Etymology of the term contra tiempo, why contra tiempo = on2

wol said:
Ok, to illustrate how I understand it I dig out the old topic about famous Oliver and Alien dance: https://www.salsaforums.com/threads/weird-timing.36986/
There Sabrosura and others corrected me, that dance is contrtiempo, not on2, if I remember correctly. It is obvious, that they break (change direction) on2 (at least in linear parts of the dance), so, by my definition it is on2 dance. Question was if they step on 8 or on 1. If they step on 8, by my definition it is on2 contratiempo (or just contratiemo), if they step on 1, it is regular on2 (on2 tiempo). Terence may be can comment how he would label this dance style. May be it was in this thread, I do not have time to reread it right now ...
Thee is a lot of other info on timing in this thread, I should definitely reread it myself :)
Click to expand...

For me
On1 123 567 with break on 1
On2 Power 2 234 678 with break on 2
On2 ETon2 123 567 with break on 2

Tiempo stepping 3 hip action 4 and break on 1
Contratiempo stepping 4 hip action 1 and break on 2.
But my understanding now is also (though I might be over simplifying this)
Tiempo stepping action on 1
Contra tiempo no stepping action on 1
 
Emphasis on 8: hear and feel the koongkoonk (4, 4& and 8, 8&). That is when you move. Intead of focusING your breaks tepid on the 1 or the 2 (whatever count you dance) being the important step to set the timing, use the 8, 8&. It feels very different. Feels grear for some some somgs, good for others and cappy for yet others still.
 
PR2 is exactly like On1 but one beat ahead. Cubans in Havana normally dance on1. Maybe they called PR2 contratiempo as opposed to the conventional on1. ETon2 to my knowledge is not danced or even heard of in Cuba. Could be that's all there's to it and looking for deeper meaning is pointless.
 
salsero.dance said:
PR2 is exactly like On1 but one beat ahead. Cubans in Havana normally dance on1. Maybe they called PR2 contratiempo as opposed to the conventional on1. ETon2 to my knowledge is not danced or even heard of in Cuba. Could be that's all there's to it and looking for deeper meaning is pointless.
Click to expand...

PR2? Do you mean P2? If so then you're more or less correct with the above, although in P2 a lot of leads break back instead of forwards on 2 - so in that respect it is not 'exactly like on 1 but one beat ahead'. Also I believe P2 came directly from Cuba, and contratiempo was far more common in Cuba back in the late 40s/early 50s, when US mambo dance came into being, than it is now.

I strongly suspect you are correct that ET2 timing has never had any presence in Cuba.
 
salsero.dance said:
Reversed P2 would be P6.
Click to expand...

My point is that, from my observations, for many P2 dancers there is/was just 2,3,4 or QQS, and what you would term P6 is to them just as much P2 or mambo timing as the lead breaking forwards on 2 is. In fact I have never seen the term P6 used. Whereas I have seen the term on 5 used and I have seen very few on 1 leads who don't distinguish between the 1 and the 5.
 
salsero.dance said:
PR (Puerto Rican) 2, Power 2, Classic Mambo, three different names for the same timing.
Click to expand...

P2 does exist in PR (I have a salsa instruction DVD from PR that uses P2 timing) however PR2 generally refers to a different type of timing (essentially it's ET2 reversed) that used to be common in PR.
 
DJ Yuca said:
I strongly suspect you are correct that ET2 timing has never had any presence in Cuba.
Click to expand...

I believe ET2 is either uniquely ET creation or someone like chain schools were teaching it and that is where ET borrowed it from(?) Challenge back in those days was no systemic way to teach street style salsa. ET was looking for method better than trial and error to help new dancers dance street style salsa. The street dancers jeered at those dancing salsa like it was taught in ballroom studios or chain schools at that time. Perhaps rightfully so. They extended same contempt to those learning from ET and few others who started teaching street style salsa. But better and more dancers started coming out of street style classes. It went from being ethnic cultural practice to a secular enthusiast hobby. Was there ET2 equivalent version in 50s and 60s? If ET2 became dominant after he started to teach it in 80s, it will be very surprising for it to make way to Cuba. You underestimate the effect of USA embargo with very restricted traveling. Most people who travel to Cuba are from Florida where the Miami version of Casino was more prevalent. Music easily spreads across borders. For dancing to spread, people have to travel.

I am curious how much of Mambo is left in Cuba as a social dance. I haven't heard anyone say or seen videos of Mambo dancing in Cuba after 70s. I could be wrong but is Mambo socially danced, even as a niche in Cuba since 70s?

I am not clear after son, what is Cuba's influence on Mambo as a dance.
 
DJ Yuca said:
PR2? Do you mean P2? If so then you're more or less correct with the above, although in P2 a lot of leads break back instead of forwards on 2
Click to expand...

Do these P2 leads start by breaking back on2 or they start by breaking forward on 6? Speaking to a few old timers who learnt on the streets of NY, they all claim to start by breaking forward (on 2). I thought that was one of the distinguish characterstics on P2 vs ET2 - starting with forward break vs back break.

I am trying to think of another partner dance that starts with lead stepping back. WCS comes to mind, when you start with a side pass but isn't strictly starting by stepping back and WCS typically starts side to side.
 
Offbeat said:
I believe ET2 is either uniquely ET creation or someone like chain schools were teaching it and that is where ET borrowed it from(?)
Click to expand...
ET (not the
tenor.gif
) himself said he learned the system from a lady ballroom instructor who took him under her wing when he was a raw dancer.
 
salsero.dance said:
ET (not the
tenor.gif
) himself said he learned the system from a lady ballroom instructor who took him under her wing when he was a raw dancer.
Click to expand...

