Book says on2 meaning first step at 2?
- Thread starter MamboJazz
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What do you say is the difference between the contratiempo and ETon2 timing?
Stepping wise, he clearly starts the dance with ETon2 steps.
Other thing is how the follower steps and weight transfers also affects his steps and its timing.
To me in the P2 video, as far as I can see the man starts his forward step on count 1 and lands it on the count 2. That is feet has pushed off the ground and already in air on count 1. Nothing wrong with that I agree with @MamboJazz. With the tempo of music in salsa generally and way people step during dancing, watching the feet is futile. You can play with the stepping. You can double time it. You can hold the step. You can only step certain beats. Dancing is not straight 123..567 or 234..678 stepping all the time.
But they also have space. “Influence” is a bit loaded word. Locally certain style, moves, or way of dancing dialects are common. The dancers themselves may have never danced what an on-looker might construe as the infuence. In the other hand dancer may actually actively dance something else (e.g. swing) and consciously bring its influence into say salsa dancing. Both are influences. But in a very different way.
We can say most salsa moves and dancing we seen for the last 20-30 years is very heavily influenced by the hustle from 70s. And swing before that. A salsa dancer would have no knowledge of hustle.
congress and videos, thankfully do not represent the whole spectrum of salsa dancing universe. They only represent a small sliver. Many videos also bring performative elements into the social dancing. Most videos are used by pros as PR and to increase their business. How many ads and depiction in general reflects real life ?
Due to social media, the pros are able to afford low cost publicity unlike say in 2000s. When I see a few clips of some famous couple from 50s era, they too are being flamboyant. Any era, any dance of that time’s stars always contained a lot of showbiz. I am very sure actual dance floor was very different. In short we can’t judge what average social dancing is or was by watching the stars perform their shitck.
Uploaded 6 years ago by the lady partner of the couple.
The quality of the video and the way it is shot suggests pre-phone camera era. The light is low. A low quality phone camera can also create that kind of footage.
I think it mostly likely shot using camcorder (with tape) which people had in the 90sand early 2000s.
Someone from NYC familiar with the Broadway club (I believe it changed locations at least twice) - the stage, the signage behind it and the couple seen announcing might be able to place the time frame better.
P.S. - I should have done it before writing above. I just checked her channel for other videos. There are some from the 90s salsa. She seemed to have later taken up Tango.
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MAMBO_CEC
Son Montuno
About the two video clips I posted. Firstly both timings are based on assumptions about the dancers. The first video clip, with Dr Mike and Frances, was recorded I would say in the early 1990's. Both Dr Mike and Frances danced at the the Palladium, where Dr. Mike was a featured dancer, so my assumption was that he would be dancing P2 because that was the prevaling style there. My second assumption was that Eddie Torres Jnr, would be dancing ETon2 for obvious reasons. Normally when he's asked to define his style of dancing he always says Mambo. To me the the main similarity between the two dancers based on just observation is that they both break on2, how do I know this? I am listening to both songs and looking where there feet land in accordance with the conga slap. Dr. Mike Style is more staccato in keeping with contratiempo timing for classic mambo. He starts off his dance by stepping forward on2, another nod to classic mambo timing, his turn patterns are very rudimentary as compared to the ETon2's turn patterns. Eddie Jnr starts off his dance with the classic ETon2, Left foot back on 1 followed by right foot back on2, but he also incorporates some Afro-Cuban son cadence in his dancing, but most of his dance is done primarily in the slot. Both dancers at some point break away from their partners to do shines. Based on the two dances I can see a clear evolution from Mambo to Eton2( Which some people call modern Mambo). With regard to @MamboJazz's point about On2 being the first step on 2, that is correct if we are truly dancing Mambo (Palladium P2) and not the Eton2/Euro on2 that everyone today is labelling as Mambo.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
In ET instruction video,
Mambo D dances like that and he is the finally demonstrator for all the moves
The book is correct. They failed only in not completing the sequence to beat 4.
"We say we dance on3 because our first step is on 3."
"We say we dance on4 because our first step is on 4."
Salsa dancing is mathematics where you perform 3 sequential steps by marking your first step on a specific 4/4 beat.
