What would you tell yourself if you had a time machine?

S

smiling28

Moderator
So,

second post.

Background
---------------
I am now 26, always a male :) and am still coming out of my shell. I am 6 foot 2 and a muscular build now after a LOT of training :) I have trained martial arts a long time at a very high level.

I was a SUPER SKINNY 6"2 13 year old with size 14 feet. I just stopped growing. Not the most co-ordinated cat either and SUPER shy, despite being a Leo (cat reference and all :) )

We had some ballroom dance classes at school but I was TOO SHY to dance with the girls and not too popular either. *Kicks self for thinking that way. Being successful at sport (first basketball then martial arts) really helped. I am glad I was shy now as it helps me relate to many different personality types. Most would call me outgoing and extraverted now.

So fast forward, here I am now 26 and SUPER keen to learn how to dance. I have taken Salsa lessons for 3 weeks now. 4 beginnner classes per week plus social dancing with some good friends of mine (I like to REALLY get into things :) )

I can only do the beginner classes due to schedule clashes and my availability.

Thus, the VERY basics. Great for me to practice. Only issue is that I am ALWAYS dancing with absolute beginners. Or my friends who are very experienced.

I am trying to give myself the best basics possible and avoid potential bad habits eg.

* The very experienced girls that I dance with almost lead me which I am wary of.
* I try and look at the eyes of my partner. None of the beginners maintain eye contact *should I not look so as not to put them off?
* I am wary of learning to dance by repetition of CERTAIN movements and not principles thus I would not be able to apply my developed skills outside my comfort zone.


Can you guys suggest things for:

a) every beginner. What would you do again if you could? What would you tell yourself when starting out? What would you tell anyone?

b) Based on the above background, what do you suggest I do to get the most out of Salsa?

* I will obviously slow down the classes at some point but am LOVING it now so going with it :)
I have never quit anything in my life and repetition does not bother me.

thanks everyone and happy dancing!
 
God, I can witter on. Anyway here are my thoughts...

* The very experienced girls that I dance with almost lead me which I am wary of.
Click to expand...

Don't worry too much about this - as discussed in your other thread, they can sense that you're lead isn't that developed and are helping you out. I'm sure you'd rather they didn't, but as long as you're aware that they are doing it and are having dances with less experienced women (so you can properly test your lead) then I'd say this is a pretty normal phenomenon for beginning men. Even so, it's impressive that you feel confident dancing with experienced ladies - they used to scare the hell out of me :)

* I try and look at the eyes of my partner. None of the beginners maintain eye contact *should I not look so as not to put them off?
Click to expand...

This does help a lot - connection is important. Maintaining constant (or almost constant) eye contact can be a bit weird though. My instructor told me that as long as you have the lady's attention prior to leading a move then this is sufficient. Lots of eye contact ups the intensity of a dance ten fold though.

* I am wary of learning to dance by repetition of CERTAIN movements and not principles thus I would not be able to apply my developed skills outside my comfort zone.
Click to expand...

If you're thinking this after just 3 weeks; you have the potential to be a great dancer. There are lots of threads on the forum discussing this.

Can you guys suggest things for:

a) every beginner. What would you do again if you could? What would you tell yourself when starting out? What would you tell anyone?
Click to expand...

I am pretty happy with how I approached things - though perhaps I was too serious, which made my first 3 months a bit up and down. I really concentrated on my basic step and timing - lots of practice at home. There are so many people who neglect this and think salsa is all about learning moves - they advance up the various levels taking more and more difficult lessons, but get them on the dance floor and they can't hold time or have weird/messy basic footwork.
Get your footwork and timing down, so you don't have to think about it - this will free your mind to engage with your partner and properly lead what you want.
Also listen to as much salsa as you can - the best dancers reflect the music. Again there are lots of threads here about dancing to the music, rather than just doing moves.
Though you don't seem to be shy :) do as much social dancing as you can.

b) Based on the above background, what do you suggest I do to get the most out of Salsa?
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the fact that you can only take beginner lessons - or your martial arts background? Both perhaps?

