The problem with street harassment is that there are not very many good alternatives. Usually women either 1) ignore or 2) react angrily. Both of these run the risk of irritating the harasser and causing him to escalate. Never ever ever had I seen a harasser apologize before I tried the Five-Secrets approach.
Dance Rejection
- Thread starter Irish-Salsa-dancer
- Start date
The problem with street harassment is that there are not very many good alternatives. Usually women either 1) ignore or 2) react angrily. Both of these run the risk of irritating the harasser and causing him to escalate. Never ever ever had I seen a harasser apologize before I tried the Five-Secrets approach.
Bostontraitor
Son
Continued...
When the salsa song finally came up, she decided to talk to another person. I walked pass her, picked up my stuff and left. Before anyone saying maybe she's waiting for me to ask. Nope, she wasn't.
The thing is, there’s no reason to allow someone to have a break from dancing since presumably,
a) that’s what they are there for
b) they are happy to dance every song
c) if they are tired, they can of course say no
In this context, I would have asked her to dance then and there when I had the chance. I’m not going to put the responsibility on her to come ask me given her popular status.
Would she have said no if you asked her when you had the chance? I would think not.
I know that when I am constantly asked to dance (it doesn’t happen often, but I did have the experience a few times), I will say yes to everyone unless I am near death. A friend of mine saw this and remarked to some of the askers “hey, give him a break!” but they just shook him off and said “Nah.. he doesn’t need a break”. They were right. If I really needed a break, I would have left the room or went to go hide in the broom closet. Catching me for a dance as soon as I’ve finished a dance is the best time to ask me for a dance.
This goes both ways. If there is a chance to ask a popular follow for a dance, then I take it because there won’t be another opportunity. I certainly won’t make it their responsibility to come find me.
Now, if someone did what you did to me, telling me that they’re essentially sorry for me and then said “but hey, after you’ve cooled down a bit, come find me. I will be waiting..” it doesn’t exactly inspire me to do so. It has the opposite effect. Why am I going to spend energy asking someone I hardly know when there are so many suitors lining up already?
A girl once said to me “hey, we didn’t dance tonight.. because YOU didn’t ask me to dance”. I didn’t ask her to dance the next time either. I’m not there to pander to your ego. I’m there to dance and have fun. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve projected sympathy onto someone else thinking it was the answer, when it wasn’t. It took me a LOOONG time to understand this about myself.
I’m not a psychologist, but after having breathed Salsa socials and having witnessed so much crap socially, these are my opinions on how people behave at Salsa events.
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dadada_486
Changui
That was bound to happen. Are you kiddin' The only time she would wait for you is if she knows you already smd wants to dance with you. I have had multiple occasions when we agreed to dance the next song, and neither of us do. You snooze, you lose.
Yes, this isn’t about etiquette or being gentlemanly. Unless you are a high value dancer yourself or this person is your friend, get in line.
From a follow point of view, if a guy I don't know came to me and told me that I look tired but he will give me the honor to dance with me if I rest a few songs (it sounded a little bit like this from description), I would consider it really weird and would just go dancing with other people interested to dance right away. Unless you are a good friend in that case I don't mind if people tell me they want to dance later, I remember them. I agree with what @Chris_Yannick said, if she was really feeling tired she could have said "no" or she would probably move away from the dancefloor.
Bostontraitor
Son
The reason everybody wanted to dance with her was the same reason that she was having trouble to say no to others. She's leaving town. I knew she's tired beccause her facial expression and a few times she wanted to walk off of the floor but other guys stopped her. She didn't say no to them, she had to dance straight for 1-2 hours without a break. When she finally walked to the corner I stood before I said those things to her, she didn't even walk right. I could only imagine dance straight for that long without a break. I said those things to her not because I am morally better than others, it's because I paid attention and I didn't feel like to drag someone obviously needs a break back to the floor.
I didn't allow her to have a break. That sounds stupid. I forfeited my chance to ask her to dance at that moment. And I immediately asked for a chance to dance with her next salsa song. She agreed.
1. I didn't make it clear in OP. I was not a stranger to her, at least not on the floor. I danced with her a few times just that week before that final night. We chatted a few times as well, but we were not friends. I was not honoring her a dance, I was asking for a last dance. She agreed. Essentially I would never agree on something and not see it through. But that's just me.
2. If you read my original post you will see I never said: you looked tired. I didn't make any remarks about her appearance at that moment.
3. There was a chance I didn't read the situation right. She might be okay after all. I presumed that if I can't not dance 1-2 hours straight without a break then she can't either. Maybe she didn't walk right because her shoes needed a fix. Maybe She wasn't walking towards rest area quickly, she was walking towards someone ,and she predicted that he will be on her way.
4. In my mind there is no such thing as honoring a dance. I pay less attention to popularity, high value dancers etc...
Apparently you are right. LOL. I lose all the time.
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Bostontraitor
Son
I consider this is the most valueable statement you said in this forum. I agree. I will absorb it.
I pretty much agree with your reasoning up to this point.
The only way I agree to a last dance with someone is if they are my best friend. She might have agreed in the moment but the chances of her turning back and dancing with another is almost certain.
There are times when I am unable to dance with someone and I say to them “I’ll find you later” but I never do. Not because I’m some kind of malicious narcissist, but the opportunity never presents itself again. It could be that she is always dancing or has left to go to the bar for an hour. I’m not going to wait around. I don’t think that’s the same thing as reneging on a promise.
It happened to me recently actually at a festival when an acquaintance of mine approached me at the beginning of the night and we agreed that we’d dance together later in the evening. Then I never saw her again the entire night. I wasn’t going to initiate a search either since it would have been a giant waste of my time. If we happened to cross paths again and we were both un-occupied, I would have asked her.
