A Salsa dancer's shelf life...

[Chris_Yannick]

A topic that has recently come across my mind is just how much time I have left to improve my physical dancing attributes before I start declining physically?

Now, the classic encouraging answer is "don't worry about that. Just have fun. You can dance all your life..don't worry about becoming the best... blah blah blah"

That's all good and fine, but I'm looking at a timeline for myself where I can realistically look at improving my physical attributes for dancing BEFORE I start declining physically, which is just a fact of life.

It doesn't mean I'm looking to do flips on the dance floor, but I would like to continue developing my speed, precision, power, strength, coordination and flexibility. These are all physical attributes I consider useful for a Salsa dancer to improve overall dance performance.

So I guess I'm wondering how many Salsa dancers can you think of who are still improving inversely to age?

I'll take a look at some very famous Salsa dancers and their current progression trends.

Oliver Pineda age: 40
Fernando Sosa age: 43
Frankie Martinez age: 40-44?
Johnny Vasquez age: 42

The above guys were all well into their peaks at a younger age (early 20s) and I believe they are all on the decline, albeit slowly. So they don't really fit my model of getting better with age.

Interestingly enough, when I look at some really good Cuban dancers, it seems they defy age even more than the above.

Maykel Fonts Age: 44
Roly Maden Age: 49

The above 2 are still performing great physical feats. It seems they are actually getting BETTER with age.

Are there any dancers you can think of who are still improving physically with advancing age (over 40...)? What is their secret?

In my experience, dancers who are already above 30 (whether professional or not) are mostly all on the decline physically and never match or exceed what they were able to do at a younger age.

This is an interesting topic for me because I am 39 but feel like I haven't yet reached my physical dance peak.

 

[Smejmoon]

The trick is to have not so good shape to begin with. Then you can make improvements at any age.
Otherwise of course mid 20s for most is the peak. In early 30s my professional dancer friends already start complaining about pains in their knees and back and such. They might get better, but it hurts. Professional sports is taxing on you, and you have to pay for training hard every day.

For amateurs like us, we probably can improve a lot longer, we just won't reach these heights.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

The trick is to have not so good shape to begin with.

This was also my thought. Transform from lazy slob to dance professional and feel good about advancing age

 

[Mr Setenta]

Interestingly enough, when I look at some really good Cuban dancers, it seems they defy age even more than the above.

Maykel Fonts Age: 44
Roly Maden Age: 49

See the real question is whether they'll all need new knees later in life. I can't see Afro-Cuban dances doing any favours to their knees

 

[1derpalm]

A topic that has recently come across my mind is just how much time I have left to improve my physical dancing attributes before I start declining physically?

Now, the classic encouraging answer is "don't worry about that. Just have fun. You can dance all your life..don't worry about becoming the best... blah blah blah"

That's all good and fine, but I'm looking at a timeline for myself where I can realistically look at improving my physical attributes for dancing BEFORE I start declining physically, which is just a fact of life.

It doesn't mean I'm looking to do flips on the dance floor, but I would like to continue developing my speed, precision, power, strength, coordination and flexibility. These are all physical attributes I consider useful for a Salsa dancer to improve overall dance performance.

So I guess I'm wondering how many Salsa dancers can you think of who are still improving inversely to age?

I'll take a look at some very famous Salsa dancers and their current progression trends.

Oliver Pineda age: 40
Fernando Sosa age: 43
Frankie Martinez age: 40-44?
Johnny Vasquez age: 42

The above guys were all well into their peaks at a younger age (early 20s) and I believe they are all on the decline, albeit slowly. So they don't really fit my model of getting better with age.

Interestingly enough, when I look at some really good Cuban dancers, it seems they defy age even more than the above.

Maykel Fonts Age: 44
Roly Maden Age: 49

The above 2 are still performing great physical feats. It seems they are actually getting BETTER with age.

Are there any dancers you can think of who are still improving physically with advancing age (over 40...)? What is their secret?

In my experience, dancers who are already above 30 (whether professional or not) are mostly all on the decline physically and never match or exceed what they were able to do at a younger age.

This is an interesting topic for me because I am 39 but feel like I haven't yet reached my physical dance peak.

