What would it take for salsa to have a revival?

[rheemixed]

Regarding the current topic in this thread: does playing a salsa song at the Superbowl halftime show have much effect on the growth/decline/ evolution of salsa?

Hard to say but I would guess no. People who are adults and are or would be new to salsa are going to have music preferences already. If salsa is not their current preference, why would that change because of one 13 min show on tv?

As to the effect on people who already like salsa music and dance to it or for whom salsa is part of the culture? It is kind of a validation to see the music one likes, dances to, or is a part of culturally to be performed in the mainstream. It does not get more mainstream than the Superbowl. The show does not have to be good. The song does not have to be good. That is not important. What is important is that others notice that this is part of a culture not just mere entertainment.

Well a lot of people in their early 20s aren't necessarily set in their ways. That is a pretty significant part of Bad Bunny's fanbase, and an age demographic that salsa has struggled to recruit from in recent years.

Even later on when you're older... I didn't really consider or listen to salsa as a genre until social media randomly recommended back to back videos of ETJr dancing w/ Veronica Lopez to Regresa by Alvaro del Castillo, and then Milton Cobo dancing with Isabel Freiberger to Via by Al De Lory. I was in my 30s when that happened. That's all it took for me - two back to back videos and I was hooked on the music, and started taking classes a couple weeks later.

 

[MamboCha]

I was an adult when I heard the first time salsa music, it was when the movie 'Buena Vista Social Club' came out. At this time I didn't even know there is a dance connected to it, although I even travelled to Cuba because the movie made me interested in seeing Cuby myself. I loved the music so much and started to listen to some other salsa artists like Celia Cruz. In the meantime I learned that there is dance called Salsa, but had no idea how it looks like. Once I saw the dance and the music I knew immediately this is what I wanted to learn. There are probably more people like me.

Indeed there are! Happened to walk by a boutique theater with their posters out front and had time to burn. Then came out straight to store and grabbed that double cd set. My music taste was wide, from symphony to opera to jazz to new age to world, while my buddy was hard rock and nothing else. Yer we were intoxicated by the sounds of those old masters. Let's go to Cuba, he said. Few weeks later and he declared, with that Caribbean glow still on his face, Cuba was awesome! Perfect timing for him, literally between jobs.

But the salsa music flood gate was cracked wide open and we traded tips and bought more cds from related artists. Gate was then widened into broader Latin music w its subgenres.

Salsa the dance came decade later, as always thought that was a grandma/living room dance, not a learned dance like waltz or tango.

So with the world wide exposure in both the music and dance all at once, surely there will be at least some wide eye watchers inspired enough to want to learn more. Streaming services should see nice bumps. Dances schools hopefully too. If not, then it's truly bleak, as couldn't imagine what else moves on such scale.

Problem is salsa the dance! Beginner Hell is still as murderous as before, since teaching community as a whole has done hardly anything to make it easier. So, schools might see some upticks, how many will graduate into social dancers, that's the Q.

 

[Offbeat]

Well a lot of people in their early 20s aren't necessarily set in their ways. That is a pretty significant part of Bad Bunny's fanbase, and an age demographic that salsa has struggled to recruit from in recent years.

People’s tastes in food and music are formed by time they are in their 20s. Once there was a radio program on that because there was research to back it up. If you want to bleed l know someone’s are, ask what is their fav music.

That doesn’t mean there can’t be acquired taste. Sushi for example. Most don’t grow up eating raw fish.

Outside of Latin America, salsa music is really a niche. Far fewer people dance than listen. Any revival would mean revival amongst Latin Americans where reggaetone still rules. Dancing salsa requires learning some skills. Among non-Latin Americans, both the music age dancing is what - 10,000 to 15,000 people world wide? Millions non-Koreans follow k-pop.

Even later on when you're older... I didn't really consider or listen to salsa as a genre until social media randomly recommended back to back videos of ETJr dancing w/ Veronica Lopez to Regresa by Alvaro del Castillo, and then Milton Cobo dancing with Isabel Freiberger to Via by Al De Lory. I was in my 30s when that happened. That's all it took for me - two back to back videos and I was hooked on the music, and started taking classes a couple weeks later.

