A disturbing experience
- Thread starter LadydancerSF820
- Start date
Salsa Student
Son Montuno
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You were talking about the leads timing so I gave the leads timing for a forward break on2. The CBL example you gave was a lead dancing on1 but on follows timing.
Salsa Student
Son Montuno
There is a FB page called My Mambo Style which has a performance by Santo Rico entitled "Chechere Guma Con Santo Rico X" that has a good example at 0:16. For some reason when I try to post the direct link it doesn't get displayed in the actual posting.
It is usually mentioned in WCS, where continuous elastic, rubber-band-like arm connection is preferred between partners, with much more usage of "pull" than "push". There are exceptions is some moves (like sugar push) and there are some differences among instructors and their preferences. This is how I learned it - I danced only with people from a few european countries, but it felt quite similar (in salsa, there was much more variety in "regional preferences" among followers I danced with) and also an american instructor that was here a few times danced that way. It feels quite different than connection in both salsa and casino and you have to feel it - watching the clips and dancing other genres isn't really enough to get an idea (or at least it wasn't for me). It is overall connected with the way of movement and expressing musicality. Settling of the follower is also connected with this (I suppose Offbeat meant things like anchor step), she is expected to stay in place until given the lead and not do some basic step (like sugar push) on auto-pilot. etc. Of course, you can use it in salsa and I probably do it to some extent, but it's not how people usually dance
Salsa Student
Son Montuno
Dissonant Harmony
Son Montuno
I go by the same law.
I never assume that the lady assumes anything.
I perceive the kinematics of the dance in a way that somewhat reflects the first and the second newton's laws of motion.
Part one: Contra. (Net force = 0)
When the girl and I maintain our frames and give each other "Contra" - then net force is zero.
From my (or hers) perspective, we "don't move at all". (Even if a 'watcher' from outside sees us doing a back-and-forth basic step, to my, or her eyes, by maintaing the contra, we "do not move"). This is similar to a person sitting in a bus. To the "outside world", ofc, the bus (and the person inside it) move, but from the person's perspective (Compared to the bus), he just "sits in place".
When the follow and I strive to keep the contra, we can "stick".
Anyways, According to the first law of Newton, in that scenario, we will either stay at rest, or keep our previous velocity.
This goes well with what you said: If the girl was led to move, she will continue her motion, unless the lead excelates her:
Part two: We cheat the Contra by moving.
Let's assume I apply a force of "2N on the girl, and she does 2N in return. (That's our "Contra") According to what I said earlier, we shouldn't move. (Or keep moving in the sace velocity we had before).
Now I Increase the force to 3N! (Either by Pushing with the hands, which is considered bad, or by, amm...pushing the floor to go forward!)
two things can happen:
1) Girl wil "fight it" and push me back in a force of 3N (Instead of the previous 2), but that's just...resisting your lead.
2) Girl will *Move*. What determines how much she will move? A length respective to difference between you and her's "push". (In that scenario we applied 2N on each other, and I increased the force I aplly to 3N, so the difference is 1N. If I increased it to 4N, the difference would be 2N, and so she would move twice as far. We can also see that if our innitial contra was 10N vs 10N and I increased my force on her to 11N, this is just as the same as a contra of 2N and 2N, and me increasing my force on her to 3N. Differnce is still 1N!)
Now, the difference of force should make the girl excelate, and so move faster than me, and that would create distance between us.
But according to part one, I strive to keep our contra, so I will "Cheat" it, and move with her - "sticking" to her and perserving the "Net force = 0" feel.
Part three: We cheat a world "with low friction".
Imagine pushing a sumpermarket cart...on a hard asphalt. Eventually it will stop due to friction.
Now imagine pushing the same cart, this time on ice. It will really tend to "remember" the motion he was led to do, and maintain it.
By moving on her own, the girl fakes a world with "low friction" - she can cotinously maintain her motion without slowing due to friction.
When I lead, it's like moving a supermaket cart. IF the girl does the first two parts well, and she's light, this would also feel like moving with a supermarket cart...on ice.
