Why were people so nice to me as a noob lead?

[n00bdancer]

The salsa community sometimes gets a bad rap for being hostile to beginners. I dance in nyc, where this perception is even more pronounced.

However, surprisingly I received the opposite experience.

As I have mentioned, salsa started when I walked into a salsa party after taking only two classes because I saw a free event on Eventbrite, it said you are welcome whether you’re an experienced salsero or “just getting started”, and I was bored on a long weekend. Though, as I mentioned, I found my behavior cringe, most followers danced with me and were nice about it. Before then, I didn’t even really realize that most people at socials payed thousands of dollars on classes and put in hundreds of hours of studios. I only realized that it was actually a deep skill that people train seriously for until a follower rejected me and explained that I have to take more classes.

From then on, I started taking 10-20 hours of classes a week but even at socials during first few weeks, many followers were still pretty nice. Like I still couldn’t dance well at all, but I was able to dance on time and lead basic turns and followers encouraged me just based on that.

I can actually dance now so socials go pretty smooth and most followers seem satisfied dancing with me.

But, I didn’t really receive that much hostile treatment as a newcomer at socials.

Obviously, there’s toxicity and you still have to deal with petty stuff at socials, but if you don’t think too much about it and can navigate around it, then everything will be fine.

Maybe it could also be that I didn’t really take rejection or perceived rudeness that personally? When I was very beginner, and a follower was bored, I didn’t really think too much about it or care. I noticed it, but it was more so just shrugged my shoulders and moved on. I was pretty oblivious when starting out.

Now that I’m more aware, obviously I would do things in the past perhaps a bit differently, but I’d still would go to socials early as I did - I would just make sure the social has a beginner class beforehand and know who to ask. But I don’t feel really ashamed about my actions and I wouldn’t have learned as quickly if I had done things differently.

Given this, is the salsa community really that hostile to newcomers?

 

[1derpalm]

My friend who is a goid dancer had people regularly walking off thd dance gloir for the first month, even though he danced in Malaysia and Hong Kong.
And the best lead in my city had women walk away from him 5 times a night when he was learning in Toronto. The salsa scene in big cities is like highschool. And they'll be Jerks and then their excuse is to act they are rags to riches working so hard for it, like that's an excuse to not be kind.
Also.. the post has disappeared, but a prominent dancer back in the day had a post called "the sacrifice dance". She told follows to just smile and try to be nice, because they are the future. Then told leads to only ask a good dancer once a month at most, as they aren't there to dance woth begjnners like you.
I would say, yes it's hostile to new leads. Or at very least it can be. Especially in big cities where they think that $5 k rent to live with giant cockroaches and rats you coukd saddle and ride means you're somebody special.

 

[n00bdancer]

My friend who is a goid dancer had people regularly walking off thd dance gloir for the first month, even though he danced in Malaysia and Hong Kong.
And the best lead in my city had women walk away from him 5 times a night when he was learning in Toronto. The salsa scene in big cities is like highschool. And they'll be Jerks and then their excuse is to act they are rags to riches working so hard for it, like that's an excuse to not be kind.
Also.. the post has disappeared, but a prominent dancer back in the day had a post called "the sacrifice dance". She told follows to just smile and try to be nice, because they are the future. Then told leads to only ask a good dancer once a month at most, as they aren't there to dance woth begjnners like you.
I would say, yes it's hostile to new leads. Or at very least it can be. Especially in big cities where they think that $5 k rent to live with giant cockroaches and rats you coukd saddle and ride means you're somebody special.

Yes, I understand, and I hear a lot of leads who give these types of anecdotes. It's just that in my case, I never really experienced it to this scale.

In 5 months, I think a follower has walked out mid dance like maybe 5-10 times in total. I think 2 of them were actually my fault for being too rough, but some of the others, I think the follower just didn't want to dance with me (e.g. making an excuse that it's too crowded) or they just simply ended the dance for a reason that I don't quite understand. Some of these followers weren't necessarily advanced, they were beginners, and I didn't really do anything skeptical in the dance like touch a more sensitive area or lead a risky move. Most of this happened with the first 1.5 months. This has rarely happened after that.

