A disturbing experience

manzanadulce said:
I see, I guess it could potentially work! I'd be interested to try. I think this goes for almost all types of dance. I have even seen ballet danced to non classical music, and its unique and unexpected. But for some reason salsa to bachata music seemed really strange to me. Just my own opinion.
Click to expand...

I have heard a famous instructor saying: "Every dance has its own basic step. Once you get it, all the rest is just the same ****".

Of course this is way too general, and except for the different basic steps,
different dances may differ in posture, stepping technique, or some special mechanics that are unique to them, but in the world of social dance, many of those things are broken and people are more free...so, yeah, just establish your connection, share a common 'language' and listen to the music...

*When I started learning WCS I was frustrated that I couldn't express myself, since I didn't know that dance well. A few girls who knew I was a Salsa dancer agreed to try dancing Salsa with me. This happened on a linear salsa basic, and I OFC didn't have the proper WCS frame or technique, but they had their way of reacting to lead and their way of maintaining their frame. I did Salsa, but it had the elastic feel of WCS, which was really interesting.

*Not long ago I was in a mixed party. I invited a girl to dance Salsa, but apparently she only danced Bachata ("I don't really...know Salsa"). I did my usual think and kindly semi-said-semi-asked: "But you do know how to follow" - "Ammm...." - "So let's give it a try! :)"
I noticed that she hard a time following because I like abusing the girl's momentum and smoothly connect things to each other, but as a Bachatera she became more 'stiff' every 4 beats, and expected me to somewhat "absorb" her motion, and redirect her to a new direction...On an insinct. In that scenario, our 'common language' had to be using a Bachata-Basic-Platform, and not base it on Salsa.
 
Yeah. That all makes sense.

I think two people dancing who know salsa on2 and west coast swing could work pretty well interchangeably since most on2 salsa patterns are based on WCS and both dances have that elastic break back element. so, there's quite a bit of similarity there.

I remember seeing some videos of WCS when I first started dancing salsa on2 and thinking it was the same dance actually. Then, of course, I eventually learned they were different dances!
 
manzanadulce said:
I think two people dancing who know salsa on2 and west coast swing could work pretty well interchangeably since most on2 salsa patterns are based on WCS and both dances have that elastic break back element. so, there's quite a bit of similarity there.
Click to expand...

Been there done that. You will have two salsa on2 dancers doing a bad WCS :)

Ability to execute patterns is not dancing.

You only see the similarity in the patterns and assume it is interchangeable. No it isn't. You have to dance the salsa patterns to salsa rhythm and the same patterns to WCS rhythm. Two very different things. Your weight changes in both dances are very different. It is not a compliment if someone at WCS swings asks you if you dance sasla after dancing with you :) The way you absorb the weight change is very different.

The elastic break back is also not the same. Most often in on2 or on1, you don't have the rubber band effect which is part and parcel of the WCS dance experience. In WCS the follower has to 'settle', which is a very different feel from how a follower dances in on1/on2.
 
Last edited:
Dissonant Harmony said:
I have heard a famous instructor saying: "Every dance has its own basic step. Once you get it, all the rest is just the same ****"..
Click to expand...

I will agree with but as a Zen quote :)

If you are a mature dancer, and you learn a basic step and rhythm of a different dance, your learning curve will be much quicker and faster than the rest. But you do need to have that ability to know how to transfer your knowledge from one dance form to another.
 
manzanadulce said:
I think two people dancing who know salsa on2 and west coast swing could work pretty well interchangeably


since most on2 salsa patterns are based on WCS
Click to expand...

Actually ( as has been stated numerous times !! ). ECS has contributed equally as much, and of course, other dances, even in basic structure..
 
Offbeat said:
The elastic break back is also not the same. Most often in on2 or on1, you don't have the rubber band effect which is part and parcel of the WCS dance experience. In WCS the follower has to 'settle', which is a very different feel from how a follower dances in on1/on2.
Click to expand...

For on 1 NY there is a rubber band feeling in a CBL at 3. If not how do you signal the lady to cross or cross with a turn or ... ? Seeing ET2 seems to have a rubber band effect on 1 (separation) or 2 (turning a la Terry). Cuban could have a rubber band effect too. Primarily on 1 and 5. Unless we have different understanding of what rubber band effect is!

Also what do you mean the lady does not settle in salsa?
 
Live2dance said:
For on 1 NY there is a rubber band feeling in a CBL at 3. If not how do you signal the lady to cross or cross with a turn or ... ? Seeing ET2 seems to have a rubber band effect on 1 (separation) or 2 (turning a la Terry). Cuban could have a rubber band effect too. Primarily on 1 and 5. Unless we have different understanding of what rubber band effect is!

Also what do you mean the lady does not settle in salsa?
Click to expand...

What do you mean by "on 1 NY?". I've never heard anyone from NY use that term. Are you referring to a style of On1 that is not as sharp and big as LA style?

