Are we really witnessing the death of the forward break?

[vit]

The direction of "travel " which is circular for lady. and, the opening is much more compact .The should look and feel, entirely different .

Hm ... that circular movement of the casino follower is frequently mentioned, but I'm familiar with version of DQN where she actually moves along 2 sides of triangle, with "edge" when she is doing a tap on 4 (assuming on1 timing), of course that triangle can be more sharp or more rounded, but if it is totally circular, it feels as boring as entirely linear movement of the follower in linear CBL
So this "triangular" version is used in linear salsa as well by part of the dancers, just adjusted to remain in the slot, and if used, doesn't feel that different

 

[terence]

My understanding was that hustle and salsa mixed and hustle includes a strong swing element.

It depends upon the style of Hustle. Latin or 3 count ( which is strongly ECS based ), but in both cases, neither affected the basic concept of salsa ( Mambo took more on board ).
By adding specific variations from another genre, does not necessarily change the original form, but in some cases, compliments .

And, not all variations make good transitions, as in mambos's case, to salsa .

 

[terence]

So this "triangular" version is used in linear salsa as well (by some dancers at least), just adjusted to remain in the slot, and if used, doesn't feel that different

I cannot speak for other dancers, but the "triangle" needs to have some curve to soften the action, IMO, and therefore, does look, feel, different. One could say, it's a styling point .

 

[vit]

Of course we don't have ideal geometric movements in dancing, whether it is circle or line or triangle, there are endless possibilities between those three, making things more sharp or more rounded/soft, so we have endless hybrid styles between casino and linear salsa

 

[Smejmoon]

Oliver has never been associated with LA On1.

I'm pretty sure you can easily find him on the record TEACHING On1 to OTHERS!! OMG! I even recall he himself released such DVDs many years ago, when that form of conserved movements was still interesting to some people.

 

[Jag75]

I'm pretty sure you can easily find him on the record TEACHING On1 to OTHERS!! OMG! I even recall he himself released such DVDs many years ago, when that form of conserved movements was still interesting to some people.

He danced on1 before he was famous though. Since at least 2001 he's been dancing predominantly on2. Occasionally he'll teach on1 if the students are unfamiliar with on2

 

[Jag75]

Incidentally a man from the UK by the name of Graeme Haney aka "Mambo G" brought on2 to Australia way back in the late 90s. He is a popular instructor and DJ in Sydney. Prior to bring introduced to On2 Oliver in fact danced Casino more so than LA style

 

[Smejmoon]

He danced on1 before he was famous though. Since at least 2001 he's been dancing predominantly on2. Occasionally he'll teach on1 if the students are unfamiliar with on2

Sure; I'm just saying there is a thin line between: Never been associated; was caught in kizomba room once; dances socially; occasionally teaches; and has released DVDs.

 

[vit]

Yeah, he even has a kizomba bonus part on his zouk DVD ... as kbitten said, he learned some zouk from Kadu and Larissa a few years ago

 

[Live2dance]

The direction of "travel " which is circular for lady. and, the opening is much more compact .The should look and feel, entirely different .

Ok but this is a stylistic difference which does not come from the basics. If for example am in a crowded place and I want to make CBL then I will be forced to keep it compact. So it will turn into a DQN unless the lady really wants to maintain a straight line. The same for the other way around, if I decide in DQN to increase the tension on the rubber band feeling on 3 giving her a lot of momentum she will surely shoot off turn it into a CBL. The difference to me is stylistic. Not essential.

 

[SoceN]

Can someone link a video for what a forward break is? I don't quite understand the debate here

 

[Live2dance]

Can someone link a video for what a forward break is? I don't quite understand the debate here

At 7, 13, 19 and 28 he does a fwd break with the left foot. The best is at 28 where he breaks with the left but does not move the right. Just replace.

Sorry @Jag75 !

Hey @Smejmoon am still dancing this way!

 

[terence]

Ok but this is a stylistic difference which does not come from the basics. . The difference to me is stylistic. .

But it IS a basic variation, and HOW one leads each directionally, is entirely different . IF one changes the alignment of a figure, that, gives it distinction i.e. not only style wise , but technically...

By the way.. Have you taught each, to students ? , I suspect not . After many months of dancing a standard CBL, the intro of DQN into students social freestyle, is for many, a big adjustment .

Lets assume for this purpose.. You have been dancing only Cuban style, and "you" the lady, go to a social that. is not a Cuban style musically speaking ,and someone leads you into a CBL. what do you think the response would be ?..I can tell you from my experience, they invariably commence to "curve" their direction off the slot ,and this in latino clubs..

 

[Live2dance]

But it IS a basic variation, and HOW one leads each directionally, is entirely different . IF one changes the alignment of a figure, that, gives it distinction i.e. not only style wise , but technically...

By the way.. Have you taught each, to students ? , I suspect not . After many months of dancing a standard CBL, the intro of DQN into students social freestyle, is for many, a big adjustment .

Lets assume for this purpose.. You have been dancing only Cuban style, and "you" the lady, go to a social that. is not a Cuban style musically speaking ,and someone leads you into a CBL. what do you think the response would be ?..I can tell you from my experience, they invariably commence to "curve" their direction off the slot ,and this in latino clubs..

I fully accept what you are saying and I am not a teacher. I don't feel qualified to do it because I do not feel I have yet the full understanding of internal body muscles and mechanics (though I wonder how many of the teachers out there have).

