Can you have a great dance without a great song?

[JonesNikka]

I don't think you need a *great* song to have a great dance - dancing with someone you have amazing chemistry with can turn a pretty ordinary song into a memorable dance. But it is difficult to raise a truely aweful song (and I disagree with Nikka here - there are some stinking songs!) even with the best partner available.

Sometimes the best partner available can not compensate for the fact that some dancers have not developed the ability to express themselves to every song. It is just like some dancers who can not follow or lead at their best level when dancing a different style.

Also by the time a song makes it onto the radio or a DJ's playlist it must have pleased someone. Contrary to popular belief, DJ's do not play music out of the range of certain dancers only to mess with their style. All songs are good for something or for someone. I have to believe that a good dancer can make magic with any music.

 

[nowhiteshoes]

I would rather dance with an average dancer who does "feel it" in that instance.

I would always prefer an average dancer who is feeling it to an excellent dancer who isn't.

I would mostly prefer an average dancer who is feeling it to an excellent dancer who isn't.

me too. ive had a few elite dancers who've occasionally lowered their high standards ( ) to dance with me and given that bored look through out the dance. not a great feeling, makes me wish they'd said their usual ( no thanks).

 

[nowhiteshoes]

I don't think you need a *great* song to have a great dance - dancing with someone you have amazing chemistry with can turn a pretty ordinary song into a memorable dance. But it is difficult to raise a truely aweful song (and I disagree with Nikka here - there are some stinking songs!) even with the best partner available.

Contrary to popular belief, DJ's do not play music out of the range of certain dancers only to mess with their style.

how can you be so sure :twisted:

 

[JonesNikka]

...Contrary to popular belief, DJ's do not play music out of the range of certain dancers only to mess with their style.

how can you be so sure :twisted: [/quote]

Because a DJ's job is to keep the floor full. and the people dancing so they can get hot and buy drinks at the bar.
At least that is how it is supposed to work in a club. DJ's at socials are the only ones trying to "educate " their audience by playing songs that are difficult to dance to, all in the name of their "artistic integrity".

 

[bailarina]

great dance with bad song

I don't think its possible to have a truly great dance without a good song.

There is a salsero here with whom I have great dance chemistry, and we really tried to have a good dance with a bad song the other night: it just didn't make it to anything better than 'good'. Not great. Afterward we both admitted that the song sucked but we had tried to make the most out of it that we could.

So I do not think it's possible!!

 

[KP-salsa]

Re: great dance with bad song

I don't think its possible to have a truly great dance without a good song.

There is a salsero here with whom I have great dance chemistry, and we really tried to have a good dance with a bad song the other night: it just didn't make it to anything better than 'good'. Not great. Afterward we both admitted that the song sucked but we had tried to make the most out of it that we could.

So I do not think it's possible!!

I think your musical standards are too high. :lol:

 

[Flujo]

However, I've also found it more difficult to muster that spark when the music isn't compelling to me. Is it even worth the effort, if you know the dance won't be great?

Hear you on that one. Maybe being more selective in the songs you dance to leads to a better night overall?

I think it can be -- if, at the same time, you know that not every dance has to be great. Knowing that can actually free you up to enjoy the dance for whatever it is -- silly fun, learning, tutoring, social interaction -- without unrealistic expectations. Ironically, not trying to make the dance great could even make it easier to dance great dances!

Yes, agreed 100% .

Related to this, I've also found that when I make a breakthrough in dancing, I often retain some sentimental attachment to the song that was playing. In other words, because the dance was great, the song becomes great! I think a lot of why I came to appreciate salsa music -- which I didn't really care for at first -- was because of this sentimental attachment to songs. Eventually I learned to appreciate the songs independent of my breakthroughs, which then fueled further breakthroughs!

It's funny you should mention that. The same thing happens to me with Youtube videos. When I watch a video and am touched by the dancers or learn something really helpful, the song playing in the video soon becomes a favourite.

