consistent basis. With others, you might think it was a great dance while they thought it was an average or not so great dance. Then, as you said, people talk. Someone might be spreading a message about you positive or negative. A lot of factors can play into the selection process, besides just the ratio of leads to follows.
I never said he wasn’t a good lead. You are actually making my argument for me. I said he is not flashy. If you watch the crowd he doesn’t stand out. But as you said the experience of dancing with him is incredible. Adolfo’s social dancing is simple. It isn’t complicated. And that was my whole point. If a follower didn’t know him or had never heard of him and only watched him dance in the crowd, say next to several of the other current “celebrity” darlings, I doubt they would say “oh he is a great lead, I rather ask him than the other big names”. Similarly there are really good leaders (in Europe) who aren’t household names. When it comes to social dancing I don’t think the celebrities are necessary over and above other advanced leaders.
I mentioned clearly that it is based on dancing at European festivals (and in USA as well as local scene). I haven’t danced in Europe at non-festivals except occasionally in Paris (the small sample size doesn’t count).
If I had to quote you “because it is, a lot of the time, a great experience, and if not that, a way to challenge yourself, would be kinda silly to pretend like that's beneath us”, I assume bolded part refers to the challenge knowing stylistic difference and incompatibility but still wanting that dance simply because the dancer is a celebrity. And my underlying argument is that if such a lead was not a known name/face, then no good follower would usually ask or want a challenge to dance (knowing stylistic differences).
It does work most of the time.
Because those who aren’t consistent, have stopped or are in midst of long break aren’t available. If more women than men do not last as long, naturally good followers will be in shortage.
I agree. That’s why I have often mentioned how good experience of dancing with someone who re-appeared after a gap of 5 or 10 years of not dancing. Not only that, also compared them to current followers and what I find lacking in the current generation (as a general trend because there are always enough exceptions).
Let’s take a concrete example. At the festivals how many good followers over 40 or 45 are there compared to the good leaders in similar age range. Usually if a follower above 45 is good she likely has 7-10 years of dancing experience. The same goes for the leaders too. Most people over 45 aren’t as good if they only started dancing 5 or 6 years prior. On the other hand younger dancers (20s and 30s) become good faster. I have danced with enough “delight to dance with” followers whose dance experience is between a year to five years, but they invariably happen to be in 20s and 30s. Similarly the leaders in 20s and 30s climb the social (dancing) ladder far faster than a man starting dancing in 40s. As to why is a separate topic of itself.
Perhaps you are conflating quantity with quality.
In general during the earlier part of the night there used to be to be more followers. During the last two hours either sort of balanced or more men.
But we are talking of only the good dancers. Moscow based festivals are the only ones where good followers outnumbered good leaders by 3:1 if not more. At El Sol which used to be huge, at the advanced dancer levels it used to be balanced or slightly more advanced men. But a notch below that tier, the women outnumbered men. At Paris Congress and pre-parties every time - good leaders were more than good followers. At Magic also good leaders slightly more than good followers. By good I mean top ten percentile of the dancers.
One way to tell is how many good followers are not dancing or are available a minute after song has started. Do the same for the good leaders. Exclude those on breaks or selecting not to dance that song.
This.
A different topic - things other than pure skill factors into what makes people consistently ask their targets. Often it is a comfort zone of knowing the person and skill is a bonus.
No, I disagree already with this starting sentence. We even had a thread here titled "Why do men come early?" And yes, it was about dancing.
This measuring stick isn't very reliable since it's starting to overlap with popularity.
And I'm also starting to think our definition of good leader may be different. If I take a quick survey of dancers in random dance videos, more often I see plenty of advanced followers but few leaders of the same caliber.
Abvanced leads are rare.
Give me 10 names of good leaders and I can give you names of 10 followers who are better.
But that would also be my opinion.
In all my years dancing, the times I've seen more advanced leaders than followers on the dance floor has been few.
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I think we would all need to first agree on what constitutes a good or great lead/follow. Perhaps develop a criteria that we can all agree on. And lastly, maybe even as a bonus, come to an agreement on what qualifies as a good or great social dance.
I heard people say, for example, that Sophia is a very good follow and have noted that she is very light as one reason why. I'm sure there are other specific traits or characteristics that one can point to.
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I don't think that would be possible. We all have our own criteria for what makes a good leader/follower. And it gets even more subjective when we talk about what qualifies as a great dance.
Claiming someone 'feels' great to dance with is just not a quantifiable metric that can be assessed.
We could then judge based on what our eyes see (balance, timing, posture, spatial awareness, body movement, groundedness, etc..) however, what each of us find attractive is again different.
So we are back to square one.
My presumption that there are more advanced followers than leaders stem from the idea that followers have to work on more technical aspects than leads in order to be thought of as 'good'. Whereas leaders can be wholly one-dimensional and just work on their patterns and are somehow advanced. This is what I usually see on the dance floor.
If lightness is a trait of a good dancer, then she's not unique in that regard. Plenty of followers are light.
Leaders have the benefit of having their lead enhanced while dancing with an excellent follower. Even ordinary leads can look more advanced than they really are.
Though I can't say the same if roles were reversed. Can a great lead pull up a below average or average follower to their level and make them look great? If so, how often does that happen?
So I'm back to wondering where all these great leads are in plentiful supply that would dwarf their follower counterparts.
This is a sham discussion here: we all spend money and time to go to festivals because there we meet more of the "good" dancers than at home - and we nearly all go there, so seemingly we agree the dancers there are mostly "good". Afterwards we write a report here if we had "good" dances. If we wouldn't know what "good" is we wouldn't do all this.
A lot of people wouldn't know what 'good' dancing is if it hit them on the head. Many local scenes are proof of that. They mostly are full of sucky dancers, but think they're awesome.
Then people like us want more because we realize there is more than just our pond.
We are outliers. We share similar ideas about what makes a good dance.
Have we danced in last 10 years?
Actually I wrote down my opinion way back when for Richie:
For advanced leads, I'm additionally looking for storytelling, safety, security (this is kinda important responsibility for both partners, but lead has more power), stability.
I can’t speak for others. But by observing you can tell a really good dancer. You can end up being more right than wrong.
There have been times (at festivals) where I have recommended some random no-name leader to my follower friends. And they later are either gushing about the dance or telling how good of leader he was to dance. Similarly I also heard stories about being disappointed with a dance with celebrities. I would say about 50% of dances are reported as disappointing. That is not surprising to me. Statistically that is more what I would expect.
It is the same with guys recommending guys about a certain follower. The word can spread pretty fast if a follower is new to the scene or festival.
There have been times (at festivals) where I have recommended some random no-name leader to my follower friends. And they later are either gushing about the dance or telling how good of leader he was to dance. Similarly I also heard stories about being disappointed with a dance with celebrities. I would say about 50% of dances are reported as disappointing. That is not surprising to me. Statistically that is more what I would expect.
It is the same with guys recommending guys about a certain follower. The word can spread pretty fast if a follower is new to the scene or festival.