A disturbing experience

Finally one lady from latin BR, so far we just have guys! Maybe you can help me later - I was trying to search in the codified BR world for some exercises and tips to solve a problem I saw in my dancing - but I will wait to see if you are in the good or in the bad BR side kkkkkkk
 
terence said:
Interesting analogies..

The comparison between BR and salsa training, by and large, is light years apart .Not necessarily a good comparison, but in isolation for a single dance, valid..

The 2nd Para. is more in line with how prospective teachers are trained, except the 1st stage is one year long ( minimum ) and mentored thru class work as an assistant. More importantly , ALL have danced as Amat. as a rule, for many years to a good standard ( I'm not speaking to the "cowboy" teachers? ) .

Teaching is a serious business granted, but, there are other qualities, as you know, than just product knowledge..

Last Para. One of the most common complaints I have heard from students who have had lessons elsewhere, is , "they taught me routines " which they admit was a waste of time . NEVER have I come across someone ( in the UK ) ,who mentioned the word "clave " and seldom basic structure in partnership..
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure we can easily agree that ballroom is much more "academic" or "systematic" or "supervised" - considering it's competitive sport with strict standards we are talking about. O:

---

The place I complained about here is not a representative sample here.

The mainstream format of teaching goes is classes-and-then-party. And classes before the social evening commences are part of the package. (We got only one "school"; some instructors may do courses here and there).

In that formet, you cannot overlook routines. It's supposed to be fun, and the students are supposed to feel like they have learned something new, that can be used in the social. Routines are easy ways to make one believe he progresses and be able to measure himself to others. (Or to himself in the part).

It's not that technique is completely neglected, and many teachers will encourage you to pick up "more than just the routine" in the class, but let's say - an hour dedicated to technique...that's not gonna work. People will get bored.
Those classes are fine in courses (If you took one, and paid in advance, then you are probably a dedicated student who desires to gain knowledge - and the type that cannot usually be acheived in normal classes) or speical workshops.

Some may admit that in general, the first 2 levels are all about making the students have fun and return. Therefore you cannot dare talking about anything related to technique from day one. (It will make the studends understand that dancing is complicated. This is scary).

*The place where I like dancing the most, however has a special level, with classes deticated only for technique-fixing. Classes are still routine-oriented, and they do not adderss Proper stepping, CM, or other "scary" stuff, but they still give the students much more of an idea how this dance works, opens them up, cleans their previously-learned moves, fixes some common-mistake beginners usually do...It also talks about the music, and about being musical and tactful.

Once you are over with that level (Recommended to be taken twice. This can take 3 months), you are allowed to participate in higher level classes. The last level, BTW, is also devided to 2 different lessons. (You pick one). One is about overly-stupid-and-long routines I would never do socially, and the other one is a "Technique" level as well. Once again - it doesn't talk about those basic foundamentals you get from day 1 in ballroom, but what they teach thre is still much more important than...knowing another horrible pattren.

That's 5 +2 levels overall. It can easily take more than year to go through the entire syllabus.


*WCS events I attended at were much much much more technique-oriented from day 1. You develop the routines *from* the technique, and not the other way around. Espcialy when it comes to frame, posture and rules of the dance. Proper technique for movement is usually addressed at the last levels, though.

*The place I have talked about (That one that has 2-parted-instructor course) has a very clear niche for teaching. It may sound long, but done properly, it actually saves a lot of time, because it reduces confusion by a lot, and thus there is no time wasted on students not understanding what's supposed to happen, not knowing how to lead it, doing things wrong, delaying the class because they need their mistakes fixed / questions answered...

The method has 5 steps:

1) "General Motion".
2) Logic
3) Technique
4) "Any questions"?
5) Practice.

"General Motion" is about giving the students a clue - what's supposed to happen.

First you demonstrade the element.

(You may even declaim what's supposed to happen during the demonstraion.
I:E, for a CBL: You may "sing" something like: "Girl and I are switching places", or "I let her pass, now she's there").

You must give the students some sense - what's going there.
I:E, if you want to teach CBL:
"Guys, girls, stand in front of your partners.
Guys, take a step to the right". (Demonstrate while talking).
"Girls, go forward. Yes, like that. Pass the guys".
"Now turn to the guys".
"Guys, take a step back, so you can be in front of the ladies again".
"Switch partners.
let's do it again".

