Cuban Salsa: Detailled visual breakdown of basic steps and Dil Que No?

[vit]

OK. Let's try to clear the mess.

*There is a Cuban dance called 'Son'.
*There is a newer (1950-ish) dance, also Cuban, called 'Casino'.
*Casino happens when you take Son and optimize it for 'Rueda'.

Well, it doesn't match what he said about Casino history (3rd sentence I mean). Here is the interview anyway, so anybody can make own conclusions

Here is also an interesting demo with a number of original dancers

 

[vit]

First, with my "cannot not find much basic material" comment I was definitely referring to Cuban Salsa, not to the traditional Casino. In lack of better words, I would wish(!) to dance Cuban Salsa like a "modern" Cuban with a mix of different influences - not to dance Casino like a Cuban. It might be my background and I am overthinking, as well as diving far to deep into technicalities, but I just would like some general advice, for example, which basic step is cool for which part of the song, how I archieve the circular motion, when it makes sense to break into a DLQ, how many degrees to move around the lady, where in the room to end up after a pattern? The MCC approach seems to be the only one that trys to incoporate a system that gives you some kind of orientation in the room: Where to turn, how to turn, when to walk in a smaller and when in larger circles (pretty much what the circle is for they painted on the ground in the training videos).

These things happen automatically when learning it in rueda, that's why people learn it that way. No need for overthinking

 

[Dissonant Harmony]

Well, it doesn't match what he said about Casino history (3rd sentence I mean). Here is the interview anyway, so anybody can make own conclusions

Here is also an interesting demo with a number of original dancers

I clearly stated that was a "distorted statement, for the sake of oversimplification" and not an actual fact. :S

-Also, thanks for that awesome video. Was going to search / ask for it!

 

[Dissonant Harmony]

which basic step is cool for which part of the song

You can lead anything you desire. It's accetpably 'tactful' to keep the dance simple and "close" when the music is calm (Usually: Beginning / end of the song), and showcase your armory of moves at the more 'energetic' parts of it.

That blogger speaks about it in some of his articles. Especially in this one:

https://sonycasino.com/2014/07/19/h...ancing-experience-overcoming-turnpatternitis/

how I archieve the circular motion

By leading in a fashion that promotes circular motion.
(I know, that doesn't really answer your question, but Leading and Following is an entire subject).

I can't teach you "how to lead" over the internet.

Here are two threads that discuss Circular Movement, though:

http://salsaforums.com/threads/the-backstep-in-casino-or-cuban-salsa.29973/
http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/casino-or-not.21228/

, when it makes sense to break into a DLQ, how many degrees to move around the lady

I didn't understand your question.
(Yet despite not understanding what you ask, I am 99% certain the answer is: "How many ever degrees you want, and also works, and also feels good).

, where in the room to end up after a pattern?

Wherever. Unless It's in Rueda, then you are obligated to make sure to end up the same way everyone does so things work fluently.

The MCC approach seems to be the only one that trys to incoporate a system that gives you some kind of orientation in the room: Where to turn, how to turn, when to walk in a smaller and when in larger circles (pretty much what the circle is for they painted on the ground in the training videos).

I would not say the "the only": "How" and "When" to turn are slowly being taught everywhere.

As for the rest - you are looking for rules where there aren't.
Be happy! That's a good thing!

If someone told me: "No, you are supposed to end your DLQ there", or: "No, you do Enchufla using that hand!" I'd raise my eyebows and stare at him a semi-snobbish look. And I am actually probably one of the most not-snobbish dancers you'll ever meet.

Second, am not really looking for a "standarized" version of Cuban Salsa with rules, just for some "ways to do it" or "variations". That might sound strange, but let us compare it to learning a foreign language. Same as with Cuban Salsa, there is no one way to learn a language, you could start with reading, speaking, grammar and so on. But still, every language teacher has his or her own "system" to teach (sure, you could argue language more very standarized and there is a common grammar). Why is it that hard to find?

There are different views and approach towards leading and following in salsa. Each could be applied to Cuban Salsa.

If you want mine REEEALLY summed up.

1) There's that '1-2-3...5-6-7...' stepping sequence. Assume that the ladies follow it. It makes syncronization better.

2) Get to any sort of hold/frame with the girl. Create 'Contra'. (When both dancers neutralize each other's net force by applying opposing equal forces to each other). Girl's job is to maintain that feel!

3) Keep that hold. Push the ground to move. This will change the forces the girl should feel. Since her role is to "maintain the feel" - she should be moving accordingly. If for some reason you stop leading - Girl should carry momentum. (As if she's a shopping kart).