2 of my fave dancers in T. Are older than you or I. One is a bald guy who looks like a handsome Telly Sevalis with enviable eyebrows, and the other is a shorter latino guy. Dances linear real well but has that "I'm having fun" latino attitude. And Teddy is older but then pop and lock because of his body movement skills.
So as long as you train smart and ease up as you get older you should be good for a while. I hurt my back practicing Rumba (the lumbar undulation) as I was practicing 2 hours a day for 2 weeks straight.

 

[Offbeat]

Boy! A lot of things to unpack here.

A topic that has recently come across my mind is just how much time I have left to improve my physical dancing attributes before I start declining physically?

Till age of 70

But seriously, I know multiple people who started participating in marathons, ultra marathons and ironman when they were in 50s or 60s.

If you have motivation age is not a barrier. Sure your body was more flexible when you were in 20s. Aging does have impact on our body, muscles and bones. That is a fact. Like in 20s, in 50s and 60s too, people skills are different in how their physical coordination works. There are as many clumsy dancers in 50s as there as in 20s.

In short, yes age is a factor but it is not a limiting in terms of where your starting point is and where you need to improve. Someone younger too can lose range of movement due to injury, etc. Whether due to injury or age, if there is some loss of movement, it depends on deliberate practice to slowly adapt and figure out what works and what doesn't.

As far as body movement is concerned, I don't see age to be that much of a limiting factor. I don't include athletic or acrobatics in that, though seen some older people still able to pull it off.

Dancing socially is not like performing ballet at the highest level.

Now, the classic encouraging answer is "don't worry about that. Just have fun. You can dance all your life..don't worry about becoming the best... blah blah blah"

That's all good and fine, but I'm looking at a timeline for myself where I can realistically look at improving my physical attributes for dancing BEFORE I start declining physically, which is just a fact of life.

You are barely touching forties! You can improve for a very long time before any decline. At least for another 20 years.

It doesn't mean I'm looking to do flips on the dance floor, but I would like to continue developing my speed, precision, power, strength, coordination and flexibility.

As long as you practice at the pace that works for you, you should see a lot of improvement. I don't think you would have improved faster if you were 25 compared to now.

15 years makes a difference when at the highest form of sports you need a split second decision making or a being slow by a second or two can mean difference between losing and winning. Plus professional sports take a lot of abuse on body and mind in 15 years.

Social dancing and improving it is not the same. As long as you put in effort and hours needed, you will continue to improve. Let's say the rate at which to improve is ten or twenty percent slower, so what? You have a huge advantage that you are not starting from scratch.

These are all physical attributes I consider useful for a Salsa dancer to improve overall dance performance.

Think about how each of those attributes is physiologically generated or manifested. Then consider how each of those get impacts by age related factor.

So I guess I'm wondering how many Salsa dancers can you think of who are still improving inversely to age?

Even at the highest levels, little plateau. Whether we talk about the pros who pursue career based on their physical abilities (sports, ballet, etc) or salsa dancers. Motivation is also a big factor to consider. It is hard to be motivated for 20-30 years.

However I have attended preformances by professional dancers (not salsa), who can give a very demanding vigorous physical performance for two hours non stop at age of 65 or 70 and do it better than their students in 20s.

After a certain level, improvement plateaus irrespective of age. I don't see age as a barrier to improvement. It is more about maintaining the level reached. Well if your have reached level of excellence where plateauing will take place, there is a lot of room to improve, again irrespective of age.

I'll take a look at some very famous Salsa dancers and their current progression trends.

Oliver Pineda age: 40
Fernando Sosa age: 43
Frankie Martinez age: 40-44?
Johnny Vasquez age: 42

The above guys were all well into their peaks at a younger age (early 20s) and I believe they are all on the decline, albeit slowly. So they don't really fit my model of getting better with age.

I don't follow much of Sosa. But the other three I still consider to be just as good as in their prime. May be you are bored of how they dance but that is your judgement.

If there is decline or they have less motivation to excel then that is a mental/emotional rather than age thing. Or they view dance in very different ways (like FM does) which may not fit your vision of what it should be. In my books neither is a decline.

