Are we really witnessing the death of the forward break?

[elanimal]

I think it is a good attempt but the main issue is that we cannot use this approach unless we know the person and their background. So we cannot use it eg when we watch someone new on a video or at a club! It is also very subjective because what looks natural to you may not be the same for me or someone else.

I prefer the subjective simplification because it's straight up laughable to define a dancer, especially a leader, as strictly a 'street dancer' based on never having taken a class. For one, people love to downplay how much they practice or what classes they've taken. Not everyone, but I've met a few. Second, why call them street dancers and obfuscate, when you can just call them dancers who've never taken a class. If you're so interested in being clear, then let's be clear. Street dancer as you've defined it is confusing and extremely unrealistic.

I largely agree with her assessments too. I'm not sure I like the term 'street style' anyway, but it might work better than saying they look relaxed, natural, or effortless, because Oliver achieves a level of all those things but something looks too... 'studied.'

I've already used this term, actually, to describe Erick Berninzon's dancing... sprezzatura. "Studied carelessness, especially as a characteristic quality or style of art or literature." Or, smooth. I'd put Salomon in that category. Milton Cobo more in the 'students of street,' jeje. It's actually quite useful and interesting to think about...

 

[Live2dance]

I prefer the subjective simplification because it's straight up laughable to define a dancer, especially a leader, as strictly a 'street dancer' based on never having taken a class. For one, people love to downplay how much they practice or what classes they've taken. Not everyone, but I've met a few. Second, why call them street dancers and obfuscate, when you can just call them dancers who've never taken a class. If you're so interested in being clear, then let's be clear. Street dancer as you've defined it is confusing and extremely unrealistic.

I largely agree with her assessments too. I'm not sure I like the term 'street style' anyway, but it might work better than saying they look relaxed, natural, or effortless, because Oliver achieves a level of all those things but something looks too... 'studied.'

I've already used this term, actually, to describe Erick Berninzon's dancing... sprezzatura. "Studied carelessness, especially as a characteristic quality or style of art or literature." Or, smooth. I'd put Salomon in that category. Milton Cobo more in the 'students of street,' jeje. It's actually quite useful and interesting to think about...

I never gave my definition. I just said Oliver for me is not a street dancer. And I agree with you. I don't like the term. I also said that KKKk attempt was good. I just think its subjective and needs background knowledge.

I don't have a definition but I was thinking along lines of presentational elements in their dancing. If I see extended lines, styling, etc then for me it is not a street dancer. So if they are doing comps or shows they are definately not a street dancer for me. But again I acknowledge that my attempt is not waterproof.

 

[elanimal]

I never gave my definition. I just said Oliver for me is not a street dancer. And I agree with you. I don't like the term. I also said that KKKk attempt was good. I just think its subjective and needs background knowledge.

I don't have a definition but I was thinking along lines of presentational elements in their dancing. If I see extended lines, styling, etc then for me it is not a street dancer. So if they are doing comps or shows they are definately not a street dancer for me. But again I acknowledge that my attempt is not waterproof.

Then is a matter of definition. For me street means not studio trained. I guess for you it means a type of style.

 

[vit]

So it turns out we don't need that word here anyway ...

 

[Live2dance]

Yes because most studios will teach you presentational elements. For example the idea in inter BR latin that you should have two straight legs is a presentational element. That is what BR studios teach. The same in ballet I believe! As I said my definition is not waterproof!

 

[vit]

A bad teacher can leave you in the dark, that's for sure.

But from what I've seen, all dancers who are self aware go through those stages no matter the quality of instruction. Actually, especially when the classes are good, they are able to explain so many details, that that's what happens and makes them feel like worse dancers, momentarily.

The better the instruction, actually, the more time you spend cycling through this, and going through stage 2... consciously aware of all the stuff you need to fix, and all the stuff you need to keep while you're patching up everything else.

There are also the people, like dissonant pointed out, that have received quality instruction and are filled with great knowledge, and because of that think they're much better than they really are. These people typically don't see themselves on tape often if at all. Dancing knowledge isn't always reflected in your actual dancing. But I digress.

I'm aware of that. Theoretical knowledge means nothing for the dancer. It gets the value once it's transferred to our muscle memory or whatever it is called

In salsa classes I attended I actually didn't get much theory (BR is known for that) and part of that was a kind of "invention" of instructors, many times with various contradictions and was leaving confusion overall. So I was more happy with classes with as little theory as possible (had enough of it in BR I danced previously, where it was actually better because teachers were better), but very valuable for me were classes where instructors danced with us and offered other kinds of help in that sense, trying to make diagnosis why something isn't working and finding the cure for it. Many times things just go wrong and instructor should be able to cope with that and make correction in any possible way. But rare instructors are that good and like/want to do that, in bigger class it's actually impossible, so in many cases people (followers at least) get more habits than improvement

 

[Live2dance]

There are so many ways to make an uncomfortable (The apologying low-self-esteem type) follow feel good (Got no time ot elaborate ATM), but while I do say alot: "My fault",
I disagree that it's allways the man that's on the worng.