If you have a tight schedule, private lessons may be the answer - though I've never taken one, an hour with a good instructor must be the equivalent of 6 group lessons (possibly more).
You mention only getting to dance with experienced ladies (who sometimes lead themselves) or total beginners (who won't be as good). Remember that if these beginner ladies are regular attendees and take things reasonably seriously, then in a month or so they will be taking harder classes. Three weeks isn't a long time - the beginners will get better and the experienced ladies will get to know you and start trusting your lead.
Also remember that dancing with a beginner is a real test of your skills - if they are not following what you lead then this is your problem, not theirs.

If you're a proficient martial artist - then your core stability is probably very good, likewise you're going to be light on your feet and have excellent fitness levels. These are very transferable skills and will give you a head start with a number of the more advanced techniques found in salsa. In this respect the world is your oyster - however try and maintain your enthusiasm and passion. Some experienced and highly skilled dancers exude a 'cool deadness' that I find very unattractive. It's like they dance because they can - not because they have to.

See the Salsa Burnout thread :)
 
AndrewD said:
Also listen to as much salsa as you can - the best dancers reflect the music.
Click to expand...

This is so important, but advice ignored my many many dancers. You're dancing salsa, which means that it's a great help to be able to find your way around different styles and tempi of salsa music - from very slow cha cha chas to super fast mambos. Listening to a wide variety of salsa music will really help you connect to the beat - whether you're an on1 or an on2 dancer, if you lose the beat (or, as in a lot of cases I see, make no attempt to find it in the first place), you'll get frustrated. Learn to love the music and the dance will come much easier. You don't have to spend a fortune on salsa records, take out a free subscription to Live365 internet radio and you'll be able to choose from dozens, if not hundreds, of diferent stations playing all kinds of salsa. If you're free to do so, practice your basic step to different speeds and make sure you're always on time. Getting your basic footwork and timing sorted out as early as possible will make everything that follows an awful lot easier.
 
Your background is quite similar to mine when I started, although I didn't find Salsa until I was 34 (now 38).

smiling28 said:
Can you guys suggest things for:

a) every beginner. What would you do again if you could? What would you tell yourself when starting out? What would you tell anyone?
Click to expand...

Check out this thread for some things to try. I advise you just pick one thing to work on at a time, like timing until you get that solid then move on to the next.

http://www.dance-forums.com/showthread.php?t=13351

smiling28 said:
b) Based on the above background, what do you suggest I do to get the most out of Salsa?

* I will obviously slow down the classes at some point but am LOVING it now so going with it :)
I have never quit anything in my life and repetition does not bother me.
Click to expand...

You're going to be a hard-core Salsero in no-time, so my advice is to take it slow and enjoy the experience. Once you get addicted you're going to be in this for the long haul and we never stop learning, practicing and improving so just make friends with the people you dance with because you're going to be seeing a lot of them!

Also, why not register on dance-forums as well when you have time? Most of us are on both boards.
 
In all honesty, the main thing I'd tell myself if I had a time machine would be to start dancing earlier in my life. If only I'd started 2 or 3 years sooner, I'd be so much better right now. :D

Agree with the others in encouraging you not to try to master every move you get taught. That's impossible! We've all forgotten 90% of the routines we've been shown in classes. Get your timing down first, then try to master about a dozen moves, taking a couple at a time, and get these sorted so you can lead them smoothly, in any order and leading with either hand and you'll have a great basis to move up from.

Don't be in a hurry to learn a million moves, i've never met a girl yet who doesn't prefer to have a dance where a small number of moves are led well, on time, with eye contact and where she's given some opportunity to express herself, than being dragged and jerked through 50 moves badly, out of time by a lead who doesn't know what he's doing.

Oh, and don't forget to enjoy yourself and help your dance partners enjoy themselves too - there are too man leaders out there who blame the person they're dancing with for everything that goes wrong on the floor.
 
I do not have a time machine but I have the next best thing, a teacher with so much experience that I figure he's got twenty-something years worth of answers more than I have questions. Other than dance moves and techniques I have learned a lot of more important things, like...

