Are we really witnessing the death of the forward break?

Live2dance

Live2dance

Son Montuno
As this discussion is now spreading into two threads and there seems to be interest in it from more people than me, I wish to expand this rather technical discussion on the fwd breaks.

The discussion started when noticing that some "stars" are using fwd breaks less and less.

In particular Terry may not even do a single fwd break for the duration of the song/dance. Others including Adolpho and Yoon can also be found to do primarily bwd breaks. See videos in the other thread.

Live2dance said:
Here is the video of Terry with no fwd breaks. Also if you see Adolpho in the video I posted (see further below) he is also not breaking fwd even in CBLs.

Perhaps we need to centralise this discussion.
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LarsM said:
Ok, 0:17 here, a regular hand flick that serves a purpose, namely changing hands for the next move:
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Live2dance said:
Even Adolfo for example. Hardly does a fwd break here.

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Responses received:
  • Vit: Fwd breaks are being reduced in general in all dances including BR. We are witnessing the death of the fwd break.
    • Kbitten response: linear does break fwd
    • my response: Linear salsa on1 does break fwd extensively. The Cuban section of BR latin (Cha and Rumba) still makes extensive use of fwd breaks in both social and comp levels. BR Samba makes less use of fwd breaks and Jive (more swing related) does not use fwd breaks. Casino MCC not really but Cuban style yes but not extensively. Colombian salsa mostly like Cuban.
  • Kbitten: It is just style. Other ET2 linear dancers do fwd break (example ET Junior)
    • Vit response: ET Junior does not break fwd very often in the classical term.
    • my response: I agree with Vit though ET Junior does break fwd (even with classical breaks) more often than others.
    • Offbeat to simplistic to claim it is just a style.
  • Offbeat we should ask them.
    • My opinion I agree.
What do others think about this? Is the fwd break being phased out?
 
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I do not think it is being phased out. What I think you are seeing is the byproduct of 2 guys, Terry and Adolfo, who are opting to dance with many successive patterns, and when transitioning between many patterns, a side or backward break is required. Terry in particular does not seem to break forward very often when leading a cross body. To me that is the only time I see where he should be breaking forward, but isn't. When he does break forward it is when it is required, for example in a 360 or when he is turning himself.

I think you've found 2 great examples, but 'the death of the forward break'...? jajajaja. When you look at many other dancers, including but not limited to Frankie Martínez, Juan Matos, Cristian Oviedo, Milton Cobo, Salomon Amaya, Ernesto Bulnes who've all made recent appearances on the Social Dancing Videos thread, they forward break when they need to. Some guys also like to mix in the basic once in a while, many pros don't. Terry seems to think he'll get point deductions if he ever does a basic.

To continue on the Terry point, Terry seems to favor patterns where he requires a back break, that is, he is constantly using the 'rubberband' effect. So how is he gonna use a forward break doing an open break? I've never seen anyone teach an open break with a forward break.

Final thing, and just to repeat myself, at a workshop with Salomon Amaya, he remarked that a critical element of leading well is how you transition between patterns. Some transitions require a forward break, many don't. I think the 'death of the forward break' is merely a byproduct of choosing patterns that require transitions that do not require a forward break.
 
elanimal said:
I



So how is he gonna use a forward break doing an open break? I've never seen anyone teach an open break with a forward break.
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He is not dancing an "open " break.. it's a "separation" break. An "Open " break, is commenced sideways by both parties, before the lady breaks backwards .

If one does dance/lead a separation, then the man dances a time " step". Would a back break work ?.. of course, but with inherent technical dangers, if the breaks are over danced
 
terence said:
If one does dance/lead a separation, then the man dances a time " step". Would a back break work ?.. of course, but with inherent technical dangers, if the breaks are over danced
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What do you think about this version - leader does a back break and the follower something like a time step ?
 
vit said:
What do you think about this version - leader does a back break and the follower something like a time step ?
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A reverse action does not follow the norm. And, this presumes the lead has been transfered to the lady .
The problem with unorthodoxy, is, it doesn't sit well , in the mainstream of social dancing .
 
elanimal said:
I do not think it is being phased out. What I think you are seeing is the byproduct of 2 guys, Terry and Adolfo, who are opting to dance with many successive patterns, and when transitioning between many patterns, a side or backward break is required. Terry in particular does not seem to break forward very often when leading a cross body. To me that is the only time I see where he should be breaking forward, but isn't. When he does break forward it is when it is required, for example in a 360 or when he is turning himself.

I think you've found 2 great examples, but 'the death of the forward break'...? jajajaja. When you look at many other dancers, including but not limited to Frankie Martínez, Juan Matos, Cristian Oviedo, Milton Cobo, Salomon Amaya, Ernesto Bulnes who've all made recent appearances on the Social Dancing Videos thread, they forward break when they need to. Some guys also like to mix in the basic once in a while, many pros don't. Terry seems to think he'll get point deductions if he ever does a basic.