Most followers haven't really been mean to me. There was only one follower who criticized me one time and got agitated with me, but I just never have asked that follower to dance again and I don't go to that specific social anymore.

Other than that, maybe followers were a bit bored, but it wasn't even that common. Even during first 1.5 months, followers didn't look bored that often. Right now, I'm much better, and there are still some bored followers, but I think it's just always going to be the case, unless maybe you're a pro, but it's pretty rare right now (like maybe 1 out of 20 followers are bored dancing with me).

I'm able to get by in socials with minimal rejections just by doing this:

1. Not asking dancers by the dj booth or the back where "advanced" dancers congregate. "Advanced" because if you end up dancing with some of them, you realize a lot of them aren't actually that good.

2. Not asking followers who are sitting down, fixing themselves, or who are holding water bottles or other items. I only ask followers who are standing upright and clearly look ready to dance.

3. Treating anything other than a "yes" as a rejection. Excuses like "taking a break" means she doesn't want to dance with you. If a follower doesn't accept a dance, I won't ask them for the rest of that social, at least. No need to "chase" certain followers, when there are countless other women who are happy to dance with me.

In addition, you need to go to the right socials. I'd say the best are generally outdoor socials or studio socials, especially the ones that offer a beginner class beforehand. I don't do bar socials or the "premium" socials like LVG in nyc. I don't like jimmy anton either, and often it's a bit more expensive. Something like bailamos juntos is great.

 

[noobster]

Yes, I understand, and I hear a lot of leads who give these types of anecdotes. It's just that in my case, I never really experienced it to this scale.

In 5 months, I think a follower has walked out mid dance like maybe 5-10 times in total. I think 2 of them were actually my fault for being too rough, but some of the others, I think the follower just didn't want to dance with me (e.g. making an excuse that it's too crowded) or they just simply ended the dance for a reason that I don't quite understand. Some of these followers weren't necessarily advanced, they were beginners, and I didn't really do anything skeptical in the dance like touch a more sensitive area or lead a risky move. Most of this happened with the first 1.5 months. This has rarely happened after that.

Most followers haven't really been mean to me. There was only one follower who criticized me one time and got agitated with me, but I just never have asked that follower to dance again and I don't go to that specific social anymore.

Other than that, maybe followers were a bit bored, but it wasn't even that common. Even during first 1.5 months, followers didn't look bored that often. Right now, I'm much better, and there are still some bored followers, but I think it's just always going to be the case, unless maybe you're a pro, but it's pretty rare right now (like maybe 1 out of 20 followers are bored dancing with me).

I'm able to get by in socials with minimal rejections just by doing this:

1. Not asking dancers by the dj booth or the back where "advanced" dancers congregate. "Advanced" because if you end up dancing with some of them, you realize a lot of them aren't actually that good.

2. Not asking followers who are sitting down, fixing themselves, or who are holding water bottles or other items. I only ask followers who are standing upright and clearly look ready to dance.

3. Treating anything other than a "yes" as a rejection. Excuses like "taking a break" means she doesn't want to dance with you. If a follower doesn't accept a dance, I won't ask them for the rest of that social, at least. No need to "chase" certain followers, when there are countless other women who are happy to dance with me.

In addition, you need to go to the right socials. I'd say the best are generally outdoor socials or studio socials, especially the ones that offer a beginner class beforehand. I don't do bar socials or the "premium" socials like LVG in nyc. I don't like jimmy anton either, and often it's a bit more expensive. Something like bailamos juntos is great.

Wow yes you do have a thick skin.

People quit on you mid-dance on a monthly basis and you let that roll off your back? I mean, good for you (it can only help you and is actually really necessary if you plan to stick around).

As a beginner I had someone leave me on the floor mid-dance exactly once, and I was crushed and held a salsa grudge against him forever after

But at the same time, and especially if you suspect it might be because you are too rough, I'd suggest working to figure that out for yourself before you get a bad reputation. Maybe a private or two with a female teacher who follows socially. At 5 months in if people are still routinely walking out on you mid-dance, I'd suspect there is some kind of problem.

 

[1derpalm]

Wow yes you do have a thick skin.