Excellent avatar by the way. :banana:

 

[rjoe92057]

When I was primarily a techinical turn pattern dancer then any song that I could pick up the 123 - 567 would be a good dance. I was not listening to the music but just keeping time and doing my moves.

Now that I dance more to the music, I need a "good" song. That lets me feel and react to the music. I am sure as I advance and my music tastes develop, the number of "good" songs will expand. But there will always be some songs better than others. The best dance will be to a song both you and your partner feel and one with whom you have a good connection.

 

[WessexSalsero]

I am now getting to the point (mainly thanks to reading this forum)
where I am almost willing the DJ on to play the most challenging tracks (i.e. rubbish lol).

It's another ideal to aspire to: being able to make any song come to life.

Again, I am not there yet but that's little wonder seeing as my default attitude
was to wait for a good song - 'good' meaning 'have heard and enjoyed it before'.
Old habits die hard!

 

[sweavo]

I paid a £15 cover to go dancing on Saturday night. The ambience was great, the people were friendly, and the barman served the perfect scotch. The class was a nice pattern. The show was stunning.

The music however. Oh MY GOD.

There was a small seeding of bachata and merengue which was fine, if only the rest of the music had been salsa.

The show was Salsology's latest mambo show, which I really rate. It left me in a really buoyant mood. "how do you follow that?!" said the MC. I quite agreed. So how did they follow it?

With a line dance.

To Michael Jackson.

Not even the salsa version of Michael Jackson.

When the next song was also MJ I went to the bathroom.

When I came back from the bathroom, a third MJ song was on. And my buoyancy was gone.

After I'd been sitting for a while wondering what the hell I was still doing there, I heard some real salsa come on, so I grabbed Kate from Salsology who is not only a wonderful technical dancer, but is enthusiastic and exudes friendliness, and had the dance of my weekend. A second mambo tune got me in the mood again... then back to fricken R&B salsa.

For the rest of the night there were at most two dura tracks in a row, though there were frequently runs of 3 or 4 barely-salsa-at-all tracks.

As I got grumpier people accused me of being a snob... I said not really. I just listen and I dance how the music makes me feel. This music doesn't make me want to dance salsa. If you order coffee and you get tea, does it make you a snob when you complain?

 

[terence]

This music doesn't make me want to dance salsa.


If you order coffee and you get tea, does it make you a snob when you complain?

Steve, its the same old problem.. catering to the masses; which reflects on an earlier topic, that the majority of dancers are subjected to music that " sells ".. unfortunately, its not always Salsa .

I,m in complete agreement with your sentiments .

 

[DaveFUK]

I paid a £15 cover to go dancing on Saturday night. The ambience was great, the people were friendly, and the barman served the perfect scotch. The class was a nice pattern. The show was stunning.

The music however. Oh MY GOD.

There was a small seeding of bachata and merengue which was fine, if only the rest of the music had been salsa.

The show was Salsology's latest mambo show, which I really rate. It left me in a really buoyant mood. "how do you follow that?!" said the MC. I quite agreed. So how did they follow it?

With a line dance.

To Michael Jackson.

Not even the salsa version of Michael Jackson.

When the next song was also MJ I went to the bathroom.

When I came back from the bathroom, a third MJ song was on. And my buoyancy was gone.

After I'd been sitting for a while wondering what the hell I was still doing there, I heard some real salsa come on, so I grabbed Kate from Salsology who is not only a wonderful technical dancer, but is enthusiastic and exudes friendliness, and had the dance of my weekend. A second mambo tune got me in the mood again... then back to fricken R&B salsa.

For the rest of the night there were at most two dura tracks in a row, though there were frequently runs of 3 or 4 barely-salsa-at-all tracks.

As I got grumpier people accused me of being a snob... I said not really. I just listen and I dance how the music makes me feel. This music doesn't make me want to dance salsa. If you order coffee and you get tea, does it make you a snob when you complain?

