Advice for leading "difficult" follows?

LarsM said:
Is it really more complex to lead casino than linear salsa? That's not what the (very few) good leads that do both here say, but they may of course be mistaken.
Click to expand...

Hi LarsM,

I can't speak for everyone, but I can certainly speak to the experience that me and my casino partner had when we were first learning, with salsa on 2 having been the only type of dance we knew beforehand.

The thing is that in salsa, a lead does not have to be directional in the same way as in casino. it's simply about giving a cue: to turn, not turn, etc. The follow always assumes forward 123, back 567. The patterns work because the follow assumes this. For anyone who has danced with a beginner follower who hasn't quite mastered forward 123, back 567, you know how essential this assumption is to the dance. Beyond that, its really merely a matter of how many turns, and are they clockwise, or counterclockwise? Pretty simple.

In casino, the lead also has to give the correct cue as to whether he wants the follow to turn or pivot, which direction to turn, and how many turns should be executed, in addition to leading her towards the correct direction within a 360 circle. To me, this adds a definitive layer of complexity to the lead.

Salsa is based on the follower knowing she must ASSUME to travel forward on 123 and back on 567. In casino a follower can NEVER assume! This is the most disruptive force to executing any pattern in casino. A follow must have a blank slate in terms of direction at all times, and go where the lead is taking her.

However, I can also appreciate that leading a dance that has back breaks (such as On2), could be more difficult than a dance where the follower is always traveling forward. Men do travel backwards in casino, but they can always count on the woman moving in a forward direction, which could certainly make that aspect of leading casino easier than On2.

(Side Note). I also think the back break action contributes to a lot of issues in the dance, including both partners getting off the timing, because the movement is never continuous. It travels forward for several counts, then stops, and a back break needs to happen before beginning another series of movements. It's actually really limiting for the dance, and also, goes completely against natural forward walking action. People WANT to continue forward-motion patterns, so they tend to kinda "forget" about the back break and continue to advance forward. This is a weakness in my own dance, and I've seen it in countless others, where leads have come and collected me and lead me forward before I finished my back break step.

Hope that makes sense! Feel free to ask me anything :)
 
LarsM said:
Is it really more complex to lead casino than linear salsa? That's not what the (very few) good leads that do both here say, but they may of course be mistaken.
Click to expand...
I am not advanced, but I find casino is easier to lead than slot. Rotational movement makes many of the basic figures feel very natural and they can be led even for beginners ... Also I find on1 follows adapts to casino easier than casino follows to on1.
Of course trying to do some of the complicated stuff is hard in both line and casino.
 
wol said:
I am not advanced, but I find casino is easier to lead than slot. Rotational movement makes many of the basic figures feel very natural and they can be led even for beginners ... Also I find on1 follows adapts to casino easier than casino follows to on1.
Of course trying to do some of the complicated stuff is hard in both line and casino.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, because casino is danced "On1", and I agree with your point about the rotational movement. I guess it also depends on which dance a follower is more familiar with to start. If she's somewhat aware of Cuban style, that helps, as does having an On1 background as opposed to On2, I think. To your point, slot to rotational movement feels more natural than rotational to slot, right? So that would explain why followers adapt better On1-->Casino as opposed to Casino->On1.
 
I have no idea who taught you the ' follower always assume fwd 123 bwd 567' , in fact I never heard of that but I will wait for the ones that really did classes or the teachers to say something!
 
manzanadulce said:
The thing is that in salsa... it's simply about giving a cue: to turn, not turn, etc. The follow always assumes forward 123, back 567. The patterns work because the follow assumes this. For anyone who has danced with a beginner follower who hasn't quite mastered forward 123, back 567, you know how essential this assumption is to the dance. Beyond that, its really merely a matter of how many turns, and are they clockwise, or counterclockwise? Pretty simple.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
@kbkitten, @Salsa Student

Sorry, maybe my post was unclear.

By "forward 123, back 567", i mean the following...

Basic Step, On2: Step in place on 1 with right leg, step forwards on 2 with left leg, hold counts 3 and 4. Step together in place on 5. Step backwards with the right leg on 6, hold counts 7 and 8. Step together in place on 1.

When I say that if a follower (On2) does not assume this as a baseline, I mean that there will be general issues with timing and leading. For example, if a follower does not step her 6 backwards but simply stays in place or has forward momentum from not transferring weight correctly on the back break, she will get off balance, she will have the tendency to rush, and she will limit the possibility for certain patterns to follow. Obviously there are complex patterns where this can easily become muddled. Of course a follow should listen to the lead, but a good lead understands the foundations and constructs the dance was built on.

This was simply to illustrate the point that salsa on2 is different than casino in that it is a slot dance, and not one that travels around a circle in multiple different directions.

Those who disagree, please let me know your thoughts!
 
manzanadulce said:
Basic Step, On2: Step in place on 1 with right leg, step forwards on 2 with left leg, hold counts 3 and 4. Step together in place on 5. Step backwards with the right leg on 6, hold counts 7 and 8. Step together in place on 1.
Click to expand...

:confused::confused::confused: It looks like I'll have to start learning linear salsa from the scratch
 
We always have fwd intention, at least we should, even when we break back! I am sorry but your two posts have too many things I disagree, and the whole 'conclusion' is even more strange to me so for now I will pass!
It is nothing against you or your view, it's just because I am at the gym now and write about it would take too much time! :)
 
kbitten said:
We always have fwd intention, at least we should, even when we break back! I am sorry but your two posts have too many things I disagree, and the whole 'conclusion' is even more strange to me so for now I will pass!
It is nothing against you or your view, it's just because I am at the gym now and write about it would take too much time! :)
Click to expand...


