When dancers start to charge for their information. No certification needed?

[Bob Dabilder]

I'd like to bring up a topic I am running in to that is worth discussing. When do dancers transiton in to instructors or charge for their knowledge? Why is pricing vary so much between venues?


I am new, about 1 1/2 years taking Salsa lessons. I get FB invites to many events but I like the workshops to learn and grow…

More than once I felt the workshop wasn't worth the price.

I signed up for Kizomba / Zouk workshop and dance boasting instructors from Detroit. Not sure how close Detroit is to Angola ;-) The gal that was teaching started by explaining she has international experience and been doing Kizomba for 2 years...I suspect she only attended an international event not taught.

She absolutely didn't know what she was talking about from a technical perspective. The concept of footwork or connection she was lost…....IMO she probably is a great Kizomba "follow" because she is shapely and can move her hips dramatically like you see on the sexy videos of Kizomaba…(she has that down pat) but that does not equate in to charging for 1 1/2 hours of instruction.

When asked a simple question about connection she said "I don't know I just feel it" ??? I was mortified and felt bad for the guy who asked....

I'm not cheap don’t get me wrong, but thats not the first time I paid for what I thought would be really good dance information and practice but it turned out to be someone who decided they were qualified to charge people for their information and they are not very qualified to do so.....It feel like some people take advantage of the "new dancer" enthusiasm to make a buck.

Can we discuss that? It's starting to turn me off to dancing if I feel "gamed" or "fleeced"...

 

[vit]

Yeah, this problem was mentioned in various threads although I don't remember that there was a dedicated thread about it. There are many wannabe dance teachers around the globe and even many with various certificates are not good. Very small percentage are actually able to teach dancing effectively

Good students are only evidence of a good teacher. So find people that dance up to your taste and ask them who did they learn from

Among various dance genres, finding an useful kizomba teacher is probably the hardest or close to impossible

 

[Bob Dabilder]

Yeah, this problem was mentioned in various threads although I don't remember that there was a dedicated thread about it. There are many wannabe dance teachers around the globe and even many with various certificates are not good. Very small percentage are actually able to teach dancing effectively

Good students are only evidence of a good teacher. So find people that dance up to your taste and ask them who did they learn from

Among various dance genres, finding an useful kizomba teacher is probably the hardest or close to impossible

Thank-you for reply...I think the Kizomba instruction varies because everyone creates they're own ending of the forward/back basic to get to the 8 count...I saw it done 4 different ways......Your advice is good, and I hope I wasn't negative...I just feel there are folks that should not be trying to draw revenue from very limited knowledge and few years of experience.....Because of that reason I booked a trip to DR to learn Bachata from the real deal locals and bring back what I learned to my studio......

 

[terence]

Because of that reason I booked a trip to DR to learn Bachata from the real deal locals and bring back what I learned to my studio......

Welcome to the world of "dance ".. this problem exists in all genres . The distinction for the student, between competent, and not, is nigh impossible for the majority of new students .

And, do NOT assume that, all native born "teachers" are going to resolve your problems. Some of the posters have 1st hand experience on locales, and they may give some factual advice..

 

[Abraham R.]

Teaching is a completely different art than dancing. A great teacher might not be a great dancer and a great dancer might not be a great teacher. If you are lucky (really lucky) you will find someone who is both. We must also make a distinction between a dancer with lots of great information and knowledge and a dancer who can communicate ideas (of dance or whatever) effectively.

There is a great quote from John Steinbeck: "I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit."

There are many reasons why workshops or classes leave people feeling like they didn't learn anything, or if they did learn something they end up feeling like they overpaid. If the instructor's dance level is low then the reasons are obvious however as the dance level of the instructor goes up we run into different problems.

First problem: This instructor is a natural dancer so how can they explain to somebody how to do something. These people should instead be called dance demonstrators because all then can do is tell you or show you what to do but not how.

Second problem: This instructor knows how to teach ok but their knowledge and information is limited or many times just wrong.

Third problem: This instructor knows a lot and might be a master dancer. He or she has a lot of great information but lack "real teaching skills". I define real teaching skills as the skill to teach to the students that struggle the most (people with 3 left feet). I call these instructors "gurus." They say nice things and know a lot but it doesn't mean you will benefit from it.

fourth problem: This instructor has a fancy title to accompany their name but it doesn't mean anything. I would say that at any given time there is like 100 world champions per dance genre in the world so unless you know what competition they won and are familiar with the "real" top world champions it might not mean much. This instructor might call themselves experts or many other things but it doesn't mean anything.

fifth problem: If you want to learn to social dance a competition dancer might not help you much and a social dancer might not help you perform well.

sixth problem: The scene has grown accustomed to workshops and classes that teach only steps with little actual "how". Because of this people want to take classes that trick them into thinking they learned something not a class where they really learn. This is especially true when it comes to partnering. Learning a step like choreography doesn't mean it will actually happen when you really social dance.

seventh problem: Its hard to teach(to really teach.)

eight problem: Great dancers are always looking at how they can become better dancers. Great dancers are not always looking at how they can become better teachers.

I am myself a dance instructor. In fact I believe that my talent is teaching and not dancing. I had to work really hard to become the dancer i am now because i had to really understand what I'm doing. I feel like i need to improve a lot on my dancing and gain more information and skill but what i can do i can teach (at least most of it.) And even though I feel like I'm a great instructor i still feel like there is and will always be a ton of improvement possible for me as a teacher.

My advice to you is to keep looking for a great instructor and to ask people about great teachers. Ask great dancers, ask students, or even here at Salsa Forums.

 

[LarsM]

Nice post Abraham. I'd like to add a point: making tacit knowledge explicit is hard - especially if you have to do it for a group of people with varied backgrounds, like in dance classes. Especially at higher levels of proficiency in any profession, but especially physical ones, the expert has a metric ton of tacit knowledge stored in his brain. Some of that can be really, really hard to express explicitly, particularly if the expert isn't used to doing so. Probably the reason why mentor - apprentice relationships are/were common in professions like smithing, glassblowing etc. Some aspects are just too hard to explain in words. Teaching someone a skill might require a combination of mimicry, demonstration, explicit oral instruction, written rules and so forth.

Cliffs: teaching is hard

 

[terence]

seventh problem: Its hard to teach(to really teach.)


.

I agree with the majority of your post, with this exception..

"Teaching " IF properly trained, and with guidance, is often down to common sense. Pretty much all techn. has been well established and the variants are also available thru research, in all genres.

Looking back to when I first began my teaching career, I know now how little I knew, but what I did know was solid foundational aspects.
Having danced socially and competitively, it gave me a wealth of untapped knowledge . Coping with students, and all their different issues, became a second issue that needed developing .

I found thru my past experiences with world class Profs. one of the key qualities, was personality .

I would also stress this; the new student needs to find someone with a strong dance and teaching background, and invest in a few private lessons . From this, it will give you an insight to future class and congress class work ( which is sadly lacking in many aspects, due to the structure , and some times, the "teacher" .
.

 

[salsapeople]

Hey! As my opinion/views on that is, Whether you identify yourself as a teacher or an educator is a personal choice. The terminology can vary, but the role is the same. Learning how to be a good dance teacher is about much more than simply correcting form and demonstrating the right techniques.
The most effective teachers are the ones that truly try to see things from their students’ perspectives and are understanding about their unique concerns, fears and struggles.