Why Are There So Few Female Salsa Singers?

[BullitproofSoul]

One School of Thought - The genre and its listeners are in themselves sexist and don't take female musicianship seriously.

Another School of Thought - There aren't very many talented female Salsa singers. If there were more good singers, they'd emerge and we'd hear them more.

Yet Another School of Thought - The sonero being a man is part of the formula of Salsa, like any other part of the formula, such as playing in clave.

 

[bailar y tocar]

First: I'll go with Jazz as an analogy.
There is a documentary called "The Girls in the Band" that was released in 2012 and shown in multiple film festivals. (Link to their website: http://thegirlsintheband.com/ )

The conclusion of the documentary is that male Jazz musicians in the earlier eras until around the 1970s were extremely sexist. They refused to play or tour with female musicians.

Nowadays the most exciting younger Jazz musicians are female, i.e. Hiromi, Maria Schneider, Anet Cohen, Esperanza Spaulding and many others.

Second: Lets look at the changing sound of salsa.
The 1960s and 70s featured salsa with a deeper vocal range, only lower pitch female voices would have fit in. While the sound from that era is still performed, the preferred vocal range has shifted significantly since then. In the salsa romantica era of the 90s, the higher pitch was the preferred sound and many more women performed.

Third: Geography.
In Cuba there have been plenty of women singers in salsa bands.
In Cali Colombia there are several all female salsa orchestras.
Many (non-famous) local salsa bands have female singers.

Final: Yes, if one is only looking at the small snippet of time and geography, i.e. NY/PR 1960-1970s, it looks like there are no female singers.

If one expands the view by time and geography, there are many more - but nowhere near the impact that women are having in Jazz - where they are clearly leading the way in terms of generating excitement. If there were more opportunities for live salsa bands, then some of the stellar performers from Jazz and other genres would likely cross over into salsa on some occasions. Unfortunately, the outlook for that development is dim, as the era of high $ live salsa gigs is over.

 

[BullitproofSoul]

I call machismo on this one.

 

[Sabrosura]

The lyrics of a lot of (old school) salsa songs also tend to be very sexist, demeaning and aggressive towards women.

Here is some relevant commentary from http://www.racialicious.com/2012/01/03/salsa-and-sexism-are-you-mouthing-misogyny :

"...under a microscope, the songs ooze sex—the ruling class sponsored kind that either idealizes or demonizes women while simultaneously objectifying them. Females across these genres are cast in three main roles:

• The young, virgin fruit, ripe to be plucked—by the song’s protagonist, of course
• The experienced seductress who drives the song’s protagonist to sexual desperation
• The deceptive, transgressing ***** who wrongfully broke the protagonist’s heart

She is usually anonymous— unnamed— and identified only by her physical characteristics and/or sexual desirability. That, or her wickeness and sexual impurity, as in the “scorned lover” songs so popular in bachata. In all cases, she is the victim of pre-meditated violence on the part of the protagonist, who vows in his lyrics either to use her sexually or abuse her violently."

 

[BullitproofSoul]

Hmmm, I think you're right...but now you're onto the tropes we cast women into in art and even society in general.

So I guess sexism in Salsa is just a subset of sexism in western culture.

 

[GroovyMambo]

The lyrics of a lot of (old school) salsa songs also tend to be very sexist, demeaning and aggressive towards women.

Here is some relevant commentary from http://www.racialicious.com/2012/01/03/salsa-and-sexism-are-you-mouthing-misogyny :

"...under a microscope, the songs ooze sex—the ruling class sponsored kind that either idealizes or demonizes women while simultaneously objectifying them. Females across these genres are cast in three main roles:

• The young, virgin fruit, ripe to be plucked—by the song’s protagonist, of course
• The experienced seductress who drives the song’s protagonist to sexual desperation
• The deceptive, transgressing ***** who wrongfully broke the protagonist’s heart

She is usually anonymous— unnamed— and identified only by her physical characteristics and/or sexual desirability. That, or her wickeness and sexual impurity, as in the “scorned lover” songs so popular in bachata. In all cases, she is the victim of pre-meditated violence on the part of the protagonist, who vows in his lyrics either to use her sexually or abuse her violently."

Nice post!

 

[bailar y tocar]

The lyrics of the old Cuban songs are not like that at all. The songs of the Machito, Tito Puente, Tito Rodriguez era are not like that either. The aggressive lyrics are a more recent thing and as such they are much more prevalent in hip-hop, rap and reggaeton.

Therefore, I don't think it has anything to do with why there were not more female 'salsa', 'mambo' 'latin' musicians in history.

I think the musicians back in the day were sexist , therefore little to no recordings beyond Celia Cruz and La Lupe (see Jazz musicians example).