More people drop out of salsa after one month than continue. The ratio was almost 30 to 1 when I stared. That’s based on 100+ people showing up for free salsa lessons in the club before dancing started. This is when salsa was at its peak. There was no competing bachata, kizomba, zouk, etc.

Many people on the forums started salsa in 30s and 40s. So what? Also most stop after 5 to 10 years.

 

[Offbeat]

So with the world wide exposure in both the music and dance all at once, surely there will be at least some wide eye watchers inspired enough to want to learn more. Streaming services should see nice bumps. Dances schools hopefully too. If not, then it's truly bleak, as couldn't imagine what else moves on such scale.

Problem is salsa the dance! Beginner Hell is still as murderous as before, since teaching community as a whole has done hardly anything to make it easier. So, schools might see some upticks, how many will graduate into social dancers, that's the Q.

If you want to know the future look at the past.

 

[rheemixed]

People’s tastes in food and music are formed by time they are in their 20s. Once there was a radio program on that because there was research to back it up. If you want to bleed l know someone’s are, ask what is their fav music.

That doesn’t mean there can’t be acquired taste. Sushi for example. Most don’t grow up eating raw fish.

Outside of Latin America, salsa music is really a niche. Far fewer people dance than listen. Any revival would mean revival amongst Latin Americans where reggaetone still rules. Dancing salsa requires learning some skills. Among non-Latin Americans, both the music age dancing is what - 10,000 to 15,000 people world wide? Millions non-Koreans follow k-pop.


More people drop out of salsa after one month than continue. The ratio was almost 30 to 1 when I stared. That’s based on 100+ people showing up for free salsa lessons in the club before dancing started. This is when salsa was at its peak. There was no competing bachata, kizomba, zouk, etc.

Many people on the forums started salsa in 30s and 40s. So what? Also most stop after 5 to 10 years.

Sure, the attrition rate is high in Salsa. One way to fix that is to make the barrier to entry (beginner's hell) easier in some manner, but not sure how.

Other way to fix that is to just increase the interest in it so much that a bunch of people manage it to make it past the attrition stage, which is what I'm hoping will happen with the recent mainstream exposure.

I'm hopeful man!

I was reading some of the earlier posts on this thread, and it seems a lot of people would prefer a more concentrated and dedicated salsa scene, even if that means the scene is smaller, but for me personally, I'd rather have a larger scene, even if it is more diluted. I think that's better for the long term growth of the scene, and there will be room for more dedicated salsa purists in that sort of scene too. I just remember a few years ago, it felt like I would dance with the same 20-30 people every week, week after week. And when a single person left the scene (injury, life/kids, moving for work), it could have a huge impact on scene dynamics. A larger scene is more resilient to those types of effects.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I was reading some of the earlier posts on this thread, and it seems a lot of people would prefer a more concentrated and dedicated salsa scene, even if that means the scene is smaller, but for me personally,

For me personally, I would prefer a dedicated Salsa scene, however with a continuous flow of new students coming through the ranks.

The irony of it is that you need lots of people to feed the attrition rate. But a dedicated scene doesn't necessarily mean small. It just means having a consistent schedule of events throughout the week. These days it seems like having a pure Salsa event is financially risky so the only way to combat that is to have mixed events or multiple rooms.

But I would instead try to keep the scene 'focused' by only having Salsa music playing at some events, so those coming know that they are getting Salsa and only Salsa.

That is what I would consider 'dedicated' and 'concentrated'.

 

[Offbeat]

Sure, the attrition rate is high in Salsa. One way to fix that is to make the barrier to entry (beginner's hell) easier in some manner, but not sure how.