Now, when you do your shopping - do you have have to apply an LA-like Rubber band effect, to stop its movement and then start going in reverse?
Do you usually do breaking steps when you rotate with your cart?
I bet you stick to it, keep your arms at the same length during most of shopping, "push it" by...just pusing the floor and progressive to a direction you desire...and when you want to turn, you just do it gradually - abusing the motion that the cart already has to make it nice and smooth,
-Yes, of course there is *some* pulling and pushing done to maintain the contra, and you *do* apply lead...but so long as you and your partner stick to those "three parts", it can be done in a relatively smooth way - no sharp LA-ish whips, catapults or obvious breaks are needed. You don't do it with a supermarket cart - and you don't really have to do it with a girl who wishes to follow you and maintains her contra.
---
The way I see it, your "common-center' in NY Style is usually quite light, relaxed and constant.
In LA and it changes a lot throughout the dance, as instead of being relaxed and constant, there are huge increasements and deceasements in force, and muscles are being stretched and compressed much more. (I also noticed that LA dancers do it in a sharp, "stacatoish" way, while WCS dancers know how to apply those dyanmics in a more gradual, "higher-resolution", "Legatoish" and smooth way).
kbitten
Son Montuno
It's a excuse for people to say salsa is wcs dance to latin music
A connection can be light, heavy, elastic, anyway you want it to be! The only dance where this rubber band effect is desirable and is really a part of the dance is wcs! The rest is just a preference! Choose yours , know the other ways to adapt when dancing to different people from another part of the country or even from another school and you will be fine!
The discussion here is all about X is better than Y! Its the same on1xon2, casino x slot so not a big deal!
Live2dance
Son Montuno
I like your approach. Actually, the cart is an interesting analogy. If I am moving fast with a cart or the angles are tight then yes I apply breaks as if am dancing. If I am going slowly and I have space then I change direction slowly by as you said pushing into the floor to change direction (in effect doing lots of little breaks of direction). Is like you are walking and you remembered you left something at home. Either you will stop and turn back (LA) or you will keep on doing say 1/4 turns to turn more smoothly.
On the above, I start to understand your point BUT there is an assumption here that both partners are applying force in the contra. Hence either they have their bodies both fwd or both bwd which creates the 2N tension that you were saying. This is inline with BR latin and modern technique where you are asked to have your body fwd (there are specific partner exercises) to create this feeling. This makes you faster and able to travel more especially in comps.
Now the issue is that we are looking at social dancing. There most people keep their own space and hence the contra only applies because the force exerted is 0N. So taking a physical approach as you did I also make significant use of Newton's third law. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
So starting from 0N I move towards the follow with say 2N. That builds a pressure on her through a push effect on her arm (through our frames) that sends her back with say 1N and am slowed down at 1N too (action reaction). Then I apply the break. She keeps on moving at 1N and I stop (So 0N). My stop causes her to stop and some of her 1N and my 1N are absorbed in the arm connection which causes the rubber band effect (the rest are absorbed in our pressure into the floor / settling actions). Then all choices are possible. I can spin her for 23 like echufla (basic underarm turn ACW) or open the way for her and off she goes to a CBL.
So from the above, do you mean that the more advanced social ET2 dancers keep constantly their weight fwd?
Last edited:
Live2dance
Son Montuno
Please see my above post. In Casino how do you lead an echufla?
Live2dance
Son Montuno
It's a excuse for people to say salsa is wcs dance to latin music
A connection can be light, heavy, elastic, anyway you want it to be! The only dance where this rubber band effect is desirable and is really a part of the dance is wcs! The rest is just a preference! Choose yours , know the other ways to adapt when dancing to different people from another part of the country or even from another school and you will be fine!
The discussion here is all about X is better than Y! Its the same on1xon2, casino x slot so not a big deal!
Nothing to do with what you are saying. We are trying to understand what people conceive as fundamental parts of their dancing!
Stop TROLLING!!!!
