Dance Rejection

[Chris_Yannick]

I call then benchers - rather sit there all night or pretend to be DJ (and play the worse music) ... personally I absolutely hate benching... I would have had 10 great dances plus lead a lady and they will still be sitting there and still refused to dance with me ...

Maybe I should know this by now, but what is the deal with "benchers" ? What's the point of going to a dance social only to sit on a bench? Especially if you have at least some dancing skill?

The bench warmers are there to warm up the benches

‘Benchers’ know that the pro/advanced dancers hang out by the DJ/stage area, so sitting in that general area increases the possibility that either they will be asked to dance by a pro or gives them a higher chance of asking since they are within striking distance.

I ask benchers to dance and it’s usually fine. I’ve done it at major congresses too without problem.

IMO, they are doing what everyone else is doing, except that they’re announcing their preferences clearly. It screams “I want to dance with good/high value dancers and be seen by good/high value dancers”. I know some lovely people who are bench warmers and they accept dances with everyone.

The percentage of bench warmers who reject vary from place to place, but I’ve not seen them reject at a higher rate than anybody else.

It’s all psychological mind games. It’s good to switch it up. Sometimes, its good to be the bench warmer. Sometimes, it’s good to be the one who walks around the room asking everyone. Sometimes, it’s better to dance only with one person. Sometimes, it’s better just to watch and have a few drinks.

I would never project how I feel social dancing ‘should be’ onto anyone else. Everyone has their reasons for dancing and if they don’t want to dance with me, that’s fine too.

 

[dadada_486]

I'm good means "no thank you," not that she told him that her own abilities are too good to dance with him.

LOL... Oh my bad... Guess I'm a pessimist. Genuinely thought she was implying she's too good to dance with him!

 

[Chris_Yannick]

LOL... Oh my bad... Guess I'm a pessimist. Genuinely thought she was implying she's too good to dance with him!

That would be the difference between

"No thanks I'm good"

Vs

"No thanks I'm too good"

 

[Offbeat]

Wow, had she seen you dance? I personally wouldn't take to kindly to that comment. Was she an instructor, performer or artist even? Even if she were, it wouldn't be right to say that. She could still reject you but not saying something horrible like that!

Usually when I dance with someone who clearly is good and has a ton of experience, I try my best, but would never ask her for another dance in the same night, unless if it was super quiet or if she asked me, then my confidence would rise to heavenly levels

What’s horrible about that. It is fairly normal way to say. I don’t see anything offensive in saying “no, I am good”

 

[Offbeat]

The bench warmers are there to warm up the benches

‘Benchers’ know that the pro/advanced dancers hang out by the DJ/stage area, so sitting in that general area increases the possibility that either they will be asked to dance by a pro or gives them a higher chance of asking since they are within striking distance. I can sit around not asking anyone if I had enough dances and DJ isn’t inspiring. I will wait till I get second wind.

I ask benchers to dance and it’s usually fine. I’ve done it at major congresses too without problem.

IMO, they are doing what everyone else is doing, except that they’re announcing their preferences clearly. It screams “I want to dance with good/high value dancers and be seen by good/high value dancers”. I know some lovely people who are bench warmers and they accept dances with everyone.

The percentage of bench warmers who reject vary from place to place, but I’ve not seen them reject at a higher rate than anybody else.

It’s all psychological mind games. It’s good to switch it up. Sometimes, its good to be the bench warmer. Sometimes, it’s good to be the one who walks around the room asking everyone. Sometimes, it’s better to dance only with one person. Sometimes, it’s better just to watch and have a few drinks.

I would never project how I feel social dancing ‘should be’ onto anyone else. Everyone has their reasons for dancing and if they don’t want to dance with me, that’s fine too.