Not only salsa. All social dances struggle with it. No one has found a solution. Beginner’s hell is real and only option is below:

Other way to fix that is to just increase the interest in it so much that a bunch of people manage it to make it past the attrition stage,

This how salsa was growing locally when I started. There were multiple clubs having salsa nights with free lessons on the weekdays. People could hear the music, walk in off the street, take a peek, and try to join the lesson. It requires several local clubs with big enough space to have salsa nights on slow weekdays. The formula worked for 15 years. Then gentrification took over.

It was easily accessible activity. Always there.

If you have a non-club owner host/organizer trying to make profit out of it, that hardly ever works. Instructors and DJs usually make worst host. Ninety percent of events started by then shut down with in six months.

I'm hopeful man!

I was going to say you are being very optimistic but the reality is younger folks are not attracted to social dancing. If social dancing is seen as cool, it will drives thousands to join.

I think that's better for the long term growth of the scene, and there will be room for more dedicated salsa purists in that sort of scene too.

Larger is always better for attracting new dancers. If you have spaces that can host salsa and attract a lot of people, it will increase the numbers trying to dance.

Dedicated and purist events are for longer time purists. Within a large scene having dedicated socials/parties can be healthy. The new dancers don’t feel intimidated by hardcore dancers when there is diluted large scene.

 

[bailar y tocar]

If you have a non-club owner host/organizer trying to make profit out of it, that hardly ever works. Instructors and DJs usually make worst host. Ninety percent of events started by then shut down within six months.

In my experience that depends on the city and the underlying culture that supports salsa in that city.

Totally agree with you for a city-metro like Minneapolis where the Latino population is very small and the Latinos that do live there are mostly not from salsa countries.

By contrast, Chicago and south Florida where the Latino population is large and many have a heritage or have come directly from salsa countries, the events do much better. I know of socials that have lasted for 10-20 years and are still going strong. South Florida is a bit of an exception anyways as the population as a whole is about 60-70% Latino (or at least it seems that way in public spaces).

 

[bailar y tocar]

By contrast, Chicago and south Florida where the Latino population is large and many have a heritage or have come directly from salsa countries, the events do much better. I know of socials that have lasted for 10-20 years and are still going strong. South Florida is a bit of an exception anyways as the population as a whole is about 60-70% Latino (or at least it seems that way in public spaces).

Add: In Chicago there is an outsized impact due to the Chicago Intl Salsa Congress.
The congress is performance focused and the vast majority of performers are kids and teenagers from youth teams in the city. There were about 70 different performance teams just from Chicago. I would guess 75% of those were kids or teenager teams from cultural organizations or high schools. Eventually these kids and teenagers grow up and some join adult performance teams whereas others continue social dancing only.

Afaik only Cali Colombia has more youth dancing salsa than Chicago.
Obviously if one goes out social dancing in the scene, one would not meet any teenagers or kids at the venues that serve alcohol or at events that run very late.

 

[rheemixed]

If you have a non-club owner host/organizer trying to make profit out of it, that hardly ever works. Instructors and DJs usually make worst host. Ninety percent of events started by then shut down with in six months.

I'm not sure I would agree with this completely. At least in my region, there are many events I can think of running for years that are highly successful.

From what I understand they aren't in it for profit though, they're in it for the love of it. So that probably helps a lot.

 

[eclo]

See on one level I agree we need to get more people in, on another I've seen how SBK has decimated the salsa scene so I'm cautious about diluting too much! I think we need balance.

At the moment my scene is out of whack because there's enough at the diluted end to draw people in, but there is no depth beyond that so the scene doesn't grow and stays at a very basic level. Experienced dancers drift away because there is nothing of any real quality or substance that makes it worth sticking around.

 

[MamboCha]

Indeed! Sadly such self destructive paradox is everywhere nowaday...

 

[TurqoiseHexagon]

See on one level I agree we need to get more people in, on another I've seen how SBK has decimated the salsa scene so I'm cautious about diluting too much! I think we need balance.