I heard ET once talk about that lady helping him with a system or framework for teaching. ET started dancing very early in teens as a NYurican. By his own telling he learned it through trial and error watching other greats from his neighborhood and NYC. I have heard him recount the trial and error part twice in person to me and a few other dancers, talking after one of his workshops. As a street dancer, I don't think ET learnt salsa in ballroom studio or from ballroom instructor. What he learnt was how ballroom taught dancing and how it could be applied to teaching street style salsa.

You can't learn how to perform or compete from a pure street dancer (street dancing is anti-thesis of performing). Ballroom coaches are 100x better at teaching how to compete or perform.
 
Offbeat said:
Do these P2 leads start by breaking back on2 or they start by breaking forward on 6? Speaking to a few old timers who learnt on the streets of NY, they all claim to start by breaking forward (on 2). I thought that was one of the distinguish characterstics on P2 vs ET2 - starting with forward break vs back break.
Click to expand...

Some start by breaking back on 2. Others start breaking forwards then switch during the song after going into shines i.e. for them there is no difference between the 2 and the 6. Breaking back on 2 is definitely not exclusive to ET2.
 
Offbeat said:
You underestimate the effect of USA embargo with very restricted traveling. Most people who travel to Cuba are from Florida where the Miami version of Casino was more prevalent. Music easily spreads across borders. For dancing to spread, people have to travel.
Click to expand...

How do you work out that I am underestimating the effect of the embargo? I specifically said that ET2 timing doesn't exist in Cuba. (Not necessarily because of the embargo though - imo ET2 timing just wouldn't work with casino.)

Offbeat said:
I am curious how much of Mambo is left in Cuba as a social dance. I haven't heard anyone say or seen videos of Mambo dancing in Cuba after 70s. I could be wrong but is Mambo socially danced, even as a niche in Cuba since 70s?
Click to expand...

Even back in the mambo era, I think mambo in Cuba was just a performance dance. So even back then it wasn't socially danced. What videos of mambo dancing in Cuba have you seen? I don't know of any.

Offbeat said:
I am not clear after son, what is Cuba's influence on Mambo as a dance.
Click to expand...

Cuba's influence on US mambo dance was in providing the musical structure and the on 2 timing. Maybe some of the absolute basics of the dance also come from son cubano or Cuban mambo.
 
salsero.dance said:
What does emphasis look like? Is it something done with the upper body or stomping the foot? Does emphasis always happen together with/at the same moment as a step, or can it be a syncopation?
Click to expand...
I would say that the emphasis is more with the movement in the upper body than in the feet. Check out this video. Obviously the dancers already know how to dance son, but they act like they don't and are asking questions a student might ask. He's having them start on the 2-side of the clave always. This is Cuban-style teaching without counting the beats. The ´kind iof stuff I got when I was learning. But our teacher had us start on the third strike of the 3 side.

Also here is the band dancing contratiempo at the beginning of the song ans switching to a tiempo at the montuno. Happens all the time at Cuban concerts.
Singers at this time:
Haila Mompie
Tania Pantoja
Aldo Miranda
Alex Lara
 
DJ Yuca said:
How do you work out that I am underestimating the effect of the embargo? I specifically said that ET2 timing doesn't exist in Cuba. (Not necessarily because of the embargo though - imo ET2 timing just wouldn't work with casino.)



Even back in the mambo era, I think mambo in Cuba was just a performance dance. So even back then it wasn't socially danced. What videos of mambo dancing in Cuba have you seen? I don't know of any.



Cuba's influence on US mambo dance was in providing the musical structure and the on 2 timing. Maybe some of the absolute basics of the dance also come from son cubano or Cuban mambo.
Click to expand...
One of the Son basics is the "Salsa basic" (from what I've seen a's slightly modified in BR int' Rumba). It's Sqq (if 8 is your starting point). Cuban mamBo basic has the taps (lack of better term).
 
Offbeat said:
I believe ET2 is either uniquely ET creation or someone like chain schools were teaching it and that is where ET borrowed it from(?) ?
Click to expand...
… " Borrowed " is correct. The only change he made was stepping back instead of side to begin ( actually, side represents the same structure as Bolero ). They still use the same method in the AM studios
 
terence said:
… " Borrowed " is correct. The only change he made was stepping back instead of side to begin ( actually, side represents the same structure as Bolero ). They still use the same method in the AM studios
Click to expand...
A tidbit I forgot. I saw your name in the notification and put flack jacket on after remembering I mention int' BR rumba.
 
wol said:
How can son be danced on1 or on2, if there is no real breaks. Son, I assume, could be danced tempo on contra tiempo, but all cuban teachers I have met swear it is always danced contra tiempo (8pause23).
Yes, I have a lot to say, when clean definitions in my head are messed up with wierd mix, which is used on SF :D Why would enyone want to confuse step timing to mix it with breaks (which are really relevant for small subset of salsa realated dances e.g. linear) producing inconsistand definitions?
Ok, ok, I will shut up. Everybody is allowed to make up their own stuff, I do not have to like it or use it :)
Click to expand...
It is traditionally accepted to commence to the right on the last hit of the Clave's 3-side.

I.E: Clave goes: [2-3] [5, 6.5, 8] -

But if it is a 3:2 Clave: [1, 2.5, 4] [6-7] - then you step right on the 4-pause-5-6...

-One should consider the Tumbau Rhythm was only added to Son in mid 90-s, so Clave might have played a major role in guiding a dancer...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top