Frankie these days in the workshops often talks about thinking ahead about your dancing in how your body will be in 10-20 years time and what you need to do now to continue to dance. He was not talking about physical conditioning. He was talking about body movements.

Interestingly enough, when I look at some really good Cuban dancers, it seems they defy age even more than the above.

Maykel Fonts Age: 44
Roly Maden Age: 49

The above 2 are still performing great physical feats. It seems they are actually getting BETTER with age.

When I saw MF first social or partner dancing in 2013, he was horrible. I wrote about it then and mentioned several times. His Rumba and solo performance on the other hand was very good.

When it comes to MF's solo dancing skills, I don't view him as having improved them any more compared to FM's or Oliver's skills. We would have to disagree on that. As far as his partner dancing is concerned, he had no way but only to go up and improve since relative to them he was so bad!!

I don't know Roly Maden so can't comment. But at least it shows age is not a barrier.

I think your view of the things often gets colored by your current obsession or interests

Are there any dancers you can think of who are still improving physically with advancing age (over 40...)? What is their secret?

Yes if they started when they were 35 or 40. The same way as when you start at 20, your rate of improvement is faster in the beginning and slower the more you improve.

In my experience, dancers who are already above 30 (whether professional or not) are mostly all on the decline physically and never match or exceed what they were able to do at a younger age.

Lets take a different parallel. Do you think a martial artist master in 30s or 40s is less skilled or in decline compared to 20s? That he can't take on someone in 20s. Speed and agility can be compensated in different ways depending on the discipline. As you age you gain experience and realise for which movements to preserve speed and agility (irrespective of discipline). That is called making your dancing efficient (FM takes about it too). Speed and agility on youth is something used to compensate for lack of skills. But the decline of speed and agility should not be equated with decline in skills. Unless as I said you are taking about highest level of professional sports where a second makes a difference. Being a step slower in chasing a tennis ball is different than dancing. Or at the highest level of gymnastics often past 20 or 22 is consider as too old to compete (with exceptions). The context is important imo.

Aren't you overthinking?

This is an interesting topic for me because I am 39 but feel like I haven't yet reached my physical dance peak.

I don't think age is a factor in how much you can improve. 39 is not that old!!

 

[Smejmoon]

15 years makes a difference when at the highest form of sports you need a split second decision making or a being slow by a second or two can mean difference between losing and winning.

Salsa dancing at higher levels requires to make split second decisions/reactions all the time. Leads can goof off at their own leisure, risking to become boring, but for follows there is less choice. A lot of dancing is needed to offset aging.

In salsa you can't afford being a second or two late. Music is too fast.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

ou are barely touching forties! You can improve for a very long time before any decline. At least for another 20 years.

I hope so, but from what I've seen from Salsa dancers, I haven't seen many improve in their 50s and 60s. Usually they've peaked by then and are already going through a decline. What I see the most is the decrease in motor coordination and muscle reflexes, which may be more a result of lifestyle changes. Improving body movement seems to offset that somewhat, so I'm definitely going to continue improving in that area.

Social dancing and improving it is not the same. As long as you put in effort and hours needed, you will continue to improve. Let's say the rate at which to improve is ten or twenty percent slower, so what? You have a huge advantage that you are not starting from scratch.

I'm not too worried about the rate at which I improve. I've always been a slow improver at Salsa. Though upping my training has increased my rate of improvement. I'm curious though how long I can sustain this level. I don't think I should be training like a 20 year old (4 hours + a day and destroying my joints). My body just doesn't heal as quickly as it once did. Although I admire those who are training really hard still without caring about age.

I don't follow much of Sosa. But the other three I still consider to be just as good as in their prime. May be you are bored of how they dance but that is your judgement.

Even if they are 5% slower compared to their prime, I still consider it a decline. They are definitely not better than they were in their prime (although Sosa and maybe even Johnny come close). But again, they are declining at a much slower rate compared to the typical Salsa dancer.

If there is decline or they have less motivation to excel then that is a mental/emotional rather than age thing. Or they view dance in very different ways (like FM does) which may not fit your vision of what it should be. In my books neither is a decline.

I am only looking at physical decline, which to me is a function of age and also lifestyle, maybe genes.