People quit on you mid-dance on a monthly basis and you let that roll off your back? I mean, good for you (it can only help you and is actually really necessary if you plan to stick around).

As a beginner I had someone leave me on the floor mid-dance exactly once, and I was crushed and held a salsa grudge against him forever after

But at the same time, and especially if you suspect it might be because you are too rough, I'd suggest working to figure that out for yourself before you get a bad reputation. Maybe a private or two with a female teacher who follows socially. At 5 months in if people are still routinely walking out on you mid-dance, I'd suspect there is some kind of problem.

Yeah I hold grudges. A lady looked at her friends during our dance the whole time (literally fromt he first step I took). I was like "f@$k toronto, f$@k salsa. While we're at it, f$ck Pantera mambo and Achiripu, too!"

 

[n00bdancer]

Wow yes you do have a thick skin.

People quit on you mid-dance on a monthly basis and you let that roll off your back? I mean, good for you (it can only help you and is actually really necessary if you plan to stick around).

As a beginner I had someone leave me on the floor mid-dance exactly once, and I was crushed and held a salsa grudge against him forever after

But at the same time, and especially if you suspect it might be because you are too rough, I'd suggest working to figure that out for yourself before you get a bad reputation. Maybe a private or two with a female teacher who follows socially. At 5 months in if people are still routinely walking out on you mid-dance, I'd suspect there is some kind of problem.

The ones where I suspected it was due to me being rough were within the first 2 months. I haven’t had that problem since then and I think I have a pretty good grasp now of how to lead safely.

I don’t find it’s routine. I social dance like probably around 50 hours a month and this rarely happens. As I mentioned, I don’t think most of the other times were due to rough leading.

For example, one happened when a (beginner) follower bumped herself into other people while I was just stepping the basic with her. I didn’t see anyone else dance with her after that.

It happens like 1 out of 100 dances (and it’s probably much less than that - just a crude upper bound) and most of it is skewed towards the first 2 months so it’s not a big deal. There’s always going to be noise.

Why get worked up about 5 percent of followers not wanting to dance with me when I can just dance with the other 95 percent?

 

[1derpalm]

The ones where I suspected it was due to me being rough were within the first 2 months. I haven’t had that problem since then and I think I have a pretty good grasp now of how to lead safely.

I don’t find it’s routine. I social dance like probably around 50 hours a month and this rarely happens. As I mentioned, I don’t think most of the other times were due to rough leading.

For example, one happened when a (beginner) follower bumped herself into other people while I was just stepping the basic with her. I didn’t see anyone else dance with her after that.

It happens like 1 out of 100 dances (and it’s probably much less than that - just a crude upper bound) and most of it is skewed towards the first 2 months so it’s not a big deal. There’s always going to be noise.

Why get worked up about 5 percent of followers not wanting to dance with me when I can just dance with the other 95 percent?

Because the really good dancers are 5% of the crowd.
There may or Amy not be A time when it starts to get annoying. Sometimes if one girl (who you've never met) rudely dismisses you when you ask, follows witnessing it in her vicinity, whilst never seeing you before might think "she's a good dancers. She must have A Reason" then all the girls in that area will say no. If, like me, you luve 2.5 houra from the good dancing (so 5 hour round trip, this really really matters.

 

[noobster]

The ones where I suspected it was due to me being rough were within the first 2 months. I haven’t had that problem since then and I think I have a pretty good grasp now of how to lead safely.

I don’t find it’s routine. I social dance like probably around 50 hours a month and this rarely happens. As I mentioned, I don’t think most of the other times were due to rough leading.

For example, one happened when a (beginner) follower bumped herself into other people while I was just stepping the basic with her. I didn’t see anyone else dance with her after that.

It happens like 1 out of 100 dances (and it’s probably much less than that - just a crude upper bound) and most of it is skewed towards the first 2 months so it’s not a big deal. There’s always going to be noise.

Why get worked up about 5 percent of followers not wanting to dance with me when I can just dance with the other 95 percent?

Ok if it's no longer happening then no worries, maybe whatever the issue was is fixed.