A similar process can be done for, let's say, an Enchufla.
"Stand in front of each other.
Guys, take a bit to your left, girls, a bit to *your* left too.
"Guys, hold with your left hand the girl's right hand".
"Guys, raise your arm as if you are checking what time it is."
"Guys and girls', go forward until you pass eachother".
"Turn to eachother",

This who process may take 1-2 mins (including innitial demonstration), but know you know that the students know, *in general*, what's supposed to happen,
so their entire focus can be channeled to....how to do it.

-I stopped counting how many times I had to delay a class I took, just because I didn't understand what the instructor wanted me to do. Seriously. I don't need to be taught "how" anymore. If I ever get confused in class, that's because I had no clue what I was supposed to do to begin win. (Needless to say, some instructos don't teach the "how", and others are really not clear about their: "what". I mean: "Take her hand, do CBL, then turn here, and then turn and..." Seriously. Which hand of her do I take? With which hand of mine? Does she turn outside or inside? Sure for something as simple as that I can pick it up by just looking at the instructor, but not everyone can, and I gave a simple example. Many times it requires clear instructions, and if it is not done well, students will do something different and end up wondering why they did not end in the same position like the rest of the class).

In that case the insctuor would have to start from the beginning. Right? Kills the flow of the class, kills the concentration of the ADHDs among us, and wastes time.

---

2) "Logic".

Now that your students get the: "What",
you give them some clue: "Why".
At low-level classes you may give some theory like: "In LA the girl dances on a line. Do you want the girl to pass? OK! You must move to the side then!"

Or: "If you don't raise you arm in enchufla...*This* wil happen".

This can be done by verbal explanantion, demonstration, or trial and error if the students. (I:E During the "General movement" part, in a CBL, you can start by not telling the guys to step to their right.

(Part 1: "General movement" and part 2: "logic" can be done together. I.E):

"Guys, in front of the girl. Girls, go forward...forward...forward...forw-oh, you can't. because there is a guy blocking you. Let's do it from the beginning. Back to our first positions. Guys, move a bit to your right. Ok, girls, this time go forward, until you pass the guys. Yes. now turn back to them. Guys, back to be in front of the girls.

This is like what I did earlier, but this time, through trial and error we found that the girl can pass *because* the guys let them.

More advances lessons sure can give more advanced logic.

"You lead this one from above the girl's elbow, because that way there are less joints for her to move as a response, and so more chances that this action will make he body rotate".

(This is a boring explanantion here, though.
A better instructor will probably use an assistant and say+demonstrate something like:

"Do you want the girl to rotate. Right?
But if I do from here, she may do this: *Girl responds to his lead by just moving her hand).
But if I lead it from here...There is much less chance that she will not turn.
Does someone know why?
Because she can't bent this part of her hand! *Keeps rotating the girl, leading through her brachium).

Best logics are usually short and easy to relate too.

---

3) Technique.

Students now know what's supposed to be done and what it looks like in general,
and they also have some grasp for why this works.
All if lest is to relate it to the dance.
This part is about steps, on what beats they occour, what the lead is being done, stressing some important points...

---

4) and 5) are self-explanatory.

---

This may seem very long, but in action, I have seen teachers wasting 15 minutes on half-explained routines, and others finishing them using this method...in 5 minutes.

-And the students also knew what this move is about, and had some idea why it works, and how to execute it well. They get the: "What", "why" and "how" combined, and can relate them to one eachother, so it is no longer just choreography-learning. They actually get some idea how to dance, and sooner, when they advance, all the dots keep connecting and connecting very easily.

*Still, I have never seen a stepping technique lesson done outside workshops and courses, but I can easily say that that are places here that teach people to dance, and not just to recite elements without understanding them.
 
Last edited:
Dissonant Harmony said:
I am pretty sure we can easily agree that ballroom is much more "academic" or "systematic" or "supervised" - considering it's competitive sport with strict standards we are talking about. O:

---

The place I complained about here is not a representative sample here.

The mainstream format of teaching goes is classes-and-then-party. And classes before the social evening commences are part of the package. (We got only one "school"; some instructors may do courses here and there).

In that formet, you cannot overlook routines. It's supposed to be fun, and the students are supposed to feel like they have learned something new, that can be used in the social. Routines are easy ways to make one believe he progresses and be able to measure himself to others. (Or to himself in the part).