At festivals a whole lot of people are sitting by the stage or close to DJ booth, because there is generally space to sit and chat on the sidelines. But you can also enjoy watching people dance. Some times rejection is because they might be interested in watching someone. Other times it could be because they don’t want to dance to the music or are waiting for someone specific to dance with or they could be just resting. The rate of rejection isn’t any higher than elsewhere on the floor. Of all people sitting around the that area only half are advance or pros. The rest are intermediate or less. Some happen to be friends with advance dancers.

Whom you know always triumphs what you know or skill level.

If it is a local social, it will be odd for a lot of people to be sitting around than dancing. At local socials the dancing can only last a few hours. Most people are interested in getting their dances.

 

[xoc123]

At festivals a whole lot of people are sitting by the stage or close to DJ booth, because there is generally space to sit and chat on the sidelines. But you can also enjoy watching people dance.

Yes at festivals those are some front seat with good views and chance to catch a celeb, everyone is fighting for a space there a lot of time it's packed. I do that sometimes too but I realised it's even faster to snap people when you are already on the floor if that's what you really want to do

If it is a local social, it will be odd for a lot of people to be sitting around than dancing. At local socials the dancing can only last a few hours. Most people are interested in getting their dances.

These are the actual benchers that I don't understand, a lot of them actually go very often but sitting around a lot, like they are waiting for the fish all night every night.
But yeah like you said they do what they want to do... but to me it's just a waste of time better go home to sleep

Whom you know always triumphs what you know or skill level.

Agree it seems like this is what the scene is a lot of times.... I found it really annoying when dancing become like this, it's not a popularity contest... Or it is now

 

[ZephBonkerer]

Agree it seems like this is what the scene is a lot of times.... I found it really annoying when dancing become like this, it's not a popularity contest... Or it is now

Most of the time, it isn't. At least in my experience. This isn't high school, this is the dance floor. People who are there to dance and not play stupid socio-political games usually find each other.

Besides which, it seems to me that investing in your dancing skill will help you win some status with the right people anyway. Social climbers tend to snub a lot of people in pursuit of their social agenda, and they often snub the wrong people.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Whom you know always triumphs what you know or skill level.

Agree it seems like this is what the scene is a lot of times.... I found it really annoying when dancing become like this, it's not a popularity contest... Or it is now

But doesn't this happen everywhere? If you go out to any social event, it is natural to grativate towards people you know well.

So I'll greet and dance with the people I know first.

The people who go around and greet promoters, DJs, good dancers, etc have known each other probably for years.

No one is given a free pass, especially if they're new. But being skillful can tip the scales in your favor. So you can either work on your dance skills or people skills. Being good at both will make you instantly likeable.

 

[Offbeat]

But doesn't this happen everywhere? If you go out to any social event, it is natural to grativate towards people you know well.

Of course. In life too success depends on whom you know and being at the right place at the time. Hardwork and talent only gets you so far.

So I'll greet and dance with the people I know first.

If you have that luxury Many times they are so busy dancing that it might take 30-40 minutes to greet the followers I know. And some followers I know, I might not want to dance with till later.

The people who go around and greet promoters, DJs, good dancers, etc have known each other probably for years.

No one is given a free pass, especially if they're new. But being skillful can tip the scales in your favor. So you can either work on your dance skills or people skills. Being good at both will make you instantly likeable.

I have watched the interactions with interest with aforementioned crowd. It is a lot harder for introverts to break the ice. They take time to get to know people. With extroverts it is almost opposite. They will take initiative to break the ice and ingratiate themselves with strangers and influencers alike.

Also gender plays a role. Women have to make far less effort to become in-group with the popular crowd. Even if a women is an introvert, a few men will still pay attention and make sure she is not left out. The men have to work it organically. DJs, promoters, good dancers who have influence tilt heavily male. We have far less women DJs, promoters, and influencers in Salsa world compared to men.

 

[Offbeat]

Most of the time, it isn't. At least in my experience. This isn't high school, this is the dance floor. People who are there to dance and not play stupid socio-political games usually find each other.