I do agree, that most of the time, when it's the girl's fault, it is also the guy's as well. (Because while she's "to blame", he could've seen things coming and make that not-happen to begin with. I.E: Spin a girl who can't spin, forcing hard routines on a girl who can't keep up and stay balanced),

BUT

1) If a girl dangerously hijacks / follows unxpectedly incorrectly, and something bad (Which you weren't supposed to be able to predict) happens - you can't be at fault here. (I had one serious incident with that type, and I swear - I could've never forseen it, nor "save" her on timee. By the time she did it had already been way too late. I'm glad no one god injured, but it was...that close. That girl later screamed at me and gave me a horrible lecture.

(When I dance On2, and the girl suddenly breaks back on the 1 by mistake, I stop my movement and harden my left arm (holding her right) and keep it at place, like a strong wall. As a result the follower feels stronger resistance the more she goes forward, so usually they "meet the wall" on the 3, step backwards on the 5, and then break back on the 6. Fixed!~ Works like a charm. Everytime...)

Except that one time, in an On2 exclusive party,
when the girl suddenly took a huuuuuge step backwards on the 1, which I absolutely didn't lead. She seriously launched herself forward. Then I did my usual thing to gradually absorb her force and redirect her back,
but in complete contrary to my lead, she kept going forward, threw my hand and procceeded in a beautifully done free-spin...ending with her nose about a CM (I am not exaggerating here) away from a different follower.

Against my lead, she stepped backwards on the wrong bit, big time, created huge tension, then against my lead she marched forward, and against my lead threw my hand and started spinning...This was so unpredictable, and happened so fast, and with such momentum - I could not catch her on time (nor see it coming).

But I guess it's always the guy's fault.

Many Cuban-Salsa girls who are trained to break back on1 actually CAN follow a: "Forward-forward-forward" type of leading pretty well.
But once in a while, a girl may go auto-pilot or lose concentratio nfo a sec and then break back, sometimes even if you actively lead her somewhere else. If that happens and the girl bumps into another couple, then again - I rarely have enough time to save them. (But I dance a really relaxed Casino, and stay away from frezny-mode couples, so never has it ended in injury).


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2) Girls should know how to maintain their balance. That's an important technical skill and if they can't do it (And therefore not look good) you can't say it's my fault. It's not something I ca ntake responsibility for.

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I like to find my faults, and even when it's the girl's fault, I like to see how I as a lead could've done something in advance to prevent it. (This is: "My fault" for not being good enough not to make the girl be at fault, maybe?)

I find it educational (for me) and it helps me improve...

But when a girl goes: "It's always his fault" and takes it seriously, she actually does the opposite.

I think that the: "It's always the guys fault" mantra is a disservice to the girl.

You are totally right. I mentioned that there is an exception to the rule but I forgot to say what it is. So the rule is "It is always the man's/lead's fault UNLESS the follow does not follow the lead". So in your first example it is not your fault. On the second example (girls' balance) if you take the girl and you see she is not ok balance wise and you give her a triple spin ending with hand behind her back then it is your fault if it does not work. Exagerating! But honestly unless I know the follow from before it usually takes me a few bars at the beginning to test their level and then I adapt. Even if I have to dance with no turns or spins for a whole song. Just basics, open breaks, side steps and a smile if she is on time.

 

[kbitten]

I don't have to know someone background to say if he or she looks natural or not! Most of us can see that, aparently you live2dance are the only one having doubts of a lot of things that are clear to most! You said you did 'linear' classes but I am starting to doubt, cause if you did, you wouldnt ask why it's important to do a fwd bwd basic! It IS a basic...

 

[Live2dance]

I don't have to know someone background to say if he or she looks natural or not! Most of us can see that, aparently you live2dance are the only one having doubts of a lot of things that are clear to most! You said you did 'linear' classes but I am starting to doubt, cause if you did, you wouldnt ask why it's important to do a fwd bwd basic! It IS a basic...

Then how do you know if someone has trained to look natural? If you did not know Pineda's background why would you place him there? Oh because you have that eye!?!? You know and all else not. This is your attitude. Only you know and the rest are trolls. Sorry not with me!

As for the bwd and fwd step I never said it is not important nor that it is dead. But the videos are clear. Even the latest one in the social dancing. I counted what, 3 classical fwd breaks when on hold. Even the Uly guy did 4 fwd breaks within 10-15s routine (dancing his on1/Au2). Some others seem to do almost zero. And this is especially the case with ET2 dancers. So it is you who should explain, not me! Ciao bella!

 

[SoceN]

I had another look and I can only say that on 31, 34 he is stepping on 4 then breaking on 2. Now on 37 he seems to step 4,1 and break on 2!!! At the end again he steps on 4 and breaks on 2.

I stop there.

In all of those examples, he steps on 1 or 5 with a delayed 2 or 6. This is how it is danced in NY on2 when dancing to the clave.

 

[Live2dance]

In all of those examples, he steps on 1 or 5 with a delayed 2 or 6. This is how it is danced in NY on2 when dancing to the clave.

