Cuban Salsa: Detailled visual breakdown of basic steps and Dil Que No?

#61
Why are you screwed? I understand it during a Rueda, where you have to be in the same basic position after 8 counts, for example. But when dancing with a partner? you're keeping the same rhythm, it's not like you have a deadline to get somewhere
 
#62
Exactly. That's why casino in its most efficient form is danced with continuous forward motion ;). Exactly like the natural way in which we walk.

Especially with fast music! If you break back even slightly during a timba or other fast tempo song when dancing casino, you're screwed :eek:
Here I have to disagree: People break back in many sorts of dances and then use tenstion to "fix the direction" - and they are fine.

I doubt it's more "natural",
I don't believe it's more efficient,
and it's defeinitely less smooth and controllable, and also less "circular"...
But screwed? S:
 
#64
Here I have to disagree: People break back in many sorts of dances and then use tenstion to "fix the direction" - and they are fine.

I doubt it's more "natural",
I don't believe it's more efficient,
and it's defeinitely less smooth and controllable, and also less "circular"...
But screwed? S:
@LeonD
I meant screwed in the sense that you'll likely
get off the timing and then be rushing to catch up. Also, Since in casino the partners are circularly orbiting each other and the man is counting on the woman's constant travel forward in terms of what he's going to lead and where he has to end up in relationship to her physically, it can really throw things off.
 
#68
@LeonD
I meant screwed in the sense that you'll likely
get off the timing and then be rushing to catch up. Also, Since in casino the partners are circularly orbiting each other and the man is counting on the woman's constant travel forward in terms of what he's going to lead and where he has to end up in relationship to her physically, it can really throw things off.
I understand you now better, but we are still on disagree here, I think. :(

-If she stpes back - then there will be tension on the 1, and she'll go forward on the 2, and readjust on 3-4. Like usual. Nowhere to run. It'd just be triangular rather than circular.

Moreover, I may count on the lady to go forward, if I lead forward, but nice leading is about escorting the girl's momentum...If she suddenly does something unexpected, then a half competent lead will know where and how the girl would go on the 2-3 (as a consequence of what that happened on the 1), and readjust his position or location in relation to that, to create what he originally wanted to happen.

It won't throw anything of - just affect the dynamics (and the direction of the 'flow') during the following 2-3.
 

vit

Son Montuno
#69
So path of the follower in DQN shoud be circular ? I like triangular version. Version where the follover just walks around me with zero tension on 3-4 is boring to me
 
#70
I see 0 reasons to pull a girl towards a direction she's already going.
Also, the girl doesn't just walk around you; She follows you. In circular Motion. Around you.
There are Frame, Contra and Momentum to keep...
 
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vit

Son Montuno
#71
I didn't mean pulling the girl anywhere, but variation of the tension during the move which gives girl the direction. So the way I like it, she steps first step with right foot near the left, because she finished there at end of previous move (enchufla for instance). She can make that step slightly forward or slightly backward, I don't really care. I just care that she starts moving forward when I lead her forward (and not backward trying to do some back break, which happens with many linear followers, because in that case her leg usually can't reach the ground). Then she goes forward on 2 and 3 as result of some tension created on my 1st step, and then I change her direction again from my right to my left side - it's a consequence of me moving to the left on 3 and 4 which creates tension ... Amount of tension that I apply depends on the girl, some of them are making short steps and then it's very little, some of them are making larger steps and then it's more or much more ... but if it is zero and the girl just walks around me on autopilot during DQN, it's totally boring to me, just like doing break steps and other things on autopilot in linear salsa

So maybe I'm getting it wrong, but it works well for me with girls that are good in casino, so I don't really care as I don't consider myself a casino dancer anyway ...
 
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#72
I didn't mean pulling the girl
I kinda exagerrated, (sorry!) but I think we both know what we meant.

So the way I like it, she steps first step with right foot near the left, because she finished there at end of previous move (enchufla for instance)
The way I like it - she won't stop. I keep the momentum forward. It's endless. The girl moves because she feels it's the most comfortable and "natural" thing to do, but her pursuing after getting to where her body feels she has to go would not be over.
Imagine traveling with a shopping cart.

I just care that she starts moving forward when I lead her forward
The way I dance - girls will spend their time re-adjusting the direction they face in relation to my location, and also to the direction of the "momentum". (what world should I use instead of 'momentum'? It's obviously not momentum. More of a 'fake principle of inertia').

I may alter the direction of that "momentum" on the 3, or the 7. But as I said - it's more like the way you would redirect a moving shopping cart. Girll, therefore, will efficiently follow it (adjusting on the 3-4, or the 7-8). By the end o the 4/8 she'll face (or almost face) the direction she'll be going towards on the 1...And also already "pack" some "momentum" towards that direction. She would have no reason to feel that she should stop, or go backwards.

The girl's stepping will most of the time be in the form of: "forward-forward-forwad-readjust (Using twists or taps)...forward-forward-forward-readjust...(When forward" is in an arc).

Then she goes forward on 2 and 3 as result of some tension created on my 1st step
In my case - she'll go forward on the "1" already, as a result of what she dod on the 8.

I'll be lying if I say I never use tesnion during 1, 2.5, 4, 5, 6.5 or 8, though. Becase I may use those beats to "dictate" and "readjust" some things in a (little bit) more 'explosive' manner.

and then I change her direction again from my right to my left side - it's a consequence of me moving to the left on 3 and 4 which creates tensionp
In my case this will happen only if the girl stops following the lead. (And stopping going "after the momentum", or just breaking her frame). This happens, though. Not the end of the world. I'd either go "triangular" for the following 3 beats, or do some change of plan and quickly adjust to the new "direction of momentum" she created, in a way that makes it end up being circular and "pleasant". I have to draw / animate this to explain, though.

but if it is zero and the girl just walks around me on autopilot during DQN, it's totally boring to me, just like doing break steps and other things on autopilot in linear salsa
I totally agree, but that's not the case here. Once again: Frame, Contra, and 'Fake-Inertia' to "flow" with.