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Sabrosura
Son Montuno
I appreciate your good intentions here, and I hope she did as well.
But you were making a lot of assumptions. For one thing, good follows tend to have very good fitness levels since one of the reason they are good is because...they dance a lot
Personally, I can dance nonstop -- and I do mean nonstop -- for 3+ hours. I do it all the time. I don't need a break at any time, the few seconds in-between dances are enough for me to recover. And if the music is really good, I get extra energy from it so I can keep going even when I'm exhausted
Also, I am talking about nonstop salsa dancing -- whereas at your party there was also bachata, which allows for extra recovery time (even if she was dancing all the bachatas, they are way less taxing than salsa.)
Next time, I would simply ask her when you have the chance and trust that if she is too tired, she will tell you so. (As a side note -- this is also why I am against people using the "I'm tired" excuse when they're not really tired and they just want to give an excuse, because it makes it less likely that the person being rejected will believe the "I'm tired" when someone really means it. If you don't want to accept someone's invitation for some other reason, just say "No thank you".)
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Bostontraitor
Son
I appreciate your good intentions here, and I hope she did as well.
But you were making a lot of assumptions. For one thing, good follows tend to have very good fitness levels since one of the reason they are good is because...they dance a lot
Personally, I can dance nonstop -- and I do mean nonstop -- for 3+ hours. I do it all the time. I don't need a break at any time, the few seconds in-between dances are enough for me to recover. And if the music is really good, I get extra energy from it so I can keep going even when I'm exhausted
Also, I am talking about nonstop salsa dancing -- whereas at your party there was also bachata, which allows for extra recovery time (even if she was dancing all the bachatas, they are way less taxing than salsa.)
Next time, I would simply ask her when you have the chance and trust that if she is too tired, she will tell you so. (As a side note -- this is also why I am against people using the "I'm tired" excuse when they're not really tired and they just want to give an excuse, because it makes it less likely that the person being rejected will believe the "I'm tired" when someone really means it.)
"Personally, I can dance nonstop -- and I do mean nonstop -- for 3+ hours. I do it all the time. I don't need a break at any time, the few seconds in-between dances are enough for me to recover. And if the music is really good, I get extra energy from it so I can keep going even when I'm exhausted
"I am amazed.
Funny you mentioned about bachata, I actually use more energy when I dance traditional bachata than salsa. Maybe it's just a lead thing? or just me.
I admit that I am not in as good shape as I hope I am. I rarely dance three songs straight. I get overheated easily. I really have to be in the mood to dance many songs straight in a row.
Bostontraitor
Son
I must have it wrong all along. I usually meant exactly what I said even if it's on the dance floor. Sounds like it's different.
Please conduct yourself however you feel in accordance with your character.
I am only referring to my own experiences.
I am always re-evaluating how these things work irl because I find that adjusting my own behavior is easier than expecting an outcome.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
So this would only work in small close knit salsa scenes where everyone knows everyone and socializes a lot in between dances. It would seem weird to me if people made agreements to dance to songs that may come up in the future.
I would liken salsa song partnering to www.offerup.com bidding. It is an app (also works on desktop) to sell used stuff. I use it a lot to get rid of furniture. I learned a lesson that one cannot give anything away for free or else 100s of people send messages and want it and it is hard to pick the person who should get it. These days I always list with a charge which may be very low. If people ask complicated questions, I tell them someone else is already coming to pick it up. If someone offers more than my asking price and requests that I hold it .... I will do that.
Bottomline: a contract arrangement has to have a benefit for both sides. I am not seeing the win-win in the quoted scenario above.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
I have had that happen a few times in a scene with few leads. My standard answer was: You were not available to be asked when great songs came on that we would have enjoyed dancing together
This is pretty much my modus operandi too. I think most dancers behave in the similar fashion.
However…
I don’t know if you literally meant the first line. If I see or sense someone is tired, I won’t ask. I might give a smile or a nod. Will ask them later if chance arises.
It is fifty-fifty. Sometimes another person will ask and she will say yes, or she might say she is tired. I don’t mind missing out on the opportunity if she agrees to dance.
Generally someone who is tired immd after a dance is heading off the dance floor and out of the room. It is obvious they are leaving to take a break and still I see many guys asking, only to be turned down almost every-time.
It is a lot about reading the room as well. There are times when everyone is dancing hard and getting tired. But the mood is to keep going.
There are have been many times where at the start of the dance, the lady either expresses that the last dance or a few have made her tired/breathless. In that case I will change the lead to make it a more relaxing dance. I can’t count the number of times the follower thanks after the dance for not spinning her like crazy or not tiring her out.
If someone is too popular or in much demand, I don’t bother constantly checking for an opportunity. I will wait for a right moment and don’t mind missing out. Sometimes they will come and find me.
I don’t consider it pandering to someone’s ego. I didn’t get how it would be projecting sympathy otherwise.
I always think it is a privilege if someone wants to dance with me or agrees to
I think we all need to be a bit of psychologist, to read the room and dance floor. It is one of complex social dynamics where having good EQ goes a long way. People who lack empathy generally don’t do well at the socials and soon quit.
That is true, escalating increases undue risk. I have been in the situations where I had to step in to handle or confront such types. Don’t know the five-secrets but a lot depends on whether it is a single person or a group of them indulging in harassing as well as what attitude they are projecting. Attitude can be more aggressive if they are on their home truf.
Some get a rise from scaring the women, some think they are only indulging in good nature flirting, some are entitled but not dangerous, and some are just plain dangerous with a sense of entitlement and/or imbibing a degree of sociopathic tendencies.
IME, it's more like 75-25 in favor of them not being tired.
It is difficult to judge who is actually tired vs only looking tired.
So I won't pass up the opportunity to ask when it arises.