Never take classes from instructors that says things are hard.

You will never learn everything, so do not hurry.

If you ever stop having fun, or start taking your salsa too seriously, quit.

You will never have time to make all the mistakes yourself, so you are better off learning from other people's mistakes.

Salsa is not everything, but everything can be salsa.

Pure salsa is an oxymoron.
 
People have given you lots of great advice in this thread, but I will review my own thoughts:

1. Master the basics. It all starts with your footwork. From doing a basic right turn to keeping your footwork as small as possible. While you can learn this from group classes, it is probably easiest worked on with a private teacher - or at the very least a salsa DVD that breaks down very specific moves. This might seem tedious and boring at first, but the earlier you get your basic hook, axle, single / double turns; back-charging and other footwork down.

The good news is that you can do all of this by yourself and on your own time – just make certain that you are doing it correctly or you will be perfecting mistakes instead of becoming more proficient.

2. Listen to lots of music. As others have mentioned, the more music you expose yourself to, the quicker you will learn how to count and eventually how to play and dance to the music. If possible, try to listen to what you hear in class and out in clubs and at socials because then you will be able to actually mix your dancing with your new appreciation of the music. This will take time, but it is important that you start thinking about it early on.

3. On a related note, make certain you can count and keep the beat. Some women can’t stand guys that dance off of the beat.

4. Once you have the basics down, get yourself out on the dance floor as much as possible. While followers are going to have to be patient with you at first, it is important for you to get as much floor time in as possible.

5. Blame yourself and no one else for your dancing experiences. Too many guys try to blame their followers for “bad” dances and the such, when it is the leader’s responsibility to make the necessary adjustments with different followers – no matter what their dancing level might be.

6. Keep your pattern work simple at first and add moves slowly and only after you have mastered the old ones. Some of the “best” leaders out there don’t have a ton of moves but know how to execute what they do well. Practice your new moves in class and friends and save your established moves for new and unfamiliar partners.

Because you have been dancing for only a short while, some very experienced women might end up leading themselves (and you). Don’t let this discourage you – it won’t happen once you have established your lead.

As for eye contact, some is nice, especially at key moments during the song (yet another reason to know your music) but starring at a girl will probably creep her out.

Overall, be patient and work on your dancing piece by piece. In several months you will see things come together….
 
Thanks Everyone! Brilliant and encouraging replies. Thank you!

What I was doing so far was :

Getting basic step so I do not have to think about it
Getting rhythm to different types of music especially tempo (eg. live band vs CD)
Feeling the dance and song and partner as one
Learning how to lead
Listening to the music as much as possible. Very nice!

*almost exactly what everyone suggested. Thanks


- as for my class.

I should explain.

I can only do the first class of the night for ABSOLUTE beginners. Once they have done 1 or 2 classes, then they move to the next. In my class I only do (forgive the misspelling, I spell how it sounds)

basic step forward and backward (closed)
exhibe (spin girl)
Darme (pass girl onto new partner)

I have also done darme into open stance, and dilicano (spin from open stance back into closed stance.


I think I have the move names right but feel free to correct me?
Plus then I have the dances with the more experienced girls. *Not that I am confident enough to do it, but I have some nice friends who pull me up and force me saying it is the best way to learn :)

*some are nice some not. Good fun though
 
memito said:
People have given you lots of great advice in this thread, but I will review my own thoughts:

1. Master the basics. It all starts with your footwork. From doing a basic right turn to keeping your footwork as small as possible. While you can learn this from group classes, it is probably easiest worked on with a private teacher - or at the very least a salsa DVD that breaks down very specific moves. This might seem tedious and boring at first, but the earlier you get your basic hook, axle, single / double turns; back-charging and other footwork down.

The good news is that you can do all of this by yourself and on your own time – just make certain that you are doing it correctly or you will be perfecting mistakes instead of becoming more proficient.