4) You are free to alter your hold, but make sure the girl doesn't feel in change in the force applied to her.

5) Aim to shift the girl's momentum gradually. Not in a "Break". Use her momentum. Think about traveling with a shopping kart.

6) Rotate a girl around his axis while she moves - to make her change direction. At a certain level of rotation - that would make her turn. Girl can only turn around an axis, so if she has to turn under her hand - you can control when she turns by making sure she gets to be under her arm on your preferred time.

7) When a girl turns - contra dies. YOU DONT MESS WITH A GIRL WHILE SHE"S TURNING. Restablish Contra and use her momentum again once she stops turning.

8) Both partners try to face each other in a degree that's between 0~90.

9) Girl will use the 3-4 to adjust her angle (Usually by using twists or taps). Let her do it without interferring.

10) Girl follows (Not just walks) around the guys in a Circle, as if she's orbitting it. Gradually shifting her direction of moving or changing your position in relation to her would make her change direction - as if she's caught in your gravity.

11) Once those things are establishes - choreographing as you will is a joke. Girl either encircles you CW or ACW. In each case - she can either turn (around her axis) CW or ACW. That's it. The rest is just a matter of holds and positions...

---

To keep it simple, I am just surprised how few didactic "I do this particular basic step X this way, a DLQ that way and connect it all with this pattern Y" videos are out there.

Almost every class I have taken was very very very meticulous in that matter.
Actually, it's because teachers in my scene teach moves like a cooking book (Do this, then that, then that, then that...), and not establish propr understanding of technique - that they absolutely MUST be very very very accurate and address every little thiny thing in each move. (Otherwise: Students will be lost and have no clue why, or how to fix it). And this takes time. (About 15 mins for a variation). This is the type of information you'll get in class. (And not in a youtube video). Actially - Salsa Lovers' DVDs kinda do this. They skip the "how" and "why" and tell you the "what".

It does not have to be the one only way to happyness, just one way out of many. If someone had an approach like Yoel Marerro, only to Cuban Salsa and not that close-minded and excluding of other methods and styles, I would definitely dive into that.

In my area - almost every teacher has. I don't think it's different anywhere else. :S

Answers in red. (At least I think it's red. Color-Blind here. )

 

[BMorin]

Remember!
Dance is ALWAYS about how and what you feel!

In social dance: There is no "Right" and "Wrong":

There is "Traditionally accurate",
there is "commonly used and accepted in my area",
there is "more fun" and "less fun",
or "looks better to my eyes" or "doesn't look better to my eyes",
There is "safe" and "dangerous",
"approriate" and "inappropriate"

But never "Right" and "WRONG".

NO ONE tells you how to dance.
NO. ONE. Excepts the music. And your "heart".

I wish someone had told me this a long time ago. I would also add that social dancing is as much (if not more) about how your partner feels.

In the SF Bay Area I could show you how different schools/instructors/etc teach the same thing. Even cases of where how one way to lead a thing is going to tend to go over poorly with a student of another school.

 

[CUBAPEDIA]

This looks like an interesting discussion, ripe with well intended advise and a lot of misconceptions.

As about naming and MCC relation, Casino started as a cuban copy of some swing dances by the group of white people dancing in a club where the owner was a black guy .......

MCC tried preserving older form, however in quite aggressive manner including some statements that were classified as racist (it's however region dependent - in my venue for instance nothing of that would be classified as such by majority of people, but people from some other countries where there are problems between races didn't understand that), so people generally don't like it, in addition that it doesn't have fancy afrocuban stuff taken from rumba that people are attracted with ... I wouldn't suggest learning using MCC either - just because you can't learn from videos no matter how good the methodology is (or author thinks it is)

Cuban Casino did not start as a copy of any Swing dance. And it did not emulate ANY Swing dance in any shape or form. JUAN GOMEZ is not the "Founder" nor an authority. He's simply just another average Cuban from an entire generation (and many that came before), that danced Casino. He did not invent anything, he did not originate anything, and if HE IMITATED Swing, that was his own thing. The gold standard for Casino in the early days was Rosendo - not because he invented it either, but because he directed the most famous Rueda de Casino and was often showcased on TV.

Casino is a generational dance that cannot be attributed to any one individual or group. Casino is simply a name that caught in the late 50's to Son Urbano being danced in Rueda. However, Son Urbano dates back much further and this dance itself is derived from danzon all the way back to the 1950's.

If you have any doubt as to this, keep in mind that Pierre and Doris went to Cuba to learn to dance SON URBANO from the 40's to the 60's, which they used as a template for their ballroom curriculum of Cuban dances (the name at the time was Rumba).