Today, live music has experienced such a devastating decline that there just aren't any opportunities for many (men or women) to make an impact in salsa. Most of the music out there to day are recordings from a bygone era where the musicians were sexist.

 

[Salsa Student]

One School of Thought - The genre and its listeners are in themselves sexist and don't take female musicianship seriously.

Another School of Thought - There aren't very many talented female Salsa singers. If there were more good singers, they'd emerge and we'd hear them more.

Yet Another School of Thought - The sonero being a man is part of the formula of Salsa, like any other part of the formula, such as playing in clave.

Honestly, I think the fact that #2 is taken seriously shows there's some truth to #1.

 

[Sabrosura]

Hmmm, I think you're right...but now you're onto the tropes we cast women into in art and even society in general.

So I guess sexism in Salsa is just a subset of sexism in western culture.

Not just Western culture, worldwide culture, and in many non-Western cultures it's much more than what is referred to as "sexism" in the West, it is plain old patriarchal control of women's lives and deaths. So when thinking of something like this for example which is considered normal in some parts of the world (the man who did this faced no punishment for what he did), "Western sexism" such as in salsa music becomes "mild" by comparison: http://www.ibtimes.com/yemeni-child...internal-injuries-after-wedding-night-1404210

Here is what life (and death) is like for many, many women *right now, in the 21st century*: http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

It's probably a reason why I never cared about learning the lyrics of salsa songs (I speak Spanish) even though I love the music, whereas (as @groovetpt has often said) Latin Americans love singing along to salsa songs and know all the lyrics. I've also noticed I seem to have trained myself to ignore the lyrics--for example when non-Spanish speaking friends ask me what a certain song that is playing is about, I usually realize that "I don't know, I wasn't listening to the lyrics"--pretty striking, given how much I enjoy the music. For example one of my favorite songs is "Lloraras"--and when it's playing I sometimes find myself singing along just because I like the music so much, but after singing along "lloraras y lloraras" a couple of times I tend to start feeling a sort of innate repulsion towards the lyrics (even though, as I said above, I seem to subconsciously try to ignore the meaning) and I go back to focusing on the music and ignoring the lyrics.

Here are the lyrics of "Lloraras" -- a great example of the "The deceptive, transgressing ***** who wrongfully broke the protagonist’s heart" type of song mentioned above.

Sé que tu no quieres,
que yo a ti te quiera
siempre tu me esquivas
de alguna manera
si te busco por aquí
me sales por allá
lo único que yo quiero
es que no me hagas sufrir más

Por tu mal comportamiento,
te vas a arrepentir
muy caro tendrás que pagar
todo mi sufrimiemto
Llorarás y llorarás
sin nadie que te consuele
y así te darás de cuenta
que si te engañan duele

Y después vendrás a mí,
pidiéndome perdón
pero ya mi corazón,
no se acuerda más de tí
Llorarás y llorarás
sin nadie que te consuele
y así te darás de cuenta
que si te engañan duele

CORO: Llorarás, lloraras, llorarás.
Como lo sufrí yo
Nadie te comprendera
Todo lo mala que has sido
Mamita, tú lo pagaras.
Mi vida voy a vivir
Mi vida como yo quiero
Echa' pa elante, yo me voy

 

[DJ Yuca]

One School of Thought - The genre and its listeners are in themselves sexist and don't take female musicianship seriously.

Another School of Thought - There aren't very many talented female Salsa singers. If there were more good singers, they'd emerge and we'd hear them more.

Yet Another School of Thought - The sonero being a man is part of the formula of Salsa, like any other part of the formula, such as playing in clave.

Maybe the sound of a female vocal just doesn't suit the typical mambo and salsa sound as much as a male vocal does. Compare the prevalence of violins in salsa as compared to pianos - the latter are far more common. Does this mean that salsa listeners don't take violin players seriously? Or there aren't very many talented violin players (if there were more good violin players they'd emerge and we'd hear them more)?

Much as I love certain recordings with violin in, it's not a sound I want to hear over and over. And much as I love listening to Celia, Graciela and others, generally speaking I prefer male singers. Aesthetics and nothing more.

However sexism within salsa may well have deterred female singers from pursuing their careers. But I think aesthetics is the main reason.

 

[Sabrosura]

Maybe the sound of a female vocal just doesn't suit the typical mambo and salsa sound as much as a male vocal does. Compare the prevalence of violins in salsa as compared to pianos - the latter are far more common. Does this mean that salsa listeners don't take violin players seriously? Or there aren't very many talented violin players (if there were more good violin players they'd emerge and we'd hear them more)?