That's exactly why I didn't rush to go! I knew the music would be a heap of poo!
It's not the only veune around our area i.e UK that promote nights like these. How can they call it a 'Salsa' night?
Most of the punters are from classes where teachers actually teach to this sort of music so their students think that this is what the music is about.

They think they've been drinking real coffee for years when in fact it's tea. Their palets get accustomed to the taste that they've been told is 'coffee'. When they eventually get to drink real Coffee they don't like the taste because it doesn't taste like they're used to and complain they want proper 'coffee'

I'm personally of the opinion that without a half decent track I can't have a good dance.
Without the music to draw me to the floor it doesn't work, perhaps I'm a music snob - if I am then I'm proud of it. I don't need/want great tracks all night I just want proper Salsa music. Even with a partner I'm really connected to I'm also connected to the music. I can make up for having a less than good connection to my partner but a less than good connection to the music......it ain't happening.

 

[WessexSalsero]

I don't know whether this R&B Salsa can be described as Salsa for the masses -
it appears popular in some places up North (judging by posts on here only)
but I have never come across it in London.
What's the story up there?? I remember the Salsa to be perfectly tasty in old Manc-Town.

Personally, I would agree that a non-Salsa version of MJ is a strange choice
but on this special occasion I'd let it go.

Out of interest, do you recall an example of 'barely Salsa' music?
You probably don't want to...

 

[terence]

.
I remember the Salsa to be perfectly tasty in old Manc-Town.

Personally, I would agree that a non-Salsa version of MJ is a strange choice
but on this special occasion I'd let it go.


.

I know music is "subjective" but that was not my experience on 3 occasions.


ANY version would be strange !

 

[sweavo]

I don't know whether this R&B Salsa can be described as Salsa for the masses -
it appears popular in some places up North (judging by posts on here only)
but I have never come across it in London.
What's the story up there?? I remember the Salsa to be perfectly tasty in old Manc-Town.

Personally, I would agree that a non-Salsa version of MJ is a strange choice
but on this special occasion I'd let it go.

Out of interest, do you recall an example of 'barely Salsa' music?
You probably don't want to...

First: my litmus test for salsa is whether it has clave & tumbao. That's the minimum, and is pretty inclusive, allowing songs with cumbia sections, '50s mambo, '70s NY salsa, timba, songo, commercial salsa.

For a song to count as "really real" it has to include some bell parts, proper syncopation of lead lines on the 2 and 3 sides of the clave, and should have solos, a coro/pregon (call and response between singer and chorus), and monas (layered repeated brass). This excludes a lot of romantica, which often drops those harder sections in favour of a pop song structure and hooky refrain.

Good music in manchester: anything connected to salsology will have good music according to this asthetic.

Examples of pop salsa:

At the most acceptable end of the scale is "Mi Vida Es Un Carnaval" by Celia Cruz. This is really a cumbia but pops in a piano montuno in the middle. Then we get to the just-tolerable level with Alex Wilson's "RnB Latino" which has a clave and sections of authentic-sounding brass and piano, to which there is added an accesible but problematic backbeat. Best way to dance to this is some kinda r&b /hip hop styling until the latin bits then burst into salsa.

... and then carry on right off the scale through Alex Wilson's "Show Me" or Shakira's "Hips don't lie" or Michael Jackson's you rock my world (not even the salsa version).

Finally, and I only know one DJ who will play this, there is Mark Ronson's Valerie which fine for a frug but is about as salsa as the Cure. But that DJ frequently claps "along" to the music with the wrongest clave I've heard in my life so he's a bit of an outlier.

 

[WessexSalsero]

I know music is "subjective" but that was not my experience on 3 occasions.

I recall you shared a list of songs you like to play on The Other Place -
have not had the time yet but I will check them out as some point.
Am curious what you consider tasty Salsa!


