Advice for leading "difficult" follows?
- Thread starter Brighton
- Start date
Many leaders and especially inexperienced beginner leaders don't realize that the lead is about 'intent'. It is not about forcing the follower or literally (or is it figuratively?) making a follower move from A to B.
A leader should convey a clear 'intent' to the follower. It is then up to the follower to deliver upon/follow/accept [sorry Azana, can't think of other active verb that makes it sound less sexist
] that 'intent'. Like it is said a leader invites and follower can choose to accept or not.A leader should convey a clear 'intent' to the follower. It is then up to the follower to deliver upon/follow/accept [sorry Azana, can't think of other active verb that makes it sound less sexist
Depending on the follower again ... some want that "intent" to be quite physical and some would kill me if I do it that way ...
elanimal
Son
The one thing that changed my lead and went to a different tier, was to always always remain light. I used to think 'connecting' with a follower was to respond to her tension, by being just a little less tense. It makes sense when you think about it, but it couldn't be more wrong. However, after an experienced teacher told me to ALWAYS stay light no matter how heavy the follower is, and to just eject when something doesn't work, eventually the majority of followers are forced themselves to be more responsive, and I no longer wrestle. Once they lighten up, then I spring more complicated moves. And 95% of the time they lighten up.
As for different styles, I think that just comes from experience, or obviously taking a few classes in those styles. I will normally just try to adjust to their style and/or default to more 'basic' stuff.
As for different styles, I think that just comes from experience, or obviously taking a few classes in those styles. I will normally just try to adjust to their style and/or default to more 'basic' stuff.
gransalsero
Changui
I always try to be confortable for girls but sometimes I feel is impossible.
Desafinado
Son
Where does the idea come from that leads are responsible for compensating for follows who are uncomfortable or have bad timing or incorrect technique? Doesn't that just perpetuate bad follows who aren't even aware that they suck and need to take some lessons?
granrey
Son Montuno
I can see how styles make problems in leading. One of my teachers, teach most basic moves are lead "two bids ahead".
I dance On1. When I do something as simple as a right turn, I give a cue, two bits before. When I step forward on 1, I lower my left hand (as result I lower her right arm) , then on bit 2 I raise the my left hand higher than the original position and turn the woman clockwise on bit 3. This is how I was taught.
If I'm doing a cross body lead, I do the same cue as above on bit 1 plus I bring my chest closer to hers and a bit inclined towards her (like building momentum).
If I do a left hand turn (broken turn), I raise my right arm on bit 1 plus inclining my arm to her left side, then I bring same hand close to chest on bit 2 and incline it to her right side, then I turn her anti clock on bit 3.
However, I was the other day on a Cuban drop in class and were learning the right turn. The instructor said on bit 2, raise your hand higher and turn her on bit 3. His cue is just one bit before the action.
While I agree that the more experienced a follows gets, the less cues it needs.
I dance On1. When I do something as simple as a right turn, I give a cue, two bits before. When I step forward on 1, I lower my left hand (as result I lower her right arm) , then on bit 2 I raise the my left hand higher than the original position and turn the woman clockwise on bit 3. This is how I was taught.
If I'm doing a cross body lead, I do the same cue as above on bit 1 plus I bring my chest closer to hers and a bit inclined towards her (like building momentum).
If I do a left hand turn (broken turn), I raise my right arm on bit 1 plus inclining my arm to her left side, then I bring same hand close to chest on bit 2 and incline it to her right side, then I turn her anti clock on bit 3.
However, I was the other day on a Cuban drop in class and were learning the right turn. The instructor said on bit 2, raise your hand higher and turn her on bit 3. His cue is just one bit before the action.
While I agree that the more experienced a follows gets, the less cues it needs.
From real life I suppose...
kbitten
Son Montuno
Cause when God created us He gaves us period, pms, pregnancy...so yeah, in dance you guys are always responsible and the ones to blame kkkkkkkkkkk
Abraham R.
Changui
Because if you want to become a better dancer you should always think on what you can do to improve instead of worrying about how good other people are. There is an art to leading difficult or beginner follows that i think translates into the advanced follows. It does nothing for me to point out that a follow needs to take classes because she can't even do a cbl or basic turn while we are dancing at that moment in time. However, if I can be smart and adapt it can turn a really awkward dance into maybe even a fun dance.
As follows, we constantly adapt to different type of leads. A CBL can be lead in so many different ways and we have to pick up on the cues and the leads. But that's part of the learning experience and the greater the ability to adapt reflects more experience in dancing. I would imagine it would be a similar argument for leading. Maybe in an ideal world you can always lead the same thing in the same manner for all dances - but being able to 'adapt', as in sense what the follower needs in order to complete to dance, is definitely a skill. Compensating is a tough term, more like accommodating for a worthwhile dance.
But to the original question... if the lead is going to impose a different style than the follower is used to, then it would be super helpfulto start simple. I would greatly appreciate some established on2 basics before jumping into on2 patterns.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but I always try to keep my frame very solid when dancing with a difficult follow. With seasoned dancers, I can relax a bit, but when I dance with someone who is constantly missing my cues, I square up more and guide her using my frame. I'm still light, but since I'm squared up, I make my intent clearer. Although with some non-slot style dancers who just want to "orbit" around me, I adjust to this as well and just let it happen. However, these days, I know pretty much who I'm dancing with from the get-go, so if I see that they are not dancing in a slot, then I probably won't be asking them to dance. I tend to observe more than the average leader, and so I can avoid certain people whose style clash with mine.
