DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Says who? I think it's better to maintain timing.
In the US: maybe. Outside the US: very unlikely.
Book says on2 meaning first step at 2?
- Thread starter MamboJazz
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Says who? I think it's better to maintain timing.
What does it have to do with US?
Follows dance to random timings that leads come up to all the time. They rarely have a choice in this regard and few insist on changing timing.
P2 is quite popular timing.
If you prefer some particular stepping, you have to lead it. Taking her wishes and capabilities in consideration of course.
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P2 means pause at 1 and 5, that feels very different. I have no experience trying to lead that to followers, but I doubt they will not stare at me in despair.
It's true I can lead on2 to most on1 followers and they don't mind. Only in rare cases they blocked. But on1 and on2 both have pauses at 4 and 8, so there is a common ground.
When falling from on2 into on1 I quickly get snatchy looks from experienced followers, they notice and don't like it.
Timing to what? It is freestyle. You are expressing the music.
Read the threads on whether on2 dancers step on 8 or 8& increase of 1 when dancing on2. There is a lot of discussion on it with videos and that many known dancers step more on 8& rather than 1, then break on 2. That kind of blends ETon2 and P2.
When dancing sometimes I can drift from on2 to on1. It can happen due to various reasons during the flow of the dance, but I will get back on2. For example if a follower is late coming out of a turn, you don’t want to disturb the flow of the dance and the connection to just get back on2 right in the next bar. If you look around when dancing you might notice some people might be half a beat early and some half a beat late compared to you. The best way is when you step 6,7 for the CBL (dancing on 2), see others where there 6,7 is. You will be synch in with some and not with others. Most on2 leads will start the first turn for the followers on the count 1. Watch that too. Some leads will drift going into the break step and after but will start the turn more or less on count 1.
I strongly recommend you learning contratiempo (son timing). This will become very useful and it's sexy, smooth, elegant, and ladies love it. And you'll be able to dance Cuban salsa automagically.
Then in real life crossbody parties, you intermix that with P2 depending on the changes in music. Also keep backward/forward directions consistent to ET2, for less confusion.
I dance Son, but only sideways. I forgot that it's the same rhythm actually. These theoretical discussions can be confusing, sometimes one isn't aware of what one is doing. Recently our WCS instructor explained slowly some strange hand movement inside the followers palm. I had no idea what he was talking about. Then it turned out he just meant the hand change for an outside turn. I do this since more than a decade, but fast and subconsciously.
So I have to try that Son step moving fore- and backwards - and for putting some oil into the fire: so P2 is actually Son?
No, but step timing is the same. If I understand correctly Razzmatazz (p2) and Eddie Torres (et2) danced with step-step-together( stop) . Kinda bumpy and nowadays I've met only one good dancer who dances like that in NYC.
nowadays preference is for smoother dancing, so son fits better. Also when going back and forth feet pass each other and doesn't stop next to each other. Unless steps are really small.
Also I'd say upper body is more important nowadays in son. Align that to bassline.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Expressing the music is the exact reason I prefer on 2. That remains the case in shines.
But you do what works for you.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
In the US linear style is king. Outside the US it's more likely to be Cuban. I think on 2 is better known on the linear scene than contratiempo (under whatever name) is on the Cuban scene. So I suspect that in the US dancers are far more likely to be aware of the existence of on 2.
I have seen numerous people in the UK who have danced salsa for 10 or 20 years and have only ever been taught that on 1 is the way to dance salsa. They therefore assume that any deviation from that must be wrong.
(I also know numerous dancers in the UK who dance on 2.)
Obviously the demographic at congresses is very different to salsa at a regional level.
In the UK it's very rare and, as stated above, some followers like it but many have been taught that if it's not on 1 it's wrong. The fact that so few 'salsa' events nowadays play music that is suitable for on 2/contratiempo exacerbates the matter, as even the leads who know such timing probably won't bother with it because none of the music is heavily son-influenced.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
That's a technique choice that can be done to any timing. Yes feet next to each other in the pause was the norm in the mambo era, but one foot slightly ahead of the other can also be done in P2 timing (and most of us would say it's better that way).
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
More or less. I've never learnt son but according to posts on this forum, there is more stress on the 4 in son. And apparently - shudder - in Cuba many dancers nowadays dance son on 1.
On2 in dancing specifically refers to breaking on count 2 (and count 6). That is change of direction (in son too). It accents the upbeats. Unless you mean something else. How according to do you do shines on2 work exactly. In most of the classes and workshops shines are choreographed. Shines are not only about footwork. Body movement and arms also get used to accent music while the feet might be marking the beats. You can’t willy nilly do shines learnt in the class to any music. Because when you learn them in the class, they were set to specific music phrase from a song.
You can accent multiple things in the music when doing the shines. You can accent the beat you want, the clave, a particular instrument, a melody line, etc.
During the live music set, the best part to shines is during percurrsion heavy parts. You are doing footwork to the percussion hits more than anything else. If I change the direction on the count 1 and hit the count 2 (accent it with some movement) is that shine on2 or on1? Accenting the beat when shining can be done in many different ways using different parts of the body.
Hence classifying shines as on1 or on2 is only a teaching tool and not an actual thing in my books. In either case you have to deconstruct those shines when dancing. Your shines can express music and accent say second and sixth counts. Would you call that on2. What if I am expressing clave hits with my shines (many dancers do that), how can you justify that as shining on2 (or on1)? - you could do that with feet movement, with chest pops, with shimmies, with rolls, etc, and any combination, including your feet not moving at all or planted in place. Or I could accent the downbeats if there is an instrument loudly playing those. Depending on the phrase of the music too, you can decide how you want to express it.
How do you dance shines on2 only? Care to explain?
Man, you're idealizing US. Mostly people just dance random stuff. Video below.
When you get further from native salsa culture, then people get uptight about proper ways and rules and regulations.
And now with video culture every salsa dancer who cares has seen on2 dancing even if they can't spell it out. YouTube algorithms will force you to see it. On2 gets taught in all continents and even on islands like GB. I've seen it myself in person. I danced with bunch of people from UK on2 2 weeks ago.
Whether it is salsa or tango, the people most relax about the “rules” are the natives. Whether they dance boringly or extravagantly, there is a lot of idolization. Majority natives do it for fun and don’t it seriously like the foreign converts
I find begginner to intermediate leads often end up on P2, not realising they're on P2! (Most in the UK outside London only know of on1 and have no clue any other timings exist). Imho it's because some music it just makes more sense, the 2 is stronger, so people just drift towards it. I'd guess that's why you find beginners followers pick it up till it gets trained out of them!
I much prefer P2 to on1 so I have no complaints when this happens, and if I can I try to nudge the timing that way.
I've also danced with on1 dancers who have ended up on ETon2 by mistake who then 'correct' themselves back to on1. This all adds to my theory that for a lot of salsa music on2 is more natural, and on1 is a dance school imposed thing. Also to my theory that seeing salsa purely in terms of 123 567 has ruined salsa musicality.
+1; I often wonder if some classes make dancing better or worse
I think it's can be a good tool to teach beginners who are clueless. The trouble is when even advanced dancers get stuck on only knowing 123 567 and you end up with whole scenes thinking that's the only correct way to dance.
This along with quick quick slow are crutches that prohibit musicality.
I wish all schools adopted teaching dancing to the conga. At least that would include some rudimentary musical education.
Where the hell does QQS fit with Salsa music? Short answer: It doesn't. It's a ballroom convention.