Much as I love certain recordings with violin in, it's not a sound I want to hear over and over. And much as I love listening to Celia, Graciela and others, generally speaking I prefer male singers. Aesthetics and nothing more.

However sexism within salsa may well have deterred female singers from pursuing their careers. But I think aesthetics is the main reason.

You have to keep in mind that our tastes are often influenced by what we are exposed to more frequently. The fact that you (and others) prefer male voices in salsa may also be a reflection of the fact that male voices are prevalent and therefore what salsa listeners are mostly exposed to.

Also: What about the lack of not just female singers, but female instrument players in salsa/Latin music? There is no voice aesthetics involved there.

 

[calichris10]

Not just Western culture, worldwide culture, and in many non-Western cultures it's much more than what is referred to as "sexism" in the West, it is plain old patriarchal control of women's lives and deaths. So when thinking of something like this for example which is considered normal in some parts of the world (the man who did this faced no punishment for what he did), "Western sexism" such as in salsa music becomes "mild" by comparison: http://www.ibtimes.com/yemeni-child...internal-injuries-after-wedding-night-1404210

Here is what life (and death) is like for many, many women *right now, in the 21st century*: http://www.meforum.org/2646/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings

It's probably a reason why I never cared about learning the lyrics of salsa songs (I speak Spanish) even though I love the music, whereas (as @groovetpt has often said) Latin Americans love singing along to salsa songs and know all the lyrics. I've also noticed I seem to have trained myself to ignore the lyrics--for example when non-Spanish speaking friends ask me what a certain song that is playing is about, I usually realize that "I don't know, I wasn't listening to the lyrics"--pretty striking, given how much I enjoy the music. For example one of my favorite songs is "Lloraras"--and when it's playing I sometimes find myself singing along just because I like the music so much, but after singing along "lloraras y lloraras" a couple of times I tend to start feeling a sort of innate repulsion towards the lyrics (even though, as I said above, I seem to subconsciously try to ignore the meaning) and I go back to focusing on the music and ignoring the lyrics.

Here are the lyrics of "Lloraras" -- a great example of the "The deceptive, transgressing ***** who wrongfully broke the protagonist’s heart" type of song mentioned above.

Sé que tu no quieres,
que yo a ti te quiera
siempre tu me esquivas
de alguna manera
si te busco por aquí
me sales por allá
lo único que yo quiero
es que no me hagas sufrir más

Por tu mal comportamiento,
te vas a arrepentir
muy caro tendrás que pagar
todo mi sufrimiemto
Llorarás y llorarás
sin nadie que te consuele
y así te darás de cuenta
que si te engañan duele

Y después vendrás a mí,
pidiéndome perdón
pero ya mi corazón,
no se acuerda más de tí
Llorarás y llorarás
sin nadie que te consuele
y así te darás de cuenta
que si te engañan duele

CORO: Llorarás, lloraras, llorarás.
Como lo sufrí yo
Nadie te comprendera
Todo lo mala que has sido
Mamita, tú lo pagaras.
Mi vida voy a vivir
Mi vida como yo quiero
Echa' pa elante, yo me voy

Why are you repulsed by this?

 

[Sabrosura]

Why are you repulsed by this?

The lyrics of a lot of (old school) salsa songs also tend to be very sexist, demeaning and aggressive towards women.

Here is some relevant commentary from http://www.racialicious.com/2012/01/03/salsa-and-sexism-are-you-mouthing-misogyny :

"...under a microscope, the songs ooze sex—the ruling class sponsored kind that either idealizes or demonizes women while simultaneously objectifying them. Females across these genres are cast in three main roles:

• The young, virgin fruit, ripe to be plucked—by the song’s protagonist, of course
• The experienced seductress who drives the song’s protagonist to sexual desperation
• The deceptive, transgressing ***** who wrongfully broke the protagonist’s heart

She is usually anonymous— unnamed— and identified only by her physical characteristics and/or sexual desirability. That, or her wickeness and sexual impurity, as in the “scorned lover” songs so popular in bachata. In all cases, she is the victim of pre-meditated violence on the part of the protagonist, who vows in his lyrics either to use her sexually or abuse her violently."

 

[calichris10]

what do you find sexist about lloraras?

 

[bailar y tocar]

Maybe the sound of a female vocal just doesn't suit the typical mambo and salsa sound as much as a male vocal does.

However sexism within salsa may well have deterred female singers from pursuing their careers. But I think aesthetics is the main reason.

You have to keep in mind that our tastes are often influenced by what we are exposed to more frequently. The fact that you (and others) prefer male voices in salsa may also be a reflection of the fact that male voices are prevalent and therefore what salsa listeners are mostly exposed to.

