Cross Body Lead Issue

boraz

boraz

Changui
Hey everybody,
I'm in Italy right now, taking xBody Salsa on1 classes. They call it "Portorican Salsa", opposed to what is known here as "Cuban Salsa" (which is NOT pure Casino Style, but a weird mix of Casino and Xbody, but this doesn't matter right now).

Anyway, I've always thought the Italian "Portorican Salsa " was just regular Xbody salsa on1.
I mean.. the overall execution is the same, as well as the names of the moves...

It turns out my teacher and his assistants have a different opinion. They argue that what they teach is different from the xBody salsa on1 you find on the internet. Let me give you guys an example.

When I was taking Salsa classes in NY, they taught me to "open" at a 90° angle on the count of 1, when doing a Cross Body Lead , to free the slot so that the lady could walk through it. I definitely remember the teacher using the metaphor "open the door for her".

When I moved to Italy I started looking into salsa xBody on1 (the on2 timing is not popular here, so I had to adapt), and I checked various DVDs and online sources. I noticed that every single one of them taught the cross body lead in the same way, which was "opening at a 90° angle", but on the count of 3, because of the different timing. It was basically the same thing. (I remember checking strictly on1 sources such as Al Espinoza Dvds, and the "Salsa con Todo" online classes, as well as teachers who teach both on1 and on2, such as Oliver Pineda DVDs, and Shaka Brown Online classes).

Then I joined this class and the teacher is giving me a really hard time, because he says I open too much on the count of 3: according to him that's just a feature of the NY style, while in the "Portorican" salsa he teaches, you are supposed to just open at a 45° angle on the count of 3, and I guess you rotate more on the 5.

This is just an example.. they give me a hard time on other things too, like the body movement: I learned Cuban motion when I was in NY, and I think every kind of salsa should include some of it.. and of course they say that my movement is suitable for dancing "Cuban Salsa" , while it's really bad for the "Portorican Salsa", where you are supposed to keep a rigid posture.

What do you guys think? Should I join a different class?
 
There are different ways to do CBL, of course. In my venue (not very far from yours), it seems to be similar. Only one teacher is actually teaching it similar way as it looks like in NY style (although several other are dancing similar to NY style, but for some reason don't teach how they dance but they teach how they think they should teach). Both leader's and follower's steps are different

My personal preference is to dance it similar way like it is danced by various well known on2 dancers (and by mentioned teacher here), no matter am I dancing on1 or on2 - just feels better that way (to me), and I actually start opening even slightly earlier, starting rotating to the left during the first step (assuming on1). However, it all depends on your preferences
 
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Well if you don't open up, the follow will have to go around you. Nothing wrong with that, in general, but linear styles tend to use straighter lines.


boraz said:
What do you guys think? Should I join a different class?
Click to expand...

I suggest to check all teachers in the area. Also different teachers might have different strengths. Think of what you can learn from them.
 
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boraz said:
Then I joined this class and the teacher is giving me a really hard time, because he says I open too much on the count of 3: according to him that's just a feature of the NY style, while in the "Portorican" salsa he teaches, you are supposed to just open at a 45° angle on the count of 3, and I guess you rotate more on the 5.
Click to expand...
Rotating more on the 5 sounds impossible - you're stepping with your RF on 5, so there's no way to rotate the left side of your body out of the way.

boraz said:
This is just an example.. they give me a hard time on other things too, like the body movement: I learned Cuban motion when I was in NY, and I think every kind of salsa should include some of it.. and of course they say that my movement is suitable for dancing "Cuban Salsa" , while it's really bad for the "Portorican Salsa", where you are supposed to keep a rigid posture.
Click to expand...
Indeed - body movement is an important part of all forms of salsa that are in touch with their latino roots.

I've no idea if this teacher is typical of the way "Portorican Style" is taught in Continental Europe, but a few things sound a bit "off" here.

Smejmoon said:
I suggest to check all teachers in the area. Also different teachers might have different strengths. Think of what you can learn from them.
Click to expand...
+1

vit said:
Or other option, go to some bigger local salsa venue, spot who are good dancers and ask who was their teacher
Click to expand...
+1
 
boraz said:
Hey everybody,
I'm in Italy right now, taking xBody Salsa on1 classes. They call it "Portorican Salsa", opposed to what is known here as "Cuban Salsa" (which is NOT pure Casino Style, but a weird mix of Casino and Xbody, but this doesn't matter right now).