Dissonant Harmony
Son Montuno
It is called: Leading and Following, and not "Demanding" and "being dragged around the dance floor" for a reason.Many leaders and especially inexperienced beginner leaders don't realize that the lead is about 'intent'. It is not about forcing the follower or literally (or is it figuratively?) making a follower move from A to B.
A leader should convey a clear 'intent' to the follower. It is then up to the follower to deliver upon/follow/accept [sorry Azana, can't think of other active verb that makes it sound less sexist
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*Trivia: While in english, the words: "Lead" and "followe" have some obvious connection to eachother, in hebrew that's no the case.
The verb that expresses "to lead" (as in: "guiding someone and showing him the direction") is called "Lehovil". (Active verb, genderless).
Derived from that verb: Guy's role is called: "Movil" (Active form, for male).
Now Who does the guy do that action on? On the girl, of course,
so the naturally, the girl is called: "Muvelet" (Passive form, for female),
Calling the guy "Movil" and the girl "Muvelet" sounds really logical in hebrew, so no one pays no mind, but if one really does pay attention to it,
he will notice that the word "Muvelet" (which is passive) implies that it's the guy who does the action, and the girl does nothing - she has the lead "Enforced" on her.
To make matters worse, the verb "Lehovil" (To show the direction) is pretty rare. (Who usually use alternative words for that). But, that word has another widely-used meaning: "Lehovil" also means: "To transport something into another location". (Like loading furniture on a big truck and transporting it to a new house)..
Considering this use of the word "Lehovil" is much more common, and considering how "Manly" that word is. (Semantic wise)...
The words: "Lehovil" really does sounds manly and forecful,
and the word: "Muvelet" gives the feel that ghe girl is...transported, like by truck, from one location to another.
Now, this may look really obvious when I put it that way, but as native speakers this did not feel weird to me at all...Untill I heard an intructor who lead told me: "You improved alot as a follower' using the word "Okevet" (Which means to tale someone, or to comprehend someone's instructions). Instead of "Muvelet",
"Why does I use the word: 'Okevet'?" He asked.
It took me a second and then I really smiled, "Oh, wow. because Okevet means that the girl is actively doing something". We smiled a lot, never am I using the word "Muvelet" again.
LOL !!!
Which any good teacher, will tell his male students.. Basics are the "glue " which bonds Everything together ..
GroovyMambo
Changui
Nice post!It is called: Leading and Following, and not "Demanding" and "being dragged around the dance floor" for a reason.
---
*Trivia: While in english, the words: "Lead" and "followe" have some obvious connection to eachother, in hebrew that's no the case.
The verb that expresses "to lead" (as in: "guiding someone and showing him the direction") is called "Lehovil". (Active verb, genderless).
Derived from that verb: Guy's role is called: "Movil" (Active form, for male).
Now Who does the guy do that action on? On the girl, of course,
so the naturally, the girl is called: "Muvelet" (Passive form, for female),
Calling the guy "Movil" and the girl "Muvelet" sounds really logical in hebrew, so no one pays no mind, but if one really does pay attention to it,
he will notice that the word "Muvelet" (which is passive) implies that it's the guy who does the action, and the girl does nothing - she has the lead "Enforced" on her.
To make matters worse, the verb "Lehovil" (To show the direction) is pretty rare. (Who usually use alternative words for that). But, that word has another widely-used meaning: "Lehovil" also means: "To transport something into another location". (Like loading furniture on a big truck and transporting it to a new house)..
Considering this use of the word "Lehovil" is much more common, and considering how "Manly" that word is. (Semantic wise)...
The words: "Lehovil" really does sounds manly and forecful,
and the word: "Muvelet" gives the feel that ghe girl is...transported, like by truck, from one location to another.
Now, this may look really obvious when I put it that way, but as native speakers this did not feel weird to me at all...Untill I heard an intructor who lead told me: "You improved alot as a follower' using the word "Okevet" (Which means to tale someone, or to comprehend someone's instructions). Instead of "Muvelet",
"Why does I use the word: 'Okevet'?" He asked.
It took me a second and then I really smiled, "Oh, wow. because Okevet means that the girl is actively doing something". We smiled a lot, never am I using the word "Muvelet" again.
Dissonant Harmony
Son Montuno
I wish I did some proofreading though; Reading it now turned to be quite the embarrassment.
I'm surprised you could understand me.
manzanadulce
Son Montuno
Not really true, I dance On2, plus Casino, and a little bit of Son/Danzon. In On2 you don't really have to lead directionally, because the follow knows that her basic is forward 123 and back 567. It's slotted. You don't really move outside the slot. the lead does, by opening the door for CBL and turn patterns that initiate with CBL, but the follow never does. When done exceptionally well, a la Frankie Martinez, salsa on2 CAN give the ILLUSION of two people orbiting around each other, but not in the way it's done in casino. in casino the lead is responsible for telling the follow which direction she will be traveling in, since the follow can never assume back and forward, as in salsa on2 or on1 or any other type of slotted dance. there are many more options and opportunities in change of direction in casino, within 360 degrees, whereas in salsa on 2, it's only within 180. obviously, that makes it more complex to lead, and also creates the opportunity for turn patterns that simply can't exist in salsa on 2 because they take you outside of the 180 degree slot.