It's not that technique is completely neglected, and many teachers will encourage you to pick up "more than just the routine" in the class, but let's say - an hour dedicated to technique...that's not gonna work. People will get bored.
Those classes are fine in courses (If you took one, and paid in advance, then you are probably a dedicated student who desires to gain knowledge - and the type that cannot usually be acheived in normal classes) or speical workshops.

Some may admit that in general, the first 2 levels are all about making the students have fun and return. Therefore you cannot dare talking about anything related to technique from day one. (It will make the studends understand that dancing is complicated. This is scary).

*The place where I like dancing the most, however has a special level, with classes deticated only for technique-fixing. Classes are still routine-oriented, and they do not adderss Proper stepping, CM, or other "scary" stuff, but they still give the students much more of an idea how this dance works, opens them up, cleans their previously-learned moves, fixes some common-mistake beginners usually do...It also talks about the music, and about being musical and tactful.

Once you are over with that level (Recommended to be taken twice. This can take 3 months), you are allowed to participate in higher level classes. The last level, BTW, is also devided to 2 different lessons. (You pick one). One is about overly-stupid-and-long routines I would never do socially, and the other one is a "Technique" level as well. Once again - it doesn't talk about those basic foundamentals you get from day 1 in ballroom, but what they teach thre is still much more important than...knowing another horrible pattren.

That's 5 +2 levels overall. It can easily take more than year to go through the entire syllabus.


*WCS events I attended at were much much much more technique-oriented from day 1. You develop the routines *from* the technique, and not the other way around. Espcialy when it comes to frame, posture and rules of the dance. Proper technique for movement is usually addressed at the last levels, though.

*The place I have talked about (That one that has 2-parted-instructor course) has a very clear niche for teaching. It may sound long, but done properly, it actually saves a lot of time, because it reduces confusion by a lot, and thus there is no time wasted on students not understanding what's supposed to happen, not knowing how to lead it, doing things wrong, delaying the class because they need their mistakes fixed / questions answered...

The method has 5 steps:

1) "General Motion".
2) Logic
3) Technique
4) "Any questions"?
5) Practice.

"General Motion" is about giving the students a clue - what's supposed to happen.

First you demonstrade the element.

(You may even declaim what's supposed to happen during the demonstraion.
I:E, for a CBL: You may "sing" something like: "Girl and I are switching places", or "I let her pass, now she's there").

You must give the students some sense - what's going there.
I:E, if you want to teach CBL:
"Guys, girls, stand in front of your partners.
Guys, take a step to the right". (Demonstrate while talking).
"Girls, go forward. Yes, like that. Pass the guys".
"Now turn to the guys".
"Guys, take a step back, so you can be in front of the ladies again".
"Switch partners.
let's do it again".

A similar process can be done for, let's say, an Enchufla.
"Stand in front of each other.
Guys, take a bit to your left, girls, a bit to *your* left too.
"Guys, hold with your left hand the girl's right hand".
"Guys, raise your arm as if you are checking what time it is."
"Guys and girls', go forward until you pass eachother".
"Turn to eachother",

This who process may take 1-2 mins (including innitial demonstration), but know you know that the students know, *in general*, what's supposed to happen,
so their entire focus can be channeled to....how to do it.

-I stopped counting how many times I had to delay a class I took, just because I didn't understand what the instructor wanted me to do. Seriously. I don't need to be taught "how" anymore. If I ever get confused in class, that's because I had no clue what I was supposed to do to begin win. (Needless to say, some instructos don't teach the "how", and others are really not clear about their: "what". I mean: "Take her hand, do CBL, then turn here, and then turn and..." Seriously. Which hand of her do I take? With which hand of mine? Does she turn outside or inside? Sure for something as simple as that I can pick it up by just looking at the instructor, but not everyone can, and I gave a simple example. Many times it requires clear instructions, and if it is not done well, students will do something different and end up wondering why they did not end in the same position like the rest of the class).

In that case the insctuor would have to start from the beginning. Right? Kills the flow of the class, kills the concentration of the ADHDs among us, and wastes time.

---

2) "Logic".

Now that your students get the: "What",
you give them some clue: "Why".
At low-level classes you may give some theory like: "In LA the girl dances on a line. Do you want the girl to pass? OK! You must move to the side then!"

Or: "If you don't raise you arm in enchufla...*This* wil happen".