But let us examine a different example. Assume we have a couple who know how to dance and both lead and follow rather than simply repeat preprogrammed moves. If that is the case then the lead may decide to either go for a more compact (DQN) or a more rubber band (CBL) interpretation of the move but essentially it would be 90% the same move in terms of steps. Especially the preparatory part. In the entrance to the cross the lead would need to decide and adapt his steps from either 567 on the spot to a more extended 567 side stepping towards the right to maximise the stretch of the slot.

Personally I adapt to the lady. If the lady provides me with no away-stretch at 3 then it will end up looking as a DQN. If the lady provides me with an away-stretch on 3 then it will look like a CBL with a slot. So in my terms it is the same. Action and reaction, it is all I do.

 

[terence]

(CBL) interpretation of the move but essentially it would be 90% the same move in terms of steps. Especially the preparatory part. In the entrance to the cross the lead would need to decide and adapt his steps from either 567 on the spot to a more extended 567 side stepping towards the right to maximise the stretch of the slot.

Its NOT about the # of steps, but body "shape ".. the Prom. position is much more restricted, due to the nature of intended direction, and that is what the uninitiated do not get.. Remember, most dancers are "programmed " to a certain extent, and the muscle memory rules until advised differently ( i.e.. instruction )

 

[Live2dance]

Its NOT about the # of steps, but body "shape ".. the Prom. position is much more restricted, due to the nature of intended direction, and that is what the uninitiated do not get.. Remember, most dancers are "programmed " to a certain extent, and the muscle memory rules until advised differently ( i.e.. instruction )

I again fully accept what you are saying but as an amateur am not using the norm in dancing language. But I will explain using your dancing terminology which is superior to mine.

The number of steps remains the same. Totally agree with you. And also agree that it is all about the body shaping. What I meant was that assuming a closed hold then the promenant position is achieved at 3. If the lady is a good dancer (preprogrammed from a principle point of view) she will settle on 3 and the push into the floor will shape her body in a way that combined with my settling and body shape/stretch will create the rubber band effect between us. And then off we go! Most probably in a slot result.

But if the lady is preprogrammed in a move/pattern way then irrespective of cuban or linear style, she will most probably forget about settling and head off on her own to cross. This is what sounds odd about this idea of the lady crosses the line on her own. And trust me I also heard it two weeks ago from a salsa teacher. So this is a general way of teaching. Preprogramme the ladies to cross! The guy has nothing to do basically. Why not sit out and have a drink while the lady goes back and forth?

See what I mean, there are different types of preprogramming. One on basic principles of body movement and connection and the other on preprogramming patterns.

 

[vit]

Remember, most dancers are "programmed " to a certain extent, and the muscle memory rules until advised differently ( i.e.. instruction )

Well, that's where social dancing skills come into play - how to do "reprogramming" without follower noticing it

 

[SoceN]

There is a very strong latin influence in Europe. Much more I believe than with the US. There are strong links between former colonies and colonisers. For example Spain with SA (Colombia, Chile, Argentina) or UK with Caribean etc. Also EU was more opened to Cubans while the US had closed the door. Looking at the US side we should also not fortet the strong influence of latinos in the west coast. Now, is the linear in Europe more linearised than in the US? I don't know. Perhaps you are right.
But I don't think so. The on1 in Europe seems similar to me to on1 in the US.

It is interesting what you are saying about NY CBL and DQN. Are you saying it because the lead does fwd steps instead of a break? In all places I danced Cuban style they did a break but Casino might be different.

Am glad you said that about Pineda. I was sure I saw him dance on 1. If you find a video of him dancing on1 please post it for comparison. The person that definately danced on1 and on2 is Alien.

On the large steps, I exagurated a bit. What I was trying to say is that their steps on 3 don't look like a "replace" step.

I see your comment on emphasis and am a bit surprised I thought that both ET2 and on1 emphasise the 1 and 3. The on2 you describe sounds to me like Cuban CT or P2 that I used to do before based on BR Rumba. Our BR influence?

Oliver does dance on1.

However, he dances mostly on2 these days from what I've seen.

Your description of the difference between a CBL in on1 and on2 seems a bit off. No matter which style, the leader breaks on the left foot first.

There is essentially no difference in the way people dance on1 or on2 technique-wise. Peoples' style may be different, but the technique is the same.

A good example is this:

https//wwwyoutubecom/watch?v=Fy_cP71xAsc

Ulysses dances the pattern on1 first and then on2. If you mute the sound, the technique is identical.

 

[Live2dance]

Oliver does dance on1.

However, he dances mostly on2 these days from what I've seen.

Your description of the difference between a CBL in on1 and on2 seems a bit off. No matter which style, the leader breaks on the left foot first.

There is essentially no difference in the way people dance on1 or on2 technique-wise. Peoples' style may be different, but the technique is the same.

A good example is this:

https//wwwyoutubecom/watch?v=Fy_cP71xAsc

Ulysses dances the pattern on1 first and then on2. If you mute the sound, the technique is identical.

Sorry are you comparing on1 with P2 or ET2 because the guy seems to be doing P2? Or am I wrong?
At least twice and especially at the end he seems to step on 4, pause on 1 and break on 2 (am simplifying by counting 12341234).

 

[SoceN]

Sorry are you comparing on1 with P2 or ET2 because the guy seems to be doing P2? Or am I wrong?
At least twice and especially at the end he seems to step on 4, pause on 1 and break on 2 (am simplifying by counting 12341234).

I'm comparing on1 with ET2. I don't know what Power2 is, but based on the description I read, it doesn't sound like it.

I watched the on2 part of the video 3 times and didn't see where he stepped on the 4. How he danced on2 is pretty much how we in NY dance on2.