Also: What about the lack of not just female singers, but female instrument players in salsa/Latin music? There is no voice aesthetics involved there.

I am not buying into the aesthetics aspect.
Case#1: Hector Lavoe and Frankie Ruiz had high pitched voices and sang many of their songs in the upper register of their pitch.
Case#2: Herman Oliveira and Ruben Blades have high pitched voices and sing most of their songs in the upper register.
Case#3: Orq Guyacan and Grupo Niche have a signature sound with high pitched (male) voices. Female vocal range would fit equally well but with wider dynamic range, i.e. they would actually be better.
Case#4: Los Van Van migrated from Pedrito (deep register baritone) to Lele, Roberton, Mayito and all the way to Yeni (mid register soprano). Yeni* now sings LVV's most popular songs and is the legitimate lead singer of the band. (*Yeni didn't get there because of her looks, its her sound and the feeling she puts into the delivery)

Counter Case: Only El Gran Combo and Sonora Poncena have a sound that is distinctive and tied to the male baritone register.

I am going with what I quoted in bold above and its because the guys in the band that dont want girls in the band - which is exactly what the Jazz music documentary ("the girls in the band") was about, its exactly the same for salsa.

 

[groovetpt]

Counter Case: Only El Gran Combo and Sonora Poncena have a sound that is distinctive and tied to the male baritone register.

Yet Yolanda Rivera was an integral part of the Ponceña sound at one time. A totally unique and distinct voice, high pitched with a lot of vibrato. I love her.

 

[groovetpt]

I am extremely proud to be a current member of the orchestas of Cita Rodriguez, Nayibe La Gitana and Brenda K Starr. All great voices and talents. I have also had the honor of working with Yolanda Rivera, Yoko La Japonesa Salsera, Mimi Ibarra and Sol.

And for me it is a special night when there is a female voice in the coro. It makes for a great contrast in the sound of a band.

Salsera Power!

 

[timberamayor]

what do you find sexist about lloraras?

This wasn't directed at me but personally Lllorarás ins't particularly sexist IMO., You could change mamita for papito and a woman could sing it, so I think it's just a typical break up type love songs as you would find in pop or any genre. There are plenty of very sexist songs however. But IMO this isn't one of them.

 

[timberamayor]

One School of Thought - The genre and its listeners are in themselves sexist and don't take female musicianship seriously.

Another School of Thought - There aren't very many talented female Salsa singers. If there were more good singers, they'd emerge and we'd hear them more.

Yet Another School of Thought - The sonero being a man is part of the formula of Salsa, like any other part of the formula, such as playing in clave.

1: Yes salsa is a very male dominated music genre from a very machista culture. But we are seeing more bands including women. Issac and Paulo FG both had their sisters as coristas, Van Van now has Yeni. NG has had various women pass through. Pupy tried it and didn't like it. For me the two best have been Bamboleo and Azúcar Negra with excellent singers and lyrics. But Limonta changed to all male now, saying they get more women at concerts when it's a bunch of cute guys and them men will go wherever the women are going..
2: I think salsa requires a different type of vocals and many excellent female singers are more interested in being a new Whitney Houston of Beyonce than singing salsa style vocals. Even great timberas such as Haila and Vannia went over to singing more jazz and ballads when they left timba. they may do an occasional dance song, but have basically switched genres.
3: Nah, I don't think that matters much.

But being as most songs are written by men in the salsa world, there aren't as many good songs for women to sing either. The best songs IMO have been those by Bamboleo and Azúcar Negra. Great lyrics and the women get the chance to sing about the man as the bad guy in the relationship. Plus they have more hardcore lyrics rather than crying over lost love like a lot of salsa romantica songs.
Classic songs such as
Ya no hace falta
Se acabó la rabía
Vengo de estreno
Con un canto en el pecho
Después de todo is also great by Van Van

Cuba has it's all female bands like Anacaona and D'Talle (who all defecetd to Canada years ago). But there are new groups such as Yuli y Havana C, with a female bandleader and both male and female lead vocalists. Another female singer who is very popular right now in Cuba is Larizta Bacallao. BUt both Havana C and Laritza do more the modern pop/dance music which has touches of salsa or merengue or whatever and isn't real salsa. That's juts a general trend right now among the young bands.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

Cuba has it's all female bands like Anacaona and D'Talle (who all defecetd to Canada years ago). But there are new groups such as Yuli y Havana C, with a female bandleader and both male and female lead vocalists. Another female singer who is very popular right now in Cuba is Larizta Bacallao. BUt both Havana C and Laritza do more the modern pop/dance music which has touches of salsa or merengue or whatever and isn't real salsa. That's juts a general trend right now among the young bands.

Las Chicas del Sol? Cuban and not Peruvian