Anyway, I've always thought the Italian "Portorican Salsa " was just regular Xbody salsa on1.
I mean.. the overall execution is the same, as well as the names of the moves...

It turns out my teacher and his assistants have a different opinion. They argue that what they teach is different from the xBody salsa on1 you find on the internet. Let me give you guys an example.

When I was taking Salsa classes in NY, they taught me to "open" at a 90° angle on the count of 1, when doing a Cross Body Lead , to free the slot so that the lady could walk through it. I definitely remember the teacher using the metaphor "open the door for her".

When I moved to Italy I started looking into salsa xBody on1 (the on2 timing is not popular here, so I had to adapt), and I checked various DVDs and online sources. I noticed that every single one of them taught the cross body lead in the same way, which was "opening at a 90° angle", but on the count of 3, because of the different timing. It was basically the same thing. (I remember checking strictly on1 sources such as Al Espinoza Dvds, and the "Salsa con Todo" online classes, as well as teachers who teach both on1 and on2, such as Oliver Pineda DVDs, and Shaka Brown Online classes).

Then I joined this class and the teacher is giving me a really hard time, because he says I open too much on the count of 3: according to him that's just a feature of the NY style, while in the "Portorican" salsa he teaches, you are supposed to just open at a 45° angle on the count of 3, and I guess you rotate more on the 5.

This is just an example.. they give me a hard time on other things too, like the body movement: I learned Cuban motion when I was in NY, and I think every kind of salsa should include some of it.. and of course they say that my movement is suitable for dancing "Cuban Salsa" , while it's really bad for the "Portorican Salsa", where you are supposed to keep a rigid posture.

What do you guys think? Should I join a different class?
Click to expand...

There are loads of teachers claiming loads of different things. I guess it all depends on if you want to learn what they have to offer.

For On1 salsa you should, as you put it, "open" at a 90° angle on the count of 3. I have never seen the taught differently when teaching On1 or variations of it. If they teach a different variation of such a basic move god knows what else would be different.

The main consideration is that you may be limiting your dancer base if you learn this style.
 
terence said:
HUH ??.. thats the last thing you need to do, Salsa, is NOT B/room , and, P.R. style is " blended", It uses variety from many different dance sources
Click to expand...
That's what I thought but I don't know how many "scoldings" I have to endure in class, just because I add Cuban motion to my dancing. It's not that I'm doing it wrong, it's like according to their style I shouldn't do it, I should everything fairly rigid. And for the record, they DO look like ballroom dancers.

Smejmoon said:
Well if you don't open up, the follow will have to go around you. Nothing wrong with that, in general, but linear styles tend to use straighter lines.
Click to expand...

That is what I think every time they try to correct me, but what do I know, I'm just a student.

tallpaul said:
I've no idea if this teacher is typical of the way "Portorican Style" is taught in Continental Europe, but a few things sound a bit "off" here.
Click to expand...

From what I saw, in Italy people who dances "portorican style" tend to keep a rigid posture, and abhor Cuban motion. You guys have no idea how many times I heard things like "you are NOT dancing portorican style!" or "Did you use to dance Cuban style before?", just because I like to add Cuban motion to my dancing. It's really frustrating.
toan-hoang said:
There are loads of teachers claiming loads of different things. I guess it all depends on if you want to learn what they have to offer.

For On1 salsa you should, as you put it, "open" at a 90° angle on the count of 3. I have never seen the taught differently when teaching On1 or variations of it. If they teach a different variation of such a basic move god knows what else would be different.

The main consideration is that you may be limiting your dancer base if you learn this style.
Click to expand...
That's exactly what I thought...
vit said:
Or other option, go to some bigger local salsa venue, spot who are good dancers and ask who was their teacher
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I already go to the "best" teacher in my small town... God, I miss New York :D
 
Smejmoon said:
Well if you don't open up, the follow will have to go around you. Nothing wrong with that, in general, but linear styles tend to use straighter lines.
Click to expand...
Actually, teaching beginning follows that it's ok to go around the lead while he's blocking the slot seems like a really bad idea.
 
boraz said:
That's what I thought but I don't know how many "scoldings" I have to endure in class, just because I add Cuban motion to my dancing. It's not that I'm doing it wrong, it's like according to their style I shouldn't do it,

I should everything fairly rigid. And for the record, they DO look like ballroom dancers.



That is what I think every time they try to correct me, but what do I know, I'm just a student.


.
Click to expand...