This can be done by verbal explanantion, demonstration, or trial and error if the students. (I:E During the "General movement" part, in a CBL, you can start by not telling the guys to step to their right.

(Part 1: "General movement" and part 2: "logic" can be done together. I.E):

"Guys, in front of the girl. Girls, go forward...forward...forward...forw-oh, you can't. because there is a guy blocking you. Let's do it from the beginning. Back to our first positions. Guys, move a bit to your right. Ok, girls, this time go forward, until you pass the guys. Yes. now turn back to them. Guys, back to be in front of the girls.

This is like what I did earlier, but this time, through trial and error we found that the girl can pass *because* the guys let them.

More advances lessons sure can give more advanced logic.

"You lead this one from above the girl's elbow, because that way there are less joints for her to move as a response, and so more chances that this action will make he body rotate".

(This is a boring explanantion here, though.
A better instructor will probably use an assistant and say+demonstrate something like:

"Do you want the girl to rotate. Right?
But if I do from here, she may do this: *Girl responds to his lead by just moving her hand).
But if I lead it from here...There is much less chance that she will not turn.
Does someone know why?
Because she can't bent this part of her hand! *Keeps rotating the girl, leading through her brachium).

Best logics are usually short and easy to relate too.

---

3) Technique.

Students now know what's supposed to be done and what it looks like in general,
and they also have some grasp for why this works.
All if lest is to relate it to the dance.
This part is about steps, on what beats they occour, what the lead is being done, stressing some important points...

---

4) and 5) are self-explanatory.

---

This may seem very long, but in action, I have seen teachers wasting 15 minutes on half-explained routines, and others finishing them using this method...in 5 minutes.

-And the students also knew what this move is about, and had some idea why it works, and how to execute it well. They get the: "What", "why" and "how" combined, and can relate them to one eachother, so it is no longer just choreography-learning. They actually get some idea how to dance, and sooner, when they advance, all the dots keep connecting and connecting very easily.

*Still, I have never seen a stepping technique lesson done outside workshops and courses, but I can easily say that that are places here that teach people to dance, and not just to recite elements without understanding them.
Click to expand...

Interesting read. I will need to read it again and respond when I have a bit more time :)
 
, but I can easily say that are places here that teach people to dance, and not just to recite elements without understanding them.[/QUOTE]

First question.. When does the rest of the "book " come out ? :D

I believe you over analysed my comment.. My point was simply this.

The major complaint I get from students who have had lessons elsewhere, is ; the routine format ( and I do mean a "routine " ) is way too long for most to remember. Small sequences are more easily attained upon which one may eventually build.

"Setting " Balance / Hold and Frame" are my high priority, which without, NOTHING will work well..

The adage " less is more " is an imperative for beginners .

As to techn. I keep that info. at a minimum , and the choices of music for lessons, at a maximum .
 
On a more positive instructional note I've noticed a trend of increased social dancing quality in many dancers owing to doing heats competition. It seems that forcing yourself to prepare to be judged improves your dancing. Who knew? ;) :P

Here are a few videos from February this year at the World Salsa Summit which is to my knowledge the largest heated salsa competition in the world.

The Amateurs:

The Pro-Am advanced girls final; both of these divisions started with over 50 (fifty!) girls:
(small warning - contains loud high pitched cheering)

The Professional Semi-Finals featuring top talent from all over North/South America with a bit of Europe in there as well:
 
Chris F said:
On a more positive instructional note I've noticed a trend of increased social dancing quality in many dancers owing to doing heats competition. It seems that forcing yourself to prepare to be judged improves your dancing. Who knew? ;) :p

Here are a few videos from February this year at the World Salsa Summit which is to my knowledge the largest heated salsa competition in the world.

The Amateurs:

The Pro-Am advanced girls final; both of these divisions started with over 50 (fifty!) girls:
(small warning - contains loud high pitched cheering)

The Professional Semi-Finals featuring top talent from all over North/South America with a bit of Europe in there as well:
Click to expand...


And.. Blackpool here we come !! ( good thing. bad thing ? )
 
Well, 2 girls from my venue competed on WSS in Miami this year (one am-am and other pro-am as am), but I'm not sure that I noticed "increased social dancing quality" dancing with them. And both are still way behind the best followers in the venue and way behind most followers I see on social dancing clips we post here
 
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