I agree that the "1" (in ET2) can be used to add elasticity to the CBL and make it more dynamic or powerful, use it set up specific moves, or add stylistic "swing". However, I was taught by my NY instructor that the default CBL does not require the lead to exert any pressure on the follower's shoulder/body to indicate her to cross the line; the leader getting out of the way should be enough. He explained that the primary goal of the follower is to cross the line and that her movement (as a general rule) is towards the open path. If the leader is blocking her path, she either stays in place, goes back, or around the leader depending on what is being led. An interesting extension of this way of thinking is that it allows us to reimagine the second half of the basic step as an "aborted" CBL because the follower was not able to cross the line. This convention helps create "flow" and is why "point leads" work. It really makes the dance a lot smoother. This line of reasoning has improved the clarity of my lead by increasing my awareness of body positioning. Of course, this is not a universal view, so it can cause miscommunication on the dance floor. In my limited experience, nonetheless, it has worked with most dancers.
 
GroovyMambo said:
What do you mean by "on 1 NY?". I've never heard anyone from NY use that term. Are you referring to a style of On1 that is not as sharp and big as LA style?

I agree that the "1" (in ET2) can be used to add elasticity to the CBL and make it more dynamic or powerful, use it set up specific moves, or add stylistic "swing". However, I was taught by my NY instructor that the default CBL does not require the lead to exert any pressure on the follower's shoulder/body to indicate her to cross the line; the leader getting out of the way should be enough. He explained that the primary goal of the follower is to cross the line and that her movement (as a general rule) is towards the open path. If the leader is blocking her path, she either stays in place, goes back, or around the leader depending on what is being led. An interesting extension of this way of thinking is that it allows us to reimagine the second half of the basic step as an "aborted" CBL because the follower was not able to cross the line. This convention helps create "flow" and is why "point leads" work. It really makes the dance a lot smoother. This line of reasoning has improved the clarity of my lead by increasing my awareness of body positioning. Of course, this is not a universal view, so it can cause miscommunication on the dance floor. In my limited experience, nonetheless, it has worked with most dancers.
Click to expand...

On1 NY is the LA without the acrobatic/flashy stuff. Old style salsa on1 which is the same basic as P2 but danced on1. This danced a lot in Europe as PR style salsa.

Well I can see a lot of possibilities for misscommunication because if I understand correctly your teacher is basically saying that if you get out of the way the lead should initiate a CBL on her own. To my honest opinion that is a bit exagerated. You need some initial lead. But I see now that ET2 is really different from on1 or P2 because to initiate the cbl in ET2 you step fwd on 5 with left foot, rotate left (ACW) and step on right foot and then step on left foot again. Am I right? If this is the case indeed your break seems to be (in classical terms) on 5.

By the way in on1 the basic could also be considered as an aborted CBL.
 
Live2dance said:
Also what do you mean the lady does not settle in salsa?
Click to expand...

You danced WCS or taken lessons? Easier to discuss if you dance WCS.

I think Casino/Cuban has more rubber band feel going around than on1/on2.

Aside In WCS there is lot of compression and release (decompression) going on between the lead and follow. You don't see anything like that in on1/on2.

Anyways I don't see what's the point here of discussing WCS vs Casino/Cuban and on1/on2. They are all different dances and not strictly related to eachother. Not music wise, not rhythm wise, etc. Similar patterns doesn't mean much from music and dance perspective.
 
Live2dance said:
But I see now that ET2 is really different from on1 or P2 because to initiate the cbl in ET2 you step fwd on 5 with left foot, rotate left (ACW) and step on right foot and then step on left foot again. Am I right? If this is the case indeed your break seems to be (in classical terms) on 5.
Click to expand...

Left foot breaks on six (leads timing).
 
Last edited:
Offbeat said:
You danced WCS or taken lessons? Easier to discuss if you dance WCS.

I think Casino/Cuban has more rubber band feel going around than on1/on2.

Aside In WCS there is lot of compression and release (decompression) going on between the lead and follow. You don't see anything like that in on1/on2.

Anyways I don't see what's the point here of discussing WCS vs Casino/Cuban and on1/on2. They are all different dances and not strictly related to eachother. Not music wise, not rhythm wise, etc. Similar patterns doesn't mean much from music and dance perspective.
Click to expand...

I have done swing, cerock and jive but we are NOT discussing about comparing wcs with salsa. Am asking about how people lead in salsa alone. There is compression in salsa too at least in on1. This how you lead an ACW turn or start a setanta move.

Still what is this no settling !!!
 
Last edited:
GroovyMambo said:
However, I was taught by my NY instructor that the default CBL does not require the lead to exert any pressure on the follower's shoulder/body to indicate her to cross the line; the leader getting out of the way should be enough. . .


In my limited experience, nonetheless, it has worked with most dancers.
Click to expand...

Exactly..
.And,also in my vast experience. As to "pressure " this will always depend upon ones partner , but even then, minimal.
 
terence said:
Lower the left arm...IF the frame is maintained, the break point has little significance .
Click to expand...
Hi Terrence am not arguing about the arm or frame position. For me it seems to be a matter of what dance/lead principle you apply. The principle I was taught was that unless you lead the lady she will continue in the direction she is going. So if she steps back on her right foot for 1 and I don't apply the break then on 2 she should also step back. So in on1 salsa (or Cuban) I need to first apply a rubber band effect on 1 and then on 3 to lead her out to CBL. The way it sounds to me for ET2 is that you only need to apply lead on 7, perhaps because of the basic action and the principle that the lady keeps going back and forth in a line when the door is openned. But I might be wrong for ET2 so am trying to understand because I don't dance it.

And if we say that break points don't matter then this leads to the other discussion on breaks and why they seem different between on1/Cuban and ET2.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top