Etymology of the term contra tiempo, why contra tiempo = on2

terence said:
It's not about the sequence but the beat on which the break occurs. As I previously stated, the "1" is dominant ( the downbeat ) so one would think that this would be the point to use for breaks.. but... the clave says other wise.. ergo, contra tiempo..I think it is important to make this point; The most important point is keeping to the same break point (1,2, or 3 ) consistent thruout the dance, in other words STAY on time. I'm not saying that one cannot change from 1 to 2 during the course of a song if warranted .
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Can the contratiempo secuence be defined as a cumbia On2 secuence in which the cumbia "step in place" has been replaced with a "side step"?

That video is the first in which I have finally seen someone doing counting on contratiempo.

Contratiempo dancers typically say, they are not dancing On1 neither On2.
 
granrey said:
Can the contratiempo secuence be defined as a cumbia On2 secuence in which the cumbia "step in place" has been replaced with a "side step"?
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…. Yep, the Cumbia basic is identical ( but syncopated ) .IF breaking behind . a side step is just a side step common to many dances .
 
My teacher made me restart over and over agan if my back rock was as big as it the video lol. Not saying she is right exclusively but that is how she learned from an old man in Santiago de Cuba.
 
terence said:
…. Yep, the Cumbia basic is identical ( but syncopated ) .IF breaking behind . a side step is just a side step common to many dances .
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Awesome. One task crossed out my salsa to do list.

Now a message to the self entitled contratiempo people:

"You are just dancing On2 Cumbia with a fancy step" lol
 
Latinjazz said:
It’s exactly the other way round, but you probably know that.
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Well, Kind of.....but you know what I mean when you see people talking about On1 vs On2. You get contratiempo people saying they are dancing something different like in another realm.

Still I feel pretty happy to finally understand the secuence.

The funny thing is I saw this sequence being done by two colombian ladies dancing together last year. The thing is I was having challenges figuring it out because colombians do lots of different sequences based on Cumbia with few or no turns.

These two ladies were switching on different steps. I would have never call this contratiempo.


For instance this is supposed to be contratiempo bachata which can be done very similar in salsa. I thought contratiempo in salsa should be similar to this.

 
granrey said:
Awesome. One task crossed out my salsa to do list.

Now a message to the self entitled contratiempo people:

"You are just dancing On2 Cumbia with a fancy step" lol
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Modern Cumbia steps are most probably salsa/casino steps danced to cumbia music. Traditional Cumbia dances are very different than the modern cumbia we see in videos. Modern cumbia looks like a continuous setenta (70) move in rueda. The same could be done with vallenato or any other dance with 4 beats in a bar (or close to it - you can even do it in cha).
 
granrey said:
Can the contratiempo secuence be defined as a cumbia On2 secuence in which the cumbia "step in place" has been replaced with a "side step"?

That video is the first in which I have finally seen someone doing counting on contratiempo.

Contratiempo dancers typically say, they are not dancing On1 neither On2.
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It is not just hold on 1. The hip action on 1 is important.
 
terence said:
As I previously stated, the "1" is dominant ( the downbeat ) so one would think that this would be the point to use for breaks.. but... the clave says other wise.. ergo, contra tiempo. .
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Hold on a second, I thought the whole point in the other thread was that the clave plays no role on whether one should dance tiempo or contratiempo.
 
terence said:
I was speaking about direction IF clave matters ( to many, it does not ).
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I understand, but let us suppose that it does matter to the dancer. Would following the clave always lead to dancing contratiempo or could a specific clave lead the dancer to dancing tiempo?
 