Why am I not surprised ( the Shldr and "stiff " look ).... As to CM, be careful not to over emphasise the action. A mans CM needs to be more subtle .
And, for sure you are perceptive !
 
Salsa Student said:
My comment was referring to the OP who was talking about slot style dancing.
Click to expand...


Good. It looked like you are responding to my post. :)

Guess, tips how to fight teacher when you just arrive to new school won't be helpful for OP. Better think how to enjoy the dancing. But I have been wrong before.
 
Smejmoon said:
Good. It looked like you are responding to my post. :)

Guess, tips how to fight teacher when you just arrive to new school won't be helpful for OP. Better think how to enjoy the dancing. But I have been wrong before.
Click to expand...
Responding to your post, but in reference of the OP, how's that? :)
Actually, my advice would be to find another teacher.
 
boraz said:
Then I joined this class and the teacher is giving me a really hard time, because he says I open too much on the count of 3: according to him that's just a feature of the NY style, while in the "Portorican" salsa he teaches, you are supposed to just open at a 45° angle on the count of 3, and I guess you rotate more on the 5.

This is just an example.. they give me a hard time on other things too, like the body movement: I learned Cuban motion when I was in NY, and I think every kind of salsa should include some of it.. and of course they say that my movement is suitable for dancing "Cuban Salsa" , while it's really bad for the "Portorican Salsa", where you are supposed to keep a rigid posture.

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Interesting... are there any videos of them dancing? :)

boraz said:
Should I join a different class?
Click to expand...
If there are other classes you could try, it would never hurt to try and see if you like the other teacher's method better...
 
Smejmoon said:
Guess, tips how to fight teacher when you just arrive to new school won't be helpful for OP. Better think how to enjoy the dancing. But I have been wrong before.
Click to expand...
It's not actually a "new school" for me.
I started dancing salsa in 2008, and this guy was my teacher back then. I completed the beginner level, but then I stopped dancing altogether. Last Year, when I moved to NY I started dancing again.. And it's kinda funny, I had forgotten everything about the previous teaching except for the Cross Body Lead. And I distinctly remember the same guy, back in 2008, teaching us to open at 90° , because when they taught it to us in NY, I was like "Cool, it's the same thing".
MacMoto said:
Interesting... are there any videos of them dancing? :)
Click to expand...
I don't have any video of them at the moment. Tomorrow I'm going to a social with them so I'll see what I can do.
 
Salsa Student said:
My comment was referring to the OP who was talking about slot style dancing.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily.
If this flavour of "Portorican Style" involves making the woman step out of the slot to go around the man, then clearly it's not as strict about the slot as the slot-style salsa that you and I would be used to.
Boraz's teacher has specifically said this style of dancing is different from Crossbody Salsa on1.

Whether this teacher's style represents:
  • A really popular approach to dancing Salsa in Italy
  • A truly "Portorican" style of dancing Salsa (as danced in Puerto Rico)
  • His own misinterpretation of slot style salsa
is hard to tell from here. (Especially since I've never danced in Italy or Puerto Rico).

But Boraz needs to decide whether he's limiting himself more by switching to this teacher's style - or by NOT switching to this teacher's style.
 
Incidentally, an Italian guy I know took classes in "Puerto Rican style" at home in Italy for some time. His experience of "Puerto Rican style" in Italy is slot-style Power2 salsa (-234-678)...
 
tallpaul said:
  • His own misinterpretation of slot style salsa
Click to expand...
I think this is it. I used to think he was the best teacher around, but I'm starting to realize he is not teaching us the "standard" basics, but he's own version. I don't know how I feel about this.
tallpaul said:
But Boraz needs to decide whether he's limiting himself more by switching to this teacher's style - or by NOT switching to this teacher's style.
Click to expand...

He teaches his own style, which is different from "the majority". I think I wanna conform to "the standards" when it comes to the basics.

tallpaul said:
Incidentally, an Italian guy I know took classes in "Puerto Rican style" at home in Italy for some time. His experience of "Puerto Rican style" in Italy is slot-style Power2 salsa (-234-678)...
Click to expand...
Yeah, they do that in the intermediate classes. You start on 1 in the beginner class, then you switch to the power 2 in the intermediate class. I guess the style is supposed to be the same though.
 
I may be wrong (Terence et al can correct me if am) - but as far as I understand in Puerto Rico don't they dance On2 by prepping on the 1 and 5, like in NY ET? I was under the impression that PR style is very similar to NY ET but in the other direction?
 
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