The entire interview with Juan Gomez is self-serving, claiming a protagonist role for him and his cronies that is simply a fantasy. And if you truly think that Swing Dance has any influence in Casino - before you accept any false testimony - I challenge you to point out to me exactly how Casino figures have burrowed from Swing/Rock and Roll.

Here's a few of the standard figures to get you started:

• Paso Basico de Son
• Entrada Corta
• Entrada Larga
• Paseala
• Exibela
• Vacilala
• Dile Que No
• Rodeo
• Rodeo Inverso
• Para Ti y Para Mi (Guapea)
• Botella
• Enchufa
• Cedazo
• Paseo
• Saloneo
• Coronala
• Giro De Son

Feel fee to include other figures so that you can explain how they are derived from Swing or Rock and Roll. One has to be very naive to believe that during the Cold War in Cuba when everything American was banned - including the Beatles who are Brit - dancers would be imitating Rock and Roll (which by the way looks nothing like Casino or Son). Especially under the watchful eye of the party in public places such as the Social Clubs in Mariano (where Casino Deportivo is). In those days "dissidents" and homosexuals were imprisoned in labor camps called UMAP for the slighest suspicion of "ideological diversionism" without trial.

@TomSchueler

Salsa Cubana is a phenomenon that exists outside of Cuba. The notion that it is how modern Cubans dance or some sort of "evolution" is a myth.In reality Cuban salsa is simply a niche market outside of Cuba for profit, and to create a space for Cuban instructors within a Salsa industry in Europe. You will not find Cubans dancing like Maykel Fonts, or Yeni Molinet - these are professional artists, not social dancers. Cubans of all ages dance CASINO, not salsa Cubana. If you ever go outside of the tourist hot spots you'll see for yourself.

 

[vit]

Feel fee to include other figures so that you can explain how they are derived from Swing or Rock and Roll. One has to be very naive to believe that during the Cold War in Cuba when everything American was banned

Well, Juan said (from my remembering) it was 2 years before that ...
Anyway, some moves looks like they came from swing, enchufla for instance. Can you give better explanation where it came from ?

 

[terence]

If you have any doubt as to this, keep in mind that Pierre and Doris went to Cuba to learn to dance SON URBANO from the 40's to the 60's, which they used as a template for their ballroom curriculum of Cuban dances (the name at the time was Rumba).
CASINO, not salsa Cubana. .

Ironically, what he came back with, was a more of a Mambo styled dance.
The British board, as it was then known, did not formalise the "new" style of Rumba ( the Danzon format had been in vogue since the 30s ) .

An agreement was eventually reached as to style and content ,in the early 50s, and the technique was not totally formalised, until the late 50, early 60s.The final "draft " was done by Walter Laird (one of my first latin teachers ) .

I had the distinct pleasure ,of being invited to the UK championships, by Doris, in 1983, whilst on a visit to the UK.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Cuban Casino did not start as a copy of any Swing dance. And it did not emulate ANY Swing dance in any shape or form.

One has to be very naive to believe that during the Cold War in Cuba when everything American was banned - including the Beatles who are Brit - dancers would be imitating Rock and Roll (which by the way looks nothing like Casino or Son). Especially under the watchful eye of the party in public places such as the Social Clubs in Mariano (where Casino Deportivo is). In those days "dissidents" and homosexuals were imprisoned in labor camps called UMAP for the slighest suspicion of "ideological diversionism" without trial.

@TomSchueler

Salsa Cubana is a phenomenon that exists outside of Cuba. The notion that it is how modern Cubans dance or some sort of "evolution" is a myth.In reality Cuban salsa is simply a niche market outside of Cuba for profit, and to create a space for Cuban instructors within a Salsa industry in Europe. You will not find Cubans dancing like Maykel Fonts, or Yeni Molinet - these are professional artists, not social dancers. Cubans of all ages dance CASINO, not salsa Cubana. If you ever go outside of the tourist hot spots you'll see for yourself.

Just so I don't waste my time arguing in a futile manner, please can you confirm you are not a certain person who appears here regularly under different names, and has a similar line of reasoning to yours? If you aren't him then please accept my sincere apologies for suggesting otherwise - no offence is intended - but I don't want to engage in debate with the clown in question, as he turns nasty when anyone points out the obvious inconsistencies and errors in his thinking.

 

[vit]

Chances that it's not him again are slim, 0% at best

 

[DJ Yuca]

His username suggests a level of expertise that fits in with the person in question's perception of himself.