So maybe I'm getting it wrong, but it works well for me with girls that are good in casino, so I don't really care as I don't consider myself a casino dancer anyway ...
*This are all my own personal habits and ways of leading. This is how I like to dance, and how I do things / make things happen.

If it works for you, and your partner, and you manage to pull off everything you want to do, just in the way that you want it to be, and it feels good and right to both you and your partners...Then how ever the hell can you be wrong? :)

Keep doing what works and feels good! (Just make sure to try to understand some other ways, because...Who knows, you may like them. Or not. But exploring and experiencing in this field is always worth a try. :p )
 

vit

Son Montuno
#73
Yeah, I have heard about shopping cart from teachers in zouk and wcs. That model is a kind of ok to make a point on smooth traveling of the follower. However, shopping cart has rigid handle and frame and isn't giving me a feedback especially similar to what I expect from a follower in any latin dance - I expect nice elasticity in her arms and body and some motor turning the wheels (although many times it is what I actually get + sometimes the wheels are a kind of malfunctioning)
 
#74
Yeah, I have heard about shopping cart from teachers in zouk and wcs. That model is a kind of ok to make a point on smooth traveling of the follower. However, shopping cart has rigid handle and frame and isn't giving me a feedback especially similar to what I expect from a follower in any latin dance - I expect nice elasticity in her arms and body and some motor turning the wheels (although many times it is what I actually get + sometimes the wheels are a kind of malfunctioning)
Haha! :D

Then I think we are actually in a lot of agreement on that issue.
 

azzey

Son Montuno
#75
Could you guys recommend any video in which a renowned teacher such as Oliver breaks down the Cuban basic and DLQ into its elements?
LOL. Don't look for a "renowned" teacher to teach you the basics well. How famous they are has nothing to do with how good an instructor they are. You need a good and patient instructor. Ideally one who is Cuban in order to get the style right.

I would love to get more detailled info about shifting of weight, where to place the foot, body movement etc.
That's not how Casino is taught, at least by Cubans anyway. They use the holistic approach to teaching.

After reading many many posts in the forum, I am not even sure anymore how many basic steps there are and if Oliver's videos about stepping, contra body movement and isolations are at least partly applicable to "Cuban" style Salsa.
They are partly applicable to Cuban salsa, but there are differences too. You can't learn authentic Casino from watching Oliver, especially when he's dancing cross-body style.

I would definitetly love to hear your thoughts about the specific differences concering the basics in different styles!
The Salsa a la Cubana series is very good. There are 6 DVD's in the series. I used it a lot when I was learning back in 2004, although I was also taking regular classes with Cuban instructors here (my instructors for Casino are from Havana). Ibert Vazquez Moreno (see 1:07 in the clip below) is/was a very good Cuban Casino dancer.

A little dated now, but they still do the job, if used in addition to classes in the style and social dancing.


http://www.salsaville.com/salsa_a_la_cubana.htm
The guides to the DVD's are here: http://salsaville.com/salc/salc_guides.htm e.g. DVD 1 from above http://salsaville.com/salc/salc_intr1_guide.htm

Some other real Cuban DVD's are available from: http://www.boogalu.com/video/catalog

The only two DVD's I would recommend for a beginner/intermediate from that collection are Mueve La Cintura and Casinando:
http://www.boogalu.com/salsa-dance/mueve-la-cintura
http://www.boogalu.com/salsa-dance/casinando

These two DVD's are only really useful as examples of good Cuban dancing as the instruction part is very short, very limited and not very good.

No DVD is going to give you a technique focussed breakdown like you're asking and you would need to do private lessons for that.

As for famous, the section on 1:04 of Casinando features Yanet Fuentes (of the Lady Salsa show):



And Roynet Perez (blue shirt at 0:04) below does the congress workshop scene, though you're probably getting him at his best in this DVD:


 
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azzey

Son Montuno
#77
If you're looking for Youtube videos, then check out my channel which has hundreds of Cuban Casino videos, as well as LA style.

Yoandy Villaurrutia is recommended, as becooloff has been posting the class videos for years now. Though I'm not sure there are any beginner videos.


Yoandy lives in Russia but is originally from Cuba and a very good dancer.

My personal favourite is Juan Jose Ortiz, who does the congress workshop circuit, but again you won't find anything below intermediate level videos.



Have you heard the expression "you are what you eat"? Well the same goes for Salsa videos. Don't watch crap. Most of the Salsa instruction videos on youtube are bad for you. Watching good dancers will eventually mean that some bits of that may come out in your dancing. If you're watching the right style that may help, but you can't learn dancing from just videos as you won't have the feel. Good instruction is very very important.
 
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vit

Son Montuno
#79
This video is pretty good for the Cuban basic step (at least for the guy):

Yeah, at least for the guy
For the girl, this is usual result in Europe - trying to enforce that cuban movement using the core, shoulders, arms etc, but not really using the body weight to do the job
Unfortunately, video quality is low, so it might not be that obvious
 

azzey

Son Montuno
#80
Be aware that all you see from famous dancers like Yanek Revilla, Yoandy, Alberto Valdez (alberto is a great Rumba instructor) and others on the congress circuit are not always presenting authentic Casino, from the standpoint of how it used to be danced. Dance and music is a fusion and so the dance continues to evolve as does music. This may not be helpful when you're trying to learn the basic moves and style of the dance.

e.g. body rolls in Casino? What the hell? LOL. A style gets quite skewed when presented for monetary reasons at a congress.

 
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