2. Listen to lots of music. As others have mentioned, the more music you expose yourself to, the quicker you will learn how to count and eventually how to play and dance to the music. If possible, try to listen to what you hear in class and out in clubs and at socials because then you will be able to actually mix your dancing with your new appreciation of the music. This will take time, but it is important that you start thinking about it early on.

3. On a related note, make certain you can count and keep the beat. Some women can’t stand guys that dance off of the beat.

4. Once you have the basics down, get yourself out on the dance floor as much as possible. While followers are going to have to be patient with you at first, it is important for you to get as much floor time in as possible.

5. Blame yourself and no one else for your dancing experiences. Too many guys try to blame their followers for “bad” dances and the such, when it is the leader’s responsibility to make the necessary adjustments with different followers – no matter what their dancing level might be.

6. Keep your pattern work simple at first and add moves slowly and only after you have mastered the old ones. Some of the “best” leaders out there don’t have a ton of moves but know how to execute what they do well. Practice your new moves in class and friends and save your established moves for new and unfamiliar partners.

Because you have been dancing for only a short while, some very experienced women might end up leading themselves (and you). Don’t let this discourage you – it won’t happen once you have established your lead.

As for eye contact, some is nice, especially at key moments during the song (yet another reason to know your music) but starring at a girl will probably creep her out.

Overall, be patient and work on your dancing piece by piece. In several months you will see things come together….
Click to expand...

pure gospel! thank you!!!!!
 
smiling28 said:
So,

second post.

Background
---------------
I am now 26, always a male :) and am still coming out of my shell. I am 6 foot 2 and a muscular build now after a LOT of training :) I have trained martial arts a long time at a very high level.

I was a SUPER SKINNY 6"2 13 year old with size 14 feet. I just stopped growing. Not the most co-ordinated cat either and SUPER shy, despite being a Leo (cat reference and all :) )

We had some ballroom dance classes at school but I was TOO SHY to dance with the girls and not too popular either. *Kicks self for thinking that way. Being successful at sport (first basketball then martial arts) really helped. I am glad I was shy now as it helps me relate to many different personality types. Most would call me outgoing and extraverted now.

So fast forward, here I am now 26 and SUPER keen to learn how to dance. I have taken Salsa lessons for 3 weeks now. 4 beginnner classes per week plus social dancing with some good friends of mine (I like to REALLY get into things :) )

I can only do the beginner classes due to schedule clashes and my availability.

Thus, the VERY basics. Great for me to practice. Only issue is that I am ALWAYS dancing with absolute beginners. Or my friends who are very experienced.

I am trying to give myself the best basics possible and avoid potential bad habits eg.

* The very experienced girls that I dance with almost lead me which I am wary of.
* I try and look at the eyes of my partner. None of the beginners maintain eye contact *should I not look so as not to put them off?
* I am wary of learning to dance by repetition of CERTAIN movements and not principles thus I would not be able to apply my developed skills outside my comfort zone.


Can you guys suggest things for:

a) every beginner. What would you do again if you could? What would you tell yourself when starting out? What would you tell anyone?

b) Based on the above background, what do you suggest I do to get the most out of Salsa?

* I will obviously slow down the classes at some point but am LOVING it now so going with it :)
I have never quit anything in my life and repetition does not bother me.

thanks everyone and happy dancing!
Click to expand...

great post, thanks! So much to absord :)
 
This thread had turned out to be a wealth of info for all :D !!!

Just to throw in another angle: If I had a time machine, I'd tell myself to relax, enjoy the journey, and just dance!!!

I'd also pass on what I learnt (and still learning) about achieving a balance between your love life & salsa life. It's tricky.
 
There's some REALLY good advice in this thread.