On1 (Mark on 1) LA, ET On2, NY On2, Salsa Cubana, Casino
On2 (Mark on 2) LA On2, Palladium, Son
On3 (Mark on 3) Casino
On4 (Mark on 4) Power2
On what beat you perform the break (change of direction) and what step pattern you choose is not relevant regardless how it makes you feel. As you can see the trouble makers are ET On2 and NY On2 because they try to ignore when you mark our first step. You can either dance "a tiempo" or "contra tiempo". Power2 gets a pass even though they start dancing on 4 because there "2" in Power"2" could imply "contra tiempo".
Just because a concept is popular does not mean it is right or should be accepted as such.
The longer you dance and the more you study it the more you realize how silly concepts like "Dancing On2 that actually starts on 1" are not necessary and only cause confusion.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Joel and Maria from musalsa online. Mambo D in the Et nightclub instructional video (vol 2 near the end he us dancing like that),
The move our Latin Thing
Right. I was wondering about OP's since corrected suggestion of Power2 ~ on 4.
I had seen this, too, and although I didn't like the title I found he has a useful approach and gives some good exercises.
The approach is similar to how some WCS instructors get the beginners started. Instead of counting, they start by getting the beginners to move the feet to the two rhythms in WCS.
I can’t remember salsa instructors in group classes use this approach. They rush through the students without explaining the rhythm. Tumbao rhythm or Clave rhythm is explained later. Therefore students end of chasing now to find 1 (most common question in salsa dancing). That is when the get introduced to clave and tumbao to help how to find the 1. Which is a bit of backwards I think - you get started by counting, and then you discover the rhythm because you want to be on the right count. That approach seems so natural in salsa learning that no one questions it. And then the dancers get stuck to dancing by the count. The rest is the history.
He is also right on the ETon2. It is best to mark 2,3 and 6,7 (in your mind). So your steps are pa pa toon-toon (or kum-kum). The first pa is the break step (slap of the conga). Second pa is your 3 (or 7). Once you emphasis pa pa (2,3 or 6,7), your next step can vary. It can be on KUM-Kum (8&), or Kum-KUM (8&) or after kum-kum (1). This is all academic (talking in rhythm is easier to explain than using the count). In actual dancing it depends on the synch between you and your partner where in 8&1 spectrum you actually step. The pedantics might insist to consistently chose one of the three (8, &, 1). How in reality it floats depending on how dancers are reacting to the music. It is not just about the beat (expressed as count), but how long or short you hold that beat driven by the pulse of the music. It changes your expression. If you are marking 2,3 (or 6,7), I never seen follower ever questioning or puzzled by where your next step (1 and 8 going by the count) land.
I'm curious if someone has actually danced with him. Do we have members from Colorado? His texts are computer generated, and I didn't see any video of him dancing with some other person or socially. Nor we have a single common facebook friend.
21st century internet, especially recent evolution, pushes me more and more offline.
He does seem to have popped out of nowhere onto my feed, clearly good at the algorithm.
Same here. He just suddenly appeared out of nowhere and is now inundating my feed. I don't care whether he is a good social dancer. He's obviously not advertising himself as a great dancer. His schtick is dispelling myths and appealing to people with timing issues (which is a lot)
Reminds me a bit of Captain Salsa before he got exposed.
All the best to him. This is his way of finding students so nothing wrong with that.
But I do have issues with his sense of fashion.
I've heard of the guy going back a few years, but as a DJ not a dance instructor.
Calling the authenticity police because of his use of "QQS".
I only watched this video. I couldn’t tell if he is an instructor, because I can’t remember if there was anything in the video indicating that.
A non-instructor could make that type of video too. What I liked was the way he was breaking down the movement for different dances. The other was his coverage of different ways. Many people are not exposed to variety of ways that salsa is danced. Giving this type of overarching overview is really good. He kept it simple and effective without getting to dense.
Whether he took AI assistance to do it is immaterial since I think this is better than many other videos or explanations I seen on this topic.
Personally I thought his use of “QQS” was appropriate and useful to get the point he was making across. He already said that he would introduce the count later.
Especially when demonstrating son dancing, the “sqq” was very useful. He was also mapping it to clave and tumbao rhythm. Later on he shows it to the count. If I was a beginner this would have clarified a lot for me.
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1derpalm
Son Montuno
I like it. Reminds me of the Poplockers or Camp Lo in the video Luchini.