Besides which, it seems to me that investing in your dancing skill will help you win some status with the right people anyway. Social climbers tend to snub a lot of people in pursuit of their social agenda, and they often snub the wrong people.

You can get a lot of dances without knowing anyone. That isn't the point. People mostly aren't playing any games. It is natural that people who know each other cut more slack than when they don't know you.

Your dancing skill will have to be in top ten percentile to win status right away.

Winning status is not important. You can happily get as many dances as you want without any status or friends, as long as you keep showing up. Strangers have to go an extra length to prove themselves.

It can also get challenging in scenes where the ratios are lopsided. In leader heavy and follower heavy scenes, the gender in scarce supply can get away with far less skills or efforts.

 

[xoc123]

You can get a lot of dances without knowing anyone. That isn't the point. People mostly aren't playing any games. It is natural that people who know each other cut more slack than when they don't know you.

Your dancing skill will have to be in top ten percentile to win status right away.

Winning status is not important. You can happily get as many dances as you want without any status or friends, as long as you keep showing up. Strangers have to go an extra length to prove themselves.

Haha OK so my expectations of just dropping into any new scene and dance with all the top dancer there is kinda not so realistic. I am currently travelling and in scenes where the level isn't insanely high and niche I am still able to get a lot of dances with the seemly top in every place I go to, but I only get the good ones by asking, being new the ones asked are generally pretty... bad I have to say... and in places that are friendly they don't mind at all, and I have gotten very good at spotting who is happy or eager to dance the song. But isn't it the same in congress tho you have a group people around the organisers and artists or long time goers but generally expect lot of new faces (plus you wouldn't travel to dance with people from your hometown), and the local status thing generally don't apply ( well you get the other kind of celeb chasing crowd). Travelling to dance in local places is a different experience than festivals - even tho I am holding the same mindset - trying to get as many good dances as possible, and without the baggage of my local scene, I actually enjoy to observe how it works in different places and how the level and styles differs

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Haha OK so my expectations of just dropping into any new scene and dance with all the top dancer there is kinda not so realistic

But isn't it the same in congress tho you have a group people around the organisers and artists or long time goers but generally expect lot of new faces (plus you wouldn't travel to dance with people from your hometown),

I find the artist crowd especially is hard to break into because artists like to dance with each other and they share an instant bond and understand each other implicitly.

I taught at a festival once and I got to dance with the other artists only because I was also an 'artist' so to speak. They were coming to me, probably curious who this 'nobody' was lol. But if I wasn't billed as an instructor, I would not have been asked to dance by the other artists, no matter how good I was.

Even skill doesn't get you into the elusive artist circle at big Congresses unless you're insanely good.

But generally speaking, if you show up at events often enough and hang out near the best dancers, you'll get those dances but it takes some time to break in.

If you can get dances with people better than you on the regular, you're doing something right.

 

[Offbeat]

I find the artist crowd especially is hard to break into because artists like to dance with each other and they share an instant bond and understand each other implicitly.

The so-called artists know eachother and keep running into each other multiple times a year. They all share the same problems and challenges with the organizers which they commensurate with eachother. It is not they share instant bond. More that they have a long term bond being on the same team. Organizers are one team, social dancers another team and artists are the third team. There is no more love music at festivals so that eliminates them, though DJs can be yet another team.Social dancers have least leverage, though both need them to show up to be successful.

I taught at a festival once and I got to dance with the other artists only because I was also an 'artist' so to speak. They were coming to me, probably curious who this 'nobody' was lol. But if I wasn't billed as an instructor, I would not have been asked to dance by the other artists, no matter how good I was.

Being part of either team - artists or organizers gives you an instant cred.

Even skill doesn't get you into the elusive artist circle at big Congresses unless you're insanely good.

But generally speaking, if you show up at events often enough and hang out near the best dancers, you'll get those dances but it takes some time to break in.

If you can get dances with people better than you on the regular, you're doing something right.