To continue on the Terry point, Terry seems to favor patterns where he requires a back break, that is, he is constantly using the 'rubberband' effect. So how is he gonna use a forward break doing an open break? I've never seen anyone teach an open break with a forward break.

Final thing, and just to repeat myself, at a workshop with Salomon Amaya, he remarked that a critical element of leading well is how you transition between patterns. Some transitions require a forward break, many don't. I think the 'death of the forward break' is merely a byproduct of choosing patterns that require transitions that do not require a forward break.
Click to expand...

Interesting so in your view is not because of style but because the moves that they choose to do, do not go well with a fwd break. I can see your point but they are doing a lot of CBLs but not the classical way as you said.

Looking at Terry indeed I see a difference in that he does not care about preparing the turns of 123 with a CBL on 567 as others would do. He uses the toss on 1 to place the lady in position to spin and then spins her for 23.

Interesting also that you touched the rubber band effect. What do others use because to be honest I only see rubber band effects?
 
terence said:
He is not dancing an "open " break.. it's a "separation" break. An "Open " break, is commenced sideways by both parties, before the lady breaks backwards .

If one does dance/lead a separation, then the man dances a time " step". Would a back break work ?.. of course, but with inherent technical dangers, if the breaks are over danced
Click to expand...

You mean the Paso separation? I don't think this is the case with Terry but I might be wrong. I think he is doing an open break since in theory his basic is side, bwd break, replace/step for QQS. It may look as a separation but I believe he does the preparation I mentioned above using the toss.
 
Umm, what's a forward break? I seriously don't know what it is, at least in salsa terminology.

Is it something like this:

By that I mean that the lead is a forward step on 1 with a traveling turn happening as a result? In Europe I've found the forward 1 to be a bit rare in casino, even though it's the backbone of so many moves.
 
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khabibul35 said:
Umm, what's a forward break? I seriously don't know what it is, at least in salsa terminology.

Is it something like this:

By that I mean that the lead is a forward step on 1 with a traveling turn happening as a result? In Europe I've found the forward 1 to be a bit rare in casino, even though it's the backbone of so many moves.
Click to expand...

Much simpler than that. A separation is created by releasing the lady as the man marks time ( NO rotation ) man hand change to right, to right hand of lady,after U/arm.

What follows is optional.. U/Arm turns, to double hand hold and Pretzel for another ex.
 
Transitions that require a fwd break : most of them when you are not an advanced dancer :D
(I mean the by the book definition cause It's what live2doubtslotstylersdancetechnique is trying to see)

Guys, I still don't see this ' death of fwd break' . You mean just because the leader is not doing it in a strict straight line, like when we learn the basic, then it's not a fwd break??

How many times in this video Adolfo should do a fwd break and it's not doing it, in your opinion?

 
Smejmoon said:
I'm curious in your opinion which patterns require forward break?
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I'm thinking of one move in particular, which is when the lead half-turns himself 180 degrees by passing under the girls arm to do something else. Unfortunately it's not a great example because you can side step, so a forward break is not necessary. In fact it may be easier or arguably look better to do a side step than stepping forward... but, maybe that is a stylistic consideration...

Anyway, I use moves like that very frequently, in fact this was the first youtube pattern I learned maaaany years ago, and the first one that made girls go 'uuuuuuu.' Sometimes, jeje. So I attach some sentimental value to it. Anyway, check the 0:13 mark, what he calls an 'octopus.'


Ernesto at 0:49 elects to do a side step here to do the same thing. Also a variation I use...


kbitten said:
Transitions that require a fwd break : most of them when you are not an advanced dancer :D
(I mean the by the book definition cause It's what live2doubtslotstylersdancetechnique is trying to see)

Guys, I still don't see this ' death of fwd break' . You mean just because the leader is not doing it in a strict straight line, like when we learn the basic, then it's not a fwd break??

How many times in this video Adolfo should do a fwd break and it's not doing it, in your opinion?

Click to expand...

bajajajaja... bring out the good videos!!!
 
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Smejmoon said:
Next time I see the guy in white tshirt I'll show him how to steal a follow.. watching is overrated :D :D

he was stealing moves though..
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You know, I read the article where the guy said he asked one of those ladies in the line and she just said NO, cause she was waiting to dance with the pro so maybe the guy knew lady would be pissed and decided not to steal!
 
kbitten said:
You know, I read the article where the guy said he asked one of those ladies in the line and she just said NO, cause she was waiting to dance with the pro so maybe the guy knew lady would be pissed and decided not to steal!
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I always ask ladies, "who's last in the line"; then they pretend they're not standing in the line, so they come and dance with me. :D
In this case - maybe, but hey.. he clearly wanted to dance more than bored guy in black suit.
 
terence said:
His breaks are fine, but a bigger problem is.. he "hunches " his shoulders ; we, pros, call that , having your A*** on your neck .
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I think his posture is fine! Thank god is not BR posture rs
What I see is a suit that has size issues.
 
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