 

[terence]

Ironically, what he came back with, was a more of a Mambo styled dance.
The British board, as it was then known, did not formalise the "new" style of Rumba ( the Danzon format had been in vogue since the 30s ) .

An agreement was eventually reached as to style and content ,in the early 50s, and the technique was not totally formalised, until the late 50, early 60s.The final "draft " was done by Walter Laird (one of my first latin teachers ) .

I had the distinct pleasure ,of being invited to the UK championships, by Doris, in 1983, whilst on a visit to the UK.

I would be remiss if ,I did not mention the Bolero.

Looking at its structure, it is very reminiscent of Intern style
Rumba ( and some basics in Mambo ).Both mambo and Bolero were in the A.Murray syl. before the advent of Pierre's contribution in addition to the Danzon version being taught .I often have wondered, if Pierre had seen it, and the impact it may have had.

In todays social dance interpretations, all are hybrids that, have "borrowed " from other dance disciplines ( even the 3rd position side breaks in Son ) .
There few, if any, definitive claimants to authenticity , in "total" dance construct..

 

[vit]

There is also a book salsa y casino, that looks like another source of information.
Partially available on google books (most of casino part)

https://books.google.si/books?id=44h6wI2PlrsC

 

[Dissonant Harmony]

Just so I don't waste my time arguing in a futile manner, please can you confirm you are not a certain person who appears here regularly under different names, and has a similar line of reasoning to yours? If you aren't him then please accept my sincere apologies for suggesting otherwise - no offence is intended - but I don't want to engage in debate with the clown in question, as he turns nasty when anyone points out the obvious inconsistencies and errors in his thinking.

Last time that happened - he was actually kind, patient, helpful and informative. :S

 

[CUBAPEDIA]

@vit

My intention is not to be personally contentious to you, I hope you understand that. It is expected that you would believe what Juan Gomez said, after all he's Cuban and directs a well known Rueda de Casino (Rueda de Fundadores, even though these people aren't actually Founders, just part of the 50's generation). Gomez presents a "plausible" and even poetic history of Casino, tying it to Swing and taking credit for it. However, it's a farce, and the reason I went into such length to rebuke it, is so that you can reflect and realize that once you get down to a detailed analysis, it makes absolutely no sense.

I will answer your question about Guapea (this is the Miami name, the original Cuban name is Para Ti y Para Mi). Before I do, I will ask you to explain how you think this comes from Swing. My question is, what Swing Figure from the 1950's is used as the template for Guapea?

I own Barbara Balbuena's "El Casino y la Salsa en Cuba". It's an adequate introduction, with some flaws. Of course, nowhere in her book is stated that Casino is derived or influenced by Swing or Rock'n Roll.



@DJ Yuca

There's no need for your long preamble. I am not a sensitive snowflake and take no offense to petty words. If you have a rebuttal to what I typed, go ahead, I'd like to read it. If however, you have no argument, and instead intend to simply divert the conversation into name calling, then I have little interest in what you have to say.



@terence

My knowledge of European Latin Ballroom Dances in the first half of the 20th century is limited to the literature of the time, and scant video footage. I have Doris Lavelle's "Latin & American Dances", 3rd Edition. I have also seen the footage of her and Pierre dancing "Rumba" in Havana (mistakenly dated 1947), and it is 100% Son Urbano, not Cuban Mambo. I quote from the book:

Preface
It was in 1960 that my late partner, Monsieur Pierre, first went to Cuba to study the Rumba and three years later I accompanied him to Cuba, Brazil, and North America to make an intensive study of the Rumba, Samba, American Swing–or Jive– and the Cha Cha Cha. We visited these countries regularly until Monsieur Pierre's death in 1963, and we brought back from each visit many films we had taken of expert dancers.
(p. xi)

Rumba
The authentic ballroom Rumba, Bolero or Son, was originally taught in this country in 1947. My late partner, Pierre, visited Havana, Cuba, and found that although we had been teaching and dancing to Cuban music for some years we were not teaching it as taught and danced in Cuba. When dancing with the Cuban girls Pierre discovered that they were not happy with the rhythm he was using and upon further study with the famous professional Pepe Rivera, realized that they danced the basic step commencing on the second beat of the bar of music (...) The tempo can be very slow, medium or very fast, but when first studying this dance it is better to use medium tempo, 30-32 bars per minute.
(p.1)


Mambo
The Mambo is a fast tempo Ballroom Rumba. It is at its best at tempo of 50/55 or even 60 bars per minute.
(p. 169)​

 

[DJ Yuca]

@DJ Yuca

There's no need for your long preamble. I am not a sensitive snowflake and take no offense to petty words. If you have a rebuttal to what I typed, go ahead, I'd like to read it.