For me, I'd probably tell myself to do just as I did coz for me, it's worked out really well. For my first two months salsa I'd never even heard of the concept of leading and following - I just went to classes and was taught moves. There'd used to be a bit of conflict when I thought I was supposed to move our hands one way and the lady thought we were supposed to be doing something else, but she'd never been taught about following so no hard feelings. Then when I went to a different class and learnt I was supposed to be leading the ladies, I already had a good command of the basics (and had been subconciously leading "lesser" dancers anyway so it seemed to fit right in for me). Then I found the social salsa scene and learnt that ladies like a bloke that can lead. My mission;- learn to lead and lead well!
Buying some music and playing it continuously (and I mean continuously) really helped but this has all been said already.
My advice?
1. If you're serious about dancing, re-organise your life so you can get out of absolutes and do another class, or find another class elsewhere.
2. If you're enjoying it as you are - why fix it when it ain't broken?
 
smiling28 said:
basic step forward and backward (closed)
exhibe (spin girl)
Darme (pass girl onto new partner)
Click to expand...

Can I just ask - are you just learning Rueda at classes (the style where partners are passed round a circle) or are you learning to dance as a single couple too? (single couple? - well, I know what I mean, even if no one else does)
 
KP-salsa said:
smiling28 said:
basic step forward and backward (closed)
exhibe (spin girl)
Darme (pass girl onto new partner)
Click to expand...

Can I just ask - are you just learning Rueda at classes (the style where partners are passed round a circle) or are you learning to dance as a single couple too? (single couple? - well, I know what I mean, even if no one else does)
Click to expand...

single couple and rueda.


Rueda when there is a caller is pretty advanced where I am. When my friend gets me into it, I dance with her doing my best then once we change partners then I just do the basic step, smile, explain I am a beginner and do my best to follow the caller :)

When all else fails, I just do the basic step :)

I like the basic step :) :) :)
 
I would tell myself to get dancing sooner :) I wish I'd taken it up at university!

Like AndrewD I'm very happy with my journey. I've pretty much done most of the things people have suggested.

One piece of advice that I try and apply to everything I do (which was given to me by a good friend):

Most people don't want to get as good as you do. Consequently many people believe that you have the same expectations as them. Sometimes you have to let people know your expectations.

As a non-dancing example, my various managers at work never actually considered that I would want to do a job more senior than theirs, until I told them.

In dancing this can be as simple as "This move doesn't feel right... do you know what I am doing wrong?" (sometimes I get "*shrug*", other times I will get a big smile and a "Ohh, you're just letting the momentum dissapear, so I step X instead of Y").

Let your teacher know that you want to get the basics down, and that you really want to get it right from the start. In my experience you are unlikely to hear constructive criticism in anything below advanced/intermediate classes because not everyone wants it, and the last thing the teacher wants to do is chase students away with criticism. This would be a good reason to do a private too.

Finally, I came from a martial arts background too. I found that I had a lot less to worry about in terms of posture, balance, co-ordination, pressure, feeling when a move didn't flow. So don't be afraid of moving up from beginners/improvers earlier once you have the basics. You'll probably be surprised that it will only take 2-3 classes at the higher level before you can do the sequences.
 
Swannie said:
In my experience you are unlikely to hear constructive criticism in anything below advanced/intermediate classes because not everyone wants it, and the last thing the teacher wants to do is chase students away with criticism.
Click to expand...

how interesting! Now I think back, this was my experience too... the majority of "beginner" classes are really lightweight "this is a bit like what salsa looks like" classes... I was very lucky that I didn't have to shop around very much till I found a teacher who was much more earnest than most, whose classes were not in nightclubs and weren't just about adding a latin theme to a drinking night!
 
Swannie said:
In my experience you are unlikely to hear constructive criticism in anything below advanced/intermediate classes because not everyone wants it, and the last thing the teacher wants to do is chase students away with criticism. This would be a good reason to do a private too.
Click to expand...
Have we been doing it wrong all this time?
We have absolutely NO problem at all with offering constructive criticism right from our students' first lesson. I mean don't get me wrong, we do go a long way to ensure that the criticism (I prefer to call it guidance) we offer IS constructive and isn't personal and in most cases, where possible, when we see things we need to mention, we address our comments to the class, not to the individual. If we've lost people through attempting to teach our students how to dance well, then we figure, heck, so be it. This way we can spend more time with the dancers that really do want to improve.
Now, what was the question again?
 
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