As a leader I will say it is not that difficult to get dances with top dancers. The challenge is not the the top dancers, but how many people are trying to ask them. So it is about timing of your asking - not getting beaten by others in asking and not asking a top follower after some jerk has put her through wringer.

As a leader I find it can be relatively more challenging at the festival to ask those between intermediate and advanced. Truly advance dancers and top artists are easier. At least my experience.

In local scenes when visiting the challenge more happens to be other guys who are monopolizing the local advance follower. Not by dancing but constant socializing.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

The so-called artists know eachother and keep running into each other multiple times a year. They all share the same problems and challenges with the organizers which they commensurate with eachother. It is not they share instant bond. More that they have a long term bond being on the same team

By instant bond, I mean only other artists understand the demands, struggle and sacrifice that they all go through. But yes, most of the artists know each other and that bond quickly develops into something more resembling a long-term relationship.

Social dancers have least leverage

Yes, they have the least leverage because they have the least responsibility out of all the groups (artists, DJs, organizers) They simply have to show up. It’s not so hard to get a small tight-knit group of social dancers going who you can rely on to help you gain status with other social dancers, unless you are an extreme introvert.

There’s a running joke about how some social dancers are so introverted, that they are terrified at the idea of attending a dinner with other dancers if invited and would rather stay at home and eat alone. The dinner organizer doesn’t understand why people would choose isolation over a group dinner and believes all dancers should be extroverted. Meanwhile, the introvert dancer doesn’t want to be in a small room with a few people at dinner, but have no problems being around hundreds of people at a festival/congress.

There’s so much in between and we all fall somewhere on the spectrum.

 

[Amun]

By instant bond, I mean only other artists understand the demands, struggle and sacrifice that they all go through. But yes, most of the artists know each other and that bond quickly develops into something more resembling a long-term relationship.



Yes, they have the least leverage because they have the least responsibility out of all the groups (artists, DJs, organizers) They simply have to show up. It’s not so hard to get a small tight-knit group of social dancers going who you can rely on to help you gain status with other social dancers, unless you are an extreme introvert.

There’s a running joke about how some social dancers are so introverted, that they are terrified at the idea of attending a dinner with other dancers if invited and would rather stay at home and eat alone. The dinner organizer doesn’t understand why people would choose isolation over a group dinner and believes all dancers should be extroverted. Meanwhile, the introvert dancer doesn’t want to be in a small room with a few people at dinner, but have no problems being around hundreds of people at a festival/congress.

There’s so much in between and we all fall somewhere on the spectrum.

This is so interesting. I had three separate groups of dancing friends, we danced so often and were together at least twice a week, and I was really sad that whenever I suggested we go for dinner or drinks before/after the dance, everyone found an excuse to reject every single time until I stopped trying. At that time I actually thought that maybe money was the problem or that they simply like dancing but are not interested in any friendship whatsoever, or maybe both. I wonder if they were just so shy of others.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I had three separate groups of dancing friends, we danced so often and were together at least twice a week, and I was really sad that whenever I suggested we go for dinner or drinks before/after the dance, everyone found an excuse to reject every single time until I stopped trying. At that time I actually thought that maybe money was the problem or that they simply like dancing but are not interested in any friendship whatsoever, or maybe both. I wonder if they were just so shy of others.

I think the perception of dancers is that they are a lot more sociable than they actually are.
Dancers, even ones you frequently dance with, are still stranger-like outside of dancing.

I have had dinners with large groups without problem and have had dinners with people I’d rather not meet again outside of dancing.

The ones I didn’t want to have dinner with were pushy and a lot more on the extraverted side.

The best way to push introverted people away is to be in their face all the time.

I recently had an experience where I met a New Yorker at a festival here in Europe. We were eating dinner together as a group with other strangers, and while this person was very popular, was extremely loud, talkative and daresay a stereotypical New Yorker. I was uncomfortable just at the delivery of her speech. These extreme extravert types I avoid because I need to be around calm and relaxed people who are like me, which to my surprise is the majority of dancers. Extraverted people may take this as an affront to their nature.