Frankie these days in the workshops often talks about thinking ahead about your dancing in how your body will be in 10-20 years time and what you need to do now to continue to dance. He was not talking about physical conditioning. He was talking about body movements.

Ha! So then he acknowledges his own decline.

When I saw MF first social or partner dancing in 2013, he was horrible. I wrote about it then and mentioned several times. His Rumba and solo performance on the other hand was very good.

Definitely not talking about his partnering skills. He is a physical specimen at his age. Roly even moreso. Rumba dancers must have access to some magic herbs.

Do you think a martial artist master in 30s or 40s is less skilled or in decline compared to 20s? That he can't take on someone in 20s.

Physically, yes they are less skilled. But they can still take on someone in their 20s on experience alone. I suggest watching the movie Fist of Legend with Jet Li for proof

Speed and agility can be compensated in different ways depending on the discipline. As you age you gain experience and realise for which movements to preserve speed and agility

Yes I agree, but they are still not as fast as they once were. That's just a fact.

But the decline of speed and agility should not be equated with decline in skills.

It's a decline in motor function, which is biology. Older dancers can still improve, but they will never regain their speed.

Aren't you overthinking?

No! I don't overthink things related to dancing. But I am maybe hyper-aware of my own physiological functioning, which can sometimes cause me to question my limits.

I don't think age is a factor in how much you can improve. 39 is not that old!!

Pretty much all I needed to hear

 

[Chris_Yannick]

See the real question is whether they'll all need new knees later in life. I can't see Afro-Cuban dances doing any favours to their knees

Maybe. Afro-Cuban dancers are a very curious case for me to study. I can totally picture a bunch of 60-70 year old Rumberos on a deserted island doing flips on sand with 1000 rpm shimmies around a bonfire, super high out of their mind.

 

[Smejmoon]

I was always thinking that musicality is something you can improve independently of physical improvements, though it's tightly connected in reality. If you can't execute your musical idea, then what's the point?

But now in context of this thread I was thinking how does hearing loss impact dancing and musicality? I know I sometimes dance to music I don't hear or anyone hears, because I know the song and I've heard it on better sound system.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

But now in context of this thread I was thinking how does hearing loss impact dancing and musicality? I know I sometimes dance to music I don't hear or anyone hears, because I know the song and I've heard it on better sound system.

Do you know any deaf dancers? It's not easy and it can be very difficult to dance, let alone be musical, with impaired hearing, although I suppose it's possible to hear music through the bass, but I'm definitely not informed on the subject.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

was always thinking that musicality is something you can improve independently of physical improvements, though it's tightly connected in reality. If you can't execute your musical idea, then what's the point?

At some point, limited physicality will stop you from executing what you want to do if your idea of musicality is to express the multilayered threads of Salsa music. Though I definitely think musicality is also personal and subjective. I also think very subtle movement can be very musical. Dancing to slower music can sometimes open the door to that type of sublime musicality.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I should also add that I think the main reason a Salsa dancer declines past 30 is due to lifestyle change more than age. Things like starting a family, starting and focusing on their business and pursuing other interests will usually contribute more to a Salsa dancer's decline.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

2 of my fave dancers in T. Are older than you or I. One is a bald guy who looks like a handsome Telly Sevalis with enviable eyebrows, and the other is a shorter latino guy. Dances linear real well but has that "I'm having fun" latino attitude. And Teddy is older but then pop and lock because of his body movement skills.

I'm trying to picture these guys but can't. As for Teddy, I think he's been on the decline (or at least stagnant) for a while. Definitely has the benefit of being a good methodologist and his dancing style is economical and efficient, but I see his lack of Latin body movement as a crutch. IMO, Angus is a better role model to emulate. I love his style.

I hurt my back practicing Rumba (the lumbar undulation) as I was practicing 2 hours a day for 2 weeks straight.

Be careful with this. Though I would never train it 2 hours a day. 15-20 minutes is enough. Over the course of half a year, I have seen the improvement. My back used to be stiff as a log, but to be honest, body rolls and chest pops have helped me more than practicing that cursed Rumba undulation. Though I suspect the illusion of performing the movement is greater than the movement itself.