I think some people have a YouTube method to slow down image and sound. If they can do us a favor and slow this one down then we could see it more clearly.

Do you have other clips of him doing ET on2?

 

[SoceN]

I think some people have a YouTube method to slow down image and sound. If they can do us a favor and slow this one down then we could see it more clearly.

Do you have other clips of him doing ET on2?

You can slow the video down yourself by going to the gear at the bottom right of the video and changing the speed.

But regardless of the speed of the music, it's quite clear if you listen to the music that he is stepping on 5, not 4.

Here he is at the WLDC semi-finals on2 division.

An on2 pattern

 

[vit]

In all of those examples, he steps on 1 or 5 with a delayed 2 or 6. This is how it is danced in NY on2 when dancing to the clave.

It's not how it is danced in NY, but it is how dancing in NY looks to people from some areas outside NY (including also my area). So I gave it a name AU2. Girl is a bit closer to NY than the guy

@Live2dance - look elsewhere

 

[Offbeat]

And you call me PURIST?!?!?

No. I called you a fictional purist

 

[kbitten]

Then how do you know if someone has trained to look natural? If you did not know Pineda's background why would you place him there? Oh because you have that eye!?!? You know and all else not. This is your attitude. Only you know and the rest are trolls. Sorry not with me!

As for the bwd and fwd step I never said it is not important nor that it is dead. But the videos are clear. Even the latest one in the social dancing. I counted what, 3 classical fwd breaks when on hold. Even the Uly guy did 4 fwd breaks within 10-15s routine (dancing his on1/Au2). Some others seem to do almost zero. And this is especially the case with ET2 dancers. So it is you who should explain, not me! Ciao bella!

All of us know and you don't kkk I didn't know Oliver has a BR background but it's clear he is trained and not a natural dancer. @elanimal sense the same he said : "something looks too studied" . It's not that hard to have "that eye" kkk but since you place salsa dancers in the BR category I guess YOU wont be able to understand what most of us write here!

I put a video with Fernando dancing and you didnt see ?? Count how many fwd breaks he does and he is not ET2!

If you decide to do just bwd steps when you are advanced, or no steps at all, you will be able to lead me! If you start learning that way, you wont be a good social dancer cause you wont have any idea how our connection works! Even if when pros are not doing a fwd break according to your book definition, the intention is there. Isnt that clear??

" I do it all the time! Do you remember how I lead you to double turn? It's the same principle! I can do a big prep, I can swing my arms, but it all begins with my body! If I am able to show you that I intend to do a double turn just swinging from one side to the other, you will get it but for me to do that I had to study how I can transmit the same intention without my arms! it's the same, get it?"

That's you pro answer! I asked 4 celebs and they gave me almost the same answer! I get it so if you don't, ciao bello!

 

[Offbeat]

Trained by real life! Studios were not there since the beginning of time. But men and women have been dancing for thousands of years.

What is trained by real life? An example? What makes 'trained by real life' better than trained by other means which are not real life? Inquiring minds want to know

BTW. I don't think you answered my question about Mykel Fonts.

 

[Offbeat]

Naw, I think I got it the first time.

I meant the rational for stepping before the beat.

 

[Offbeat]

Or non latin person that moves like latin person, which are obviously quite rare and Oliver for instance isn't really in that group

But Oliver is latin [I think he is originally from South America]

 

[Offbeat]

Someone said trained but not a natural dancer?

A natural dancer implies talent and some sort of inherent ability to dance well. A natural dancer would be usually better at picking up dancing skills no matter what style it is.

You can be a natural dancer whether trained or not. Training can only make you better. Ofourse it has to be right training.

It is fallacy to say that untrained dancers are some how better than trained dancers. Doesn't matter where they got trained. For every hundred trained dancers who can dance well, there will probably one untrained dancer who can dance equally well.

Are we trying to propogate a myth that training is producing bad dancers?

 

[Offbeat]

when the girl suddenly took a huuuuuge step backwards on the 1, which I absolutely didn't lead. She seriously launched herself forward. Then I did my usual thing to gradually absorb her force and redirect her back,

Against my lead, she stepped backwards on the wrong bit, big time, created huge tension, then against my lead she marched forward, and against my lead threw my hand and started spinning...This was so unpredictable, and happened so fast, and with such momentum - I could not catch her on time (nor see it coming).

But I guess it's always the guy's fault.

I have known girls who launch themselves as missiles.
I have known girls who will lift my arm up and turn themselves.
I have known girls who will move in random direction without any lead.
I have known girls who when doing shines at 5 feet apart will step on someone behind them.
I have known girls who will spin second time when you are trying to lead only a single turn.
I have known girls who can't maintain their balance or axis.



If I were ever an instructor, I would tell that as much as it is leader's fault, there are certain things that leader can't control and followers have a responsbility.

It doesn't take more than few minutes for instructor to explain above to a class of beginners. But I haven't ever seen it done. I wonder why! May be terence can explain