It is possible to get used to these people (being forced to be around them at work, for example), but if I have the choice, I will remove myself from any potential situation where I feel like I don’t fit in.

If you’re the one planning these dinners, the best thing to do is not to get offended if people reject your invitation.

 

[Amun]

I think the perception of dancers is that they are a lot more sociable than they actually are.
Dancers, even ones you frequently dance with, are still stranger-like outside of dancing.

I have had dinners with large groups without problem and have had dinners with people I’d rather not meet again outside of dancing.

The ones I didn’t want to have dinner with were pushy and a lot more on the extraverted side.

The best way to push introverted people away is to be in their face all the time.

I recently had an experience where I met a New Yorker at a festival here in Europe. We were eating dinner together as a group with other strangers, and while this person was very popular, was extremely loud, talkative and daresay a stereotypical New Yorker. I was uncomfortable just at the delivery of her speech. These extreme extravert types I avoid because I need to be around calm and relaxed people who are like me, which to my surprise is the majority of dancers. Extraverted people may take this as an affront to their nature.

It is possible to get used to these people (being forced to be around them at work, for example), but if I have the choice, I will remove myself from any potential situation where I feel like I don’t fit in.

If you’re the one planning these dinners, the best thing to do is not to get offended if people reject your invitation.

yeah I understand, sometimes I was thinking that maybe this was the case and they just didn't like me (or each other) but whenever we met in social, everyone was immediately coming to say hi, and we stayed as a group together every single time, and I was invited whenever someone found a new social to go. To be honest it turned out into some strange kind of "friendship" when you constantly hang out together in clubs but wouldn't go for a single drink together. I was never offended by the rejection, more like sad. But basically, it ended when I got long covid and had to stop dancing. No dance meant no friendship in this set up, and I realized I actually don't want to hang out with those groups anymore when I was healthy again. Don't get me wrong I don't need to befriend every single person I dance with, I have tons of acquaintances in clubs that I just say hi and that's it, but in that particular case, it was really strange as we were always together (both at schools and socials). I really wonder if the idea of large gathering at dinner scared them. I will never know but it was interesting to hear.

 

[Offbeat]

yeah I understand, sometimes I was thinking that maybe this was the case and they just didn't like me (or each other) but whenever we met in social, everyone was immediately coming to say hi, and we stayed as a group together every single time, and I was invited whenever someone found a new social to go. To be honest it turned out into some strange kind of "friendship" when you constantly hang out together in clubs but wouldn't go for a single drink together. I was never offended by the rejection, more like sad. But basically, it ended when I got long covid and had to stop dancing. No dance meant no friendship in this set up, and I realized I actually don't want to hang out with those groups anymore when I was healthy again. Don't get me wrong I don't need to befriend every single person I dance with, I have tons of acquaintances in clubs that I just say hi and that's it, but in that particular case, it was really strange as we were always together (both at schools and socials). I really wonder if the idea of large gathering at dinner scared them. I will never know but it was interesting to hear.

In my experience that is really strange that a group will avoid drinks/dinner before or after social. Most people irrespective of their nature, are up for such. Not everyone can be available all the time but some always are.

Despite not very social with other dancers, I have attended or instigated my fair share of dinners before and after. Actually it is one of the fun parts of attending a festival. Honestly I don't remember coming across anyone who consistently will avoid pre or post dancing get togethers. These rarely tend to be larger than 5 or 6 people. On occassions it can be 12-15 people.

Your experience with three groups is very odd one, since no one wanted to meet up before or after dancing. That is such an anomaly. Being introvert doesn't mean they avoid social situations. Most introverts can be fairly social. I have known a few extreme introverts in dancing. They too didn't go to any extremes to avoid being part of a group outside dancing. I don't think this can be viewed or explained from introversion/extroversion lens.