I got what manzanadulce said the first time and agree with her more detailed observation. May be you are misinterpreting something she said or you want to say it in a different way Yes you can do sidesteps and other things in On1 or On2, but the very essence of slot dancing is underpinned on the forward and backward movement (for both lthe ead and the follow). If you omit that, then there is no more slot left to speak off. You can still dance but no one observing you will call it either on1 or on2 :)
 
One thing is say you have a fwd/bwd movement, another thing is say that "The follow always assumes forward 123, back 567. The patterns work because the follow assumes this"
-That is so no true IF you past improver level

And then : "a lead does not have to be directional in the same way as in casino. it's simply about giving a cue: to turn, not turn, etc. ...Beyond that, its really merely a matter of how many turns, and are they clockwise, or counterclockwise"'

- Choosing a basic 'linear' step (cause I think when she says 'salsa' she is talking about slot style, cause I thought casino was salsa, unless she is a member of the cuban nazi clan), so choosing a copa please tell me how do you lead it without being directional ??

and then : "In casino, the lead also has to give the correct cue as to whether he wants the follow to turn or pivot, which direction to turn, and how many turns should be executed, in addition to leading her towards the correct direction within a 360 circle."

- Any of you not doing that to dance whatever rhythym you decided to dance is not leading kkkk pure blindness

and the conclusion: "To me, this adds a definitive layer of complexity to the lead."

-???? 'ACTUAL' leading adds a definitive layer of complexity? or the 360 circle? cause if you say it's the circle...

and " leading a dance that has back breaks (such as On2), could be more difficult than a dance where the follower is always traveling forward. Men do travel backwards in casino, but they can always count on the woman moving in a forward direction....I also think the back break action contributes to a lot of issues in the dance, including both partners getting off the timing, because the movement is never continuous."

- show me a video of a casino dance you like with this continuous movement, forever and ever travelling forward of the lady.:cool:
 
"One thing is say you have a fwd/bwd movement, another thing is say that "The follow always assumes forward 123, back 567. The patterns work because the follow assumes this"
-That is so no true IF you past improver level"

What do you mean by improver level? This goes for ALL follows, no matter what level. It is the foundation of the dance itself for the follow. Once you become advanced it does not mean you FORGET that the dance has a forward movement on 123 and a back break movement on 567, unless, as I clearly stated earlier, you are being lead into a pattern that has something different happening on the counts, in which case you would follow the lead you are being given. Think about being lead into a traveling counter-clockwise turn. The assumption is always to FINISH the turn and return to face your partner, unless you get additional information from the lead where he tells you to stop, by checking your shoulder, where you would remain with your back to the lead. If you stopped turning without receiving that information, you would have assumed wrong. There are certain assumptions that are key to the dance. Forward 123 and back-break 567 is one of them. Please explain how I am wrong?

"Choosing a basic 'linear' step (cause I think when she says 'salsa' she is talking about slot style, cause I thought casino was salsa, unless she is a member of the cuban nazi clan), so choosing a copa please tell me how do you lead it without being directional ??"

To your first question. Casino is not salsa, casino is a style of son, from Cuba. Salsa as it is known in most of the US and Europe is an INTERPRETATION of Latin music and dance that were developed from the knowledge of slotted ballroom dances such as West Coast Swing and adapting those dances to Latin rhythms (mostly from Cuba). This information is common knowledge and can easily be found. To your second question, referencing a copa. You misunderstand what I mean by directional. A copa involves STOPPING an assumed movement and then leading it in the opposite direction. However, a copa does not take the follower out of the SLOT. Of course leads do give directional information to followers in Salsa On2, but my point was the the options for the number of directions they can travel in are low, compared to casino. If a lead stops a follower's assumed movement in salsa, the follow knows to travel in the opposite direction that they came from. Otherwise, obviously there is no point in stopping the movement in the first place.

""In casino, the lead also has to give the correct cue as to whether he wants the follow to turn or pivot, which direction to turn, and how many turns should be executed, in addition to leading her towards the correct direction within a 360 circle."

- Any of you not doing that to dance whatever rhythym you decided to dance is not leading kkkk pure blindness.""

Yes, but the difference is that in casino there are many more POSSIBLE directions that the follower can travel in, and only the lead knows what direction that is, and he must convey it very clearly to the follower, who cannot rely on the same assumptions as she can in linear salsa to help.

"To me, this adds a definitive layer of complexity to the lead."

-???? 'ACTUAL' leading adds a definitive layer of complexity? or the 360 circle? cause if you say it's the circle..."

When I said "this", I was referring to having to give the follower more information about the direction of travel than is needed in linear salsa. Of course, the reason for that is because casino is not linear.

""leading a dance that has back breaks (such as On2), could be more difficult than a dance where the follower is always traveling forward. Men do travel backwards in casino, but they can always count on the woman moving in a forward direction....I also think the back break action contributes to a lot of issues in the dance, including both partners getting off the timing, because the movement is never continuous."

- show me a video of a casino dance you like with this continuous movement, forever and ever travelling forward of the lady.:cool:"

Firstly, this is my opinion, which I have stated that it was. I welcome feedback on this as it is only a educated guess on my part, and I am curious what others think!

I can't post videos yet because I'm a new member, but you can go to YouTube and search: Akiko y Yoel, Baile de Casino, Estilo Clasico, "Despues de un Beso." If you notice the woman's footwork, she is traveling around the man, there is no open break or "back break". She travels side to side sometimes but always stepping forward. Even coming out of spins she continues walking forward. That is the most significant difference between casino and salsa. And in this video you can also see how many directional changes are being lead.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top