I do think that being left mid-song is a bad sign in a way that someone just declining a dance is not. Declining is everyone's right and doesn't necessarily reflect on your dancing; they could be tired, not into the song, or just not up for an unknown quantity at that moment.

But if someone already agreed to dance with you and then bails out mid-song, that is a pretty clear sign that something is wrong, most likely either dangerous, rude, or painful dancing or else really unbearable personal hygiene.

I've only bailed out mid-song once in my life that I can recall and it was for overt sexual gesturing.

People do have different thresholds for this type of strong statement, so if 5% will leave mid-song, there could be others who are gritting their teeth and sticking it out in order to avoid being rude. You don't want that either though.

 

[noobster]

The ones where I suspected it was due to me being rough were within the first 2 months. I haven’t had that problem since then and I think I have a pretty good grasp now of how to lead safely.

I don’t find it’s routine. I social dance like probably around 50 hours a month and this rarely happens. As I mentioned, I don’t think most of the other times were due to rough leading.

For example, one happened when a (beginner) follower bumped herself into other people while I was just stepping the basic with her. I didn’t see anyone else dance with her after that.

It happens like 1 out of 100 dances (and it’s probably much less than that - just a crude upper bound) and most of it is skewed towards the first 2 months so it’s not a big deal. There’s always going to be noise.

Why get worked up about 5 percent of followers not wanting to dance with me when I can just dance with the other 95 percent?

Ok if it's no longer happening then no worries, maybe whatever the issue was is fixed.

I do think that being left mid-song is a bad sign in a way that someone just declining a dance is not. Declining is everyone's right and doesn't necessarily reflect on your dancing; they could be tired, not into the song, or just not up for an unknown quantity at that moment.

But if someone already agreed to dance with you and then bails out mid-song, that is a pretty clear sign that something is wrong, most likely either dangerous, rude, or painful dancing or else really unbearable personal hygiene.

I've only bailed out mid-song once in my life that I can recall and it was for overt sexual gesturing.

People do have different thresholds for this type of strong statement, so if 5% will leave mid-song, there could be others who are gritting their teeth and sticking it out in order to avoid being rude. You don't want that either though.

 

[n00bdancer]

Ok if it's no longer happening then no worries, maybe whatever the issue was is fixed.

I do think that being left mid-song is a bad sign in a way that someone just declining a dance is not. Declining is everyone's right and doesn't necessarily reflect on your dancing; they could be tired, not into the song, or just not up for an unknown quantity at that moment.
Dance

But if someone already agreed to dance with you and then bails out mid-song, that is a pretty clear sign that something is wrong, most likely either dangerous, rude, or painful dancing or else really unbearable personal hygiene.

I've only bailed out mid-song once in my life that I can recall and it was for overt sexual gesturing.

People do have different thresholds for this type of strong statement, so if 5% will leave mid-song, there could be others who are gritting their teeth and sticking it out in order to avoid being rude. You don't want that either though.

Sure I agree. Though as I said I’m confident there was never an issue. I have social danced a lot, like 40 hours a month. As a lower bound, let’s say that I’ve had at least 600 dances. Only 5 have walked out mid dance and really only 2 were due to bad leading when I was very beginner. And when it happened, I reflected so it didn’t happen again.

I’m pretty safe. I stick to classical moves and adapt to the follower’s level. I shower, brush my teeth, dress modestly, etc.

Several followers have told me that I lead clearly.

You can’t just over analyze a few bad dances. It’s not always that deep.

 

[n00bdancer]

Because the really good dancers are 5% of the crowd.
There may or Amy not be A time when it starts to get annoying. Sometimes if one girl (who you've never met) rudely dismisses you when you ask, follows witnessing it in her vicinity, whilst never seeing you before might think "she's a good dancers. She must have A Reason" then all the girls in that area will say no. If, like me, you luve 2.5 houra from the good dancing (so 5 hour round trip, this really really matters.

It depends on what you define as good but in nyc I would say it’s higher than 5 percent. Also selective dancers aren’t necessarily good dancers.

Though in your case I can see how it’s different. I don’t know what to say then. Experience will vary by location.

I’m just speaking from experience dancing salsa in a large city, that it is not hard to get good dances while having low rejections.