 

[azana]

I don't think age is a factor in how much you can improve. 39 is not that old!!

Couldn't agree with you more!

However, despite how what you're all saying is considered and correct, I see you all avoiding the elephant in the room. For an older woman "shelf life" is seen differently. I love sport and I'm very fit (as with on most summer weekend days, I got up and swam 40 laps this morning; currently training the school cycling team for a 532km ride in December., as well as the hockey and recently very winning baseball teams..), but I'm largely ignored at socials. I'm a decent dancer (not great, as Offbeat and others can attest!) but I'm an older and ordinarily looking woman. My shelf life is much lesser than that of a man, regardless of my physical capabilities. I continue to do the asking if I'm not asked and want to dance, and focus on the positives - e.g. hey, I don't get as many dances, but I control the partners and dance with compatible, enjoyable leads and sit out songs I'm not overly crazy about, such as songs from other genres converted to salsa, a pet dislike - and seek to improve (I have a two-year plan set out!) it's impossible to deny that I am not as valued as a younger woman at socials. I've had to put off my salsa travel plans due to the pandemic, and now will try to secure leave in 2023 and get to some salsa events in Eastern Europe in particular (watch out, Smej, I'm coming for you! ) By then I'll be nearly 50 and worry about whether I'll be able to get many dances. (at the same time, I'm well aware that plenty of leads are not fussed, and if I can indeed put aside the time to improve, maybe it won't be as bad. I always have a much better and more 'popular' time dancing out in my beloved Japan than in Australia.)

Warning: I've been drinking my dad's homemade sangria for a good half hour and my attention-loving cat is curled up on top of my schoolwork next to my computer so not sure how lucid I am at the moment, lol...!

 

[terence]

Do you know any deaf dancers?

Many moons ago I taught a lady who was totally deaf and yet never missed a beat (in several dance styles ) she lip read for instruction and I asked her how she managed to operate, she replied " vibration ".

 

[terence]

Couldn't agree with you more!

However, despite how what you're all saying is considered and correct, I see you all avoiding the elephant in the room. For an older woman "shelf life" is seen differently. I love sport and I'm very fit (as with on most summer weekend days, I got up and swam 40 laps this morning; currently training the school cycling team for a 532km ride in December., as well as the hockey and recently very winning baseball teams..), but I'm largely ignored at socials. I'm a decent dancer (not great, as Offbeat and others can attest!) but I'm an older and ordinarily looking woman. My shelf life is much lesser than that of a man, regardless of my physical capabilities. I continue to do the asking if I'm not asked and want to dance, and focus on the positives - e.g. hey, I don't get as many dances, but I control the partners and dance with compatible, enjoyable leads and sit out songs I'm not overly crazy about, such as songs from other genres converted to salsa, a pet dislike - and seek to improve (I have a two-year plan set out!) it's impossible to deny that I am not as valued as a younger woman at socials. I've had to put off my salsa travel plans due to the pandemic, and now will try to secure leave in 2023 and get to some salsa events in Eastern Europe in particular (watch out, Smej, I'm coming for you! ) By then I'll be nearly 50 and worry about whether I'll be able to get many dances. (at the same time, I'm well aware that plenty of leads are not fussed, and if I can indeed put aside the time to improve, maybe it won't be as bad. I always have a much better and more 'popular' time dancing out in my beloved Japan than in Australia.)

Warning: I've been drinking my dad's homemade sangria for a good half hour and my attention-loving cat is curled up on top of my schoolwork next to my computer so not sure how lucid I am at the moment, lol...!

I want to hear what your cat says about all of this..

 

[azana]

I want to hear what your cat says about all of this..

Based on my living room exploits she's alarmed, but generally thinks I'm fabulous...

 

[Mr Setenta]

Hmm, in a social dancing context I think your peak is when you are having the most fun so that depends on you i guess

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Hmm, in a social dancing context I think your peak is when you are having the most fun so that depends on you i guess

I imagine it will be very difficult for me to enjoy dancing if I start feeling physically limited.

I had a taste of it when I was physically limited from 2014-2018, saddled with a lot of chronic pain. I enjoyed dancing and didn't care how I looked. Different circumstances. I learned to live with it.