So it is you José aka Myst etc. I have no intention of engaging with you further, for 1 reason because you have already been banned numerous times. Why go where you are not wanted?

 

[vit]

@vit
I will answer your question about Guapea (this is the Miami name, the original Cuban name is Para Ti y Para Mi). Before I do, I will ask you to explain how you think this comes from Swing. My question is, what Swing Figure from the 1950's is used as the template for Guapea?

It was about enchufla (I suppose also a Miami name). I don't know much about son, but since BR rumba was a derivative of it and that move isn't among basic moves in BR rumba, I suppose it's not from son. Or ?

I understand what you are talking about and I'm not denying a dominant role of son and danzon in casino. Juan's explanation seems to be just about first phase of Casino, before revolution, and I have no reason not to believe that it had begun that way nor is his explanation in contradiction with the book

 

[CUBAPEDIA]

It was about enchufla (I suppose also a Miami name). I don't know much about son, but since BR rumba was a derivative of it and that move isn't among basic moves in BR rumba, I suppose it's not from son. Or ?

I understand what you are talking about and I'm not denying a dominant role of son and danzon in casino. Juan's explanation seems to be just about first phase of Casino, before revolution, and I have no reason not to believe that it had begun that way nor is his explanation in contradiction with the book

Pardon, I misread and assumed you meant Guapea instead of Enchufa (since Guapea is a figure developed in Casino that had no precedent in Son – and could be a understandable to mistakenly assume it comes from another dance).

With Enchufa (from the Spanish verb enchufar) there's absolutely no grounds to assume it comes from another dance such as Swing. Enchufa already exists in Son Urbano, and you can even see it in Pierre's video. My question remains:

Which Swing figure provided this alleged framework for Enchufa (or anything other figure you want to choose as a case study)?


Swing had no influence in Casino, nor Son. You must understand that before the name "Casino" was coined and become popular, Son Urbano and even Cha Cha Cha were also danced in Ruedas before the 50's. Casino is a later development of Son Urbano. The Casino from the 50's and 60's is indistinguishable from Son Urbano. Modern Casino diverged and matured as a separate dance after a few decades of optimization, through the 70's-80's.

I repeat, Juan Gomez nor Swing played any significant part in this development. This was a long generational process that goes back to the 18th century with Contradanza, through the 19th century with Danza Habanera and Danzón, and through the 20th century with Son Urbano, culminating with Casino in the second half of the 20th century. Balbuena's book supports this, I'll quote and translate from the book since you consider this book reliable (and in this aspect it is):

III. The Antecedents of Casino

The antecedents of Casino can be traced all the way back to Contradanza, a music genre originated in England and Normandy (...) Contradanza is introduced in Cuba via Spain, which as a colonizer imposed her customs in the island; and via English intervention, when the British occupied Havana in 1762 (...)
(p.20)

IV. The Beginning of Casino. First Stage: 1950-1959
Son Cubano and Cha Cha Cha are the musical and dance manifestations that will become the fundamental pillars in the creation of Casino as a new style of Cuban social ballroom dance.
(p.29)​

 

[vit]

With Enchufa (from the Spanish verb enchufar) there's absolutely no grounds to assume it comes from another dance such as Swing. Enchufa already exists in Son Urbano, and you can even see it in Pierre's video.

No, there is no move in that video that looks like enchufla. There is however another similar move in the video we call hockey stick in BR, but it has 2 additional steps and different ending
Ok, that concludes my discussion with you. Good luck

 

[CUBAPEDIA]

No, there is no move in that video that looks like enchufla. There is however another similar move in the video we call hockey stick in BR, but it has 2 additional steps and different ending
Ok, that concludes my discussion with you. Good luck

If you don't see an Enchufa in Pierre's video, allow me to point EXACTLY where it is:

youtube[dot]com/watch?v=oLNf34fdbhw

Notice the gentleman in the dark suit and the lady in the blue skirt. Starting at second 0.18

1- From open position
2- Lady walks toward gentleman in 3 steps, and then pivots counter clockwise in an underarm turn
3- After pivot, end in close position at 0.22 seconds.

This is an Enchufa...

The Enchufa is done as a transition from Open Position to Closed Position, once in Closed Position, they execute a Cedazo (both rotating together in close hold).

The irony is that Monsieur Pierre was a better and more authentic Son Urbano dancer in the 60's than every prominent Cuban "salsa" instructor in Europe is today.