Glad I asked, sweavo, and thanks for the no-punches-pulled reply!
It gave me a few answers to questions I didn't realise I had,
e.g. I always thought 'Mi Vida..' sounded odd but didn't know why.
I was also under the impression that Alex Wilson was regarded as something of a
plinky-plonky demi-god by the Salsa cognoscenti.

In a year's time I might enquire what a proper syncopation of lead lines is

 

[sweavo]

In a year's time I might enquire what a proper syncopation of lead lines is

I'm feeling overdue for a post with ASCII art in it anyway, so you're getting it now

If you clap your hands on all the beats 1 thru 8, and sing the vocal or brass part from a (say, classic '70s) salsa tune, you'll notice that a lot of the time you sing in between the claps. This is syncopation. If you want to work out whether the song is 2:3 or 3:2 then it helps to know that if beat 1 is hit exactly, then it's probably 2:3, and if beat 5 is hit exactly, then it's probably 3:2. The first beat of the 3 side is rarely sounded. Instead this note is sort of pulled early, and plays on the half-beat before the first beat.

Here's the first two lines of lloraras by oscar d'leon:

1   &   2   &   3   &   4   &   1   &   2   &   3   &   4   &
        X       X               X           X           X          <- clave
    se      que tu  no      quie -          res             que
yo          a   ti      te  quie -          ra

notice the first syllable of "quieres" lands on the "and of 4" rather than the 1, same with "quiera". This is a hint that you are entering the 3-side of the clave at that point. The "yo" on beat one is pretty much a dead giveaway that that is the 2-side.

Same with mambo bell pattern and piano montuno:

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 & 7 & 8 &
  x x x X   x x X   X   x x x X 
  x   x   x   x x   x x   x   x

You can tell that's 3:2 because nothing sounds on 1, but they both play on 5 and on the & of 8.

 

[sweavo]

Glad I asked, sweavo, and thanks for the no-punches-pulled reply!

Heh, just calling it like I see it.

I always thought 'Mi Vida..' sounded odd but didn't know why.

I should clarify that I really like that celia cruz track and I have fond memories of it being a favourite of mine when I was a salsa noob. It barely passes my litmus test but still makes me want to move in a latin way so it's all good. Before I knew this was cumbia, I used to call it "oompah style salsa" .. and that's how you can tell a cumbia, it has a distinctive BOMtitty BOMtitty going on.

I was also under the impression that Alex Wilson was regarded as something of a plinky-plonky demi-god by the Salsa cognoscenti.

I think he's doing great things with Cuban music and crossover, he understands clave and is not afraid to innovate. I mean, RnB Latino isn't salsa, but then he did name the track "RnB Latino". It's not like he's pulling some big fraud there.

 

[DaveFUK]

I don't know whether this R&B Salsa can be described as Salsa for the masses -
it appears popular in some places up North (judging by posts on here only)
but I have never come across it in London.
What's the story up there?? I remember the Salsa to be perfectly tasty in old Manc-Town.

Personally, I would agree that a non-Salsa version of MJ is a strange choice
but on this special occasion I'd let it go.

Out of interest, do you recall an example of 'barely Salsa' music?
You probably don't want to...

I think most cities have their share of non-salsa salsa nights. I've been to them in London as well but it does seem to occure more out in the provinces!

I've heard non-salsa Salsa played up and down the Country no City seems to be exempt (I've danced in loads of UK Cities but yes this is a sweeping generalisation )

For me so much of the responsability lies firmly on the shoulders of the teachers. I know of one teacher in the North that has actual said she doesn't like salsa music and my gut feeling is she isn't the only one!

Keep Salsa Real.

P.S. I go with sweavo's description of Salsa

 

[DaveFUK]

I should clarify that I really like that celia cruz track and I have fond memories of it being a favourite of mine when I was a salsa noob. It barely passes my litmus test but still makes me want to move in a latin way so it's all good. Before I knew this was cumbia, I used to call it "oompah style salsa" .. and that's how you can tell a cumbia, it has a distinctive BOMtitty BOMtitty going on.

That song is so popular at some clubs! I hate it!