It’s a difficult question, because the Clave is already a consequence of the circular rhythmics that are implied in any kind of african influenced music.
The concept is to tie rhythms together around the 1, so you have grooves that “never want to stop”.
In Son these things are more present, so there is more influence of “the clave” (if you want to use it as a short term for that)
As soon as the bells and the brass sections come in, you have also strong “1” moments (exactly like in old jazz), so the choice starts about where to dance.
It’s also more present in Son than in older styles like Danzon or Bolero.
So there is not a short or generic answer for this.
 
granrey said:
Well, Kind of.....but you know what I mean when you see people talking about On1 vs On2. You get contratiempo people saying they are dancing something different like in another realm.
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Honestly, I only hear the word contratiempo when people want to express “on 2” in Spanish, or when Cubans speak about dancing their music on 2 - and I associate it more to Casino. Don’t remember Cubans talking about dancing son “a contratiempo”, it was just Son.
But as @terence stated, there seems to be Son danced on 1, too - and he knows more about this than me.
I didn’t get really deep into Son dancewise as my interest was more into Casino when I used to go to Cuba regularly.
 
Live2dance said:
I understand, but let us suppose that it does matter to the dancer. Would following the clave always lead to dancing contratiempo or could a specific clave lead the dancer to dancing tiempo?
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The simple answer is ; With 1 being the dominant beat then the majority ( as seen in many socials ) tend to break on 1. In metro areas, the opportunity for exploring other options exist NYC being a classic eg where 2 is very commonplace. Having danced in heavily populated latin areas in latino clubs, I can tell you the majority break on 1. I can remember only once was I asked if I would break on 2 .. As to tiempo , to me I take this literally to mean "On time " so whether its 1 or 2 I will be on time but just expressing a different rhythmic pattern. . Here's an old teaching question.. IF you were watching a couple dance a fwd/back basic thru a sound proof glass window, are you able to tell what beat they using for their breaks ? or if they are off time ?.. And, I believe we have exhausted this subject.. do what makes you happy !nuff said
 
Latinjazz said:
Honestly, I only hear the word contratiempo when people want to express “on 2” in Spanish, or when Cubans speak about dancing their music on 2 - and I associate it more to Casino. Don’t remember Cubans talking about dancing son “a contratiempo”, it was just Son.
But as @terence stated, there seems to be Son danced on 1, too - and he knows more about this than me.
I didn’t get really deep into Son dancewise as my interest was more into Casino when I used to go to Cuba regularly.
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I associate it with son and casino. I find it hard to associate with salsa where the concept of breaking on 1 or 2 (or any count) is much simpler and clear cut. Applying the casino or son concept of tiempo and contratiempo to salsa leads to all the confusing posts where people seem to be struggling to harmonize idea of tiempo/contratiempo with on1/on2.

I feel on1/on2 is about the beat on which you break the direction. But the forward/back basic structure of salsa lends itself to that simple definition easily.

Trying to find a neat equivalency between the two such that it can be justified to say on1 = tiempo and on2 = contratiempo is not helpful. They are more of parallel concepts rather than being the same, because they apply to different dance structures. At best they are nearly the same but that is still not same as the same :D

There is no straight equivalency between tiempo/contratiempo and on1/on2 based on defining the beats and stepping. Adding clave to that variable, invariably creates more mess and confusion :P
 
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Latinjazz said:
Honestly, I only hear the word contratiempo when people want to express “on 2” in Spanish, or when Cubans speak about dancing their music on 2 - and I associate it more to Casino. Don’t remember Cubans talking about dancing son “a contratiempo”, it was just Son.
But as @terence stated, there seems to be Son danced on 1, too - and he knows more about this than me.
I didn’t get really deep into Son dancewise as my interest was more into Casino when I used to go to Cuba regularly.
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I mean here on these forums. On the dance floor I dont notice anything unless the occasional On2 people with their "On2 tshirts" lol.
 
granrey said:
I mean here on these forums. On the dance floor I dont notice anything unless the occasional On2 people with their "On2 tshirts" lol.
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I didn't notice fancy "a contratiempo" SF members and where I live I don't know people with these T-shirts, but I believe you both things exist. Where I live, "on 2" dancers would be dressed in NASA outfit - this doesn't exist here, except Cubans or dance teachers. Linear on 2 seems to be more present in America or in other parts of Europe.
 
For instance, this guy says: "it's not exactly On1, neither On2 but on the rhythm"

Someone put a comment on his video and he repeated the quote above .

Sometimes, I wonder if there are different things called contratiempo.

 
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