At the moment my scene is out of whack because there's enough at the diluted end to draw people in, but there is no depth beyond that so the scene doesn't grow and stays at a very basic level. Experienced dancers drift away because there is nothing of any real quality or substance that makes it worth sticking around.

SBK's didn't decimate Salsa. Salsa decimated salsa.......

 

[Offbeat]

From what I understand they aren't in it for profit though, they're in it for the love of it. So that probably helps a lot.

I was excluding that. I thought it was implied. Was going to do a follow up post but SF was very slow that day.

When profit is not a motive, generally the product ( salsa social/party) is good. Unless the organizers are inept despite good intentions. It takes skill to organize.

Locally we have very good track record of socials organized by the dancers and profit is not a motive. Good music, good vibes, not much to complain. You can read about it in the older posts.

Bringing new people in to salsa is a whole different effort. It also has to be done consistently. Locally, I am not sure that bachata and other dances are causing people not to take up salsa. Bachata did become popular. Not so popular that I will say it affected the local salsa scene.

 

[Offbeat]

SBK's didn't decimate Salsa. Salsa decimated salsa.......

I agree. It is salsa instructors who jumped on the bachata. It was a shiny new thing which they thought would allow them to make more money. The Kizomba part I am not sure how it got included as part of salsa crowd. Kizomba is its own little niche scene. It also seems to have lost its appeal and survives as a niche community. I may be wrong, but I haven’t seen it growing like bachata.

 

[MamboJazz]

Salsa is mostly a fast dance, and in the 2010s many dancers told me it's too fast for them and so they switched to slower bachata / kizomba, where they often stand still and don't even move their legs anymore. The music taste in general was in favor for slower music the last years. The same in WCS, the music they dance to has strongly slowed down compared to videos from the 90s. Even in salsa we had the EU on2 movement preferring slower moves to slower music.

So for making salsa attractive again you need people liking faster music and dancing faster again. There is a chance because after many years of preference of slow dancing / slow music the preference might change again. But fashions are hard to predict.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I agree. It is salsa instructors who jumped on the bachata. It was a shiny new thing which they thought would allow them to make more money. The Kizomba part I am not sure how it got included as part of salsa crowd. Kizomba is its own little niche scene. It also seems to have lost its appeal and survives as a niche community. I may be wrong, but I haven’t seen it growing like bachata.

I agree that instructors who jumped on the sensual bandwagon contributed to the decline of Salsa dancing worldwide. Most teachers are in it to make a living, so naturally they need to jump on the bandwagon to sustain themselves. Nothing wrong with that. Although I still think there are some teachers who were pressured into it. The thing I'm not sure about is where this love fest with sensual started.

When I think about it, it's the dancers themselves who are to blame. Dancers flip flop. It happens all the time with alarming frequency. Nowadays there are just more options to flip flop away from Salsa.

But when you look at the musical side, how many Salsa bands woke up one day and said "Hey, f*ck this $hit, let's produce a Bachata sensual album!" Are there any?

So when people say "Salsa decimated Salsa", who exactly are we talking about?

Dancers do this flip flopping all the time. They flip flop and grab onto trends. They don't have much to lose by switching sides. On the contrary, they have everything to gain - More dances. More popularity. More attention. More teaching opportuntities. The list goes on and on. Their initial investment in Salsa is low, which makes flip flopping an everpresent threat.

SBK may not have decimated Salsa, but the reason for its continued existence further encourages this nonsense.

 

[Offbeat]

I agree that instructors who jumped on the bachata bandwagon contributed to the decline of Salsa dancing worldwide.

When I think about it, it's the dancers themselves who are to blame. Dancers flip flop. It happens all the time with alarming frequency. Nowadays there are just more options to flip flop away from Salsa.

But when you look at the musical side, how many Salsa bands woke up one day and said "Hey, f*ck this $hit, let's produce a Bachata sensual album?" Are there any?

So when people say "Salsa decimated Salsa", who exactly are we talking about?

Dancers do this flip flopping all the time. They flip flop and grab onto trends. They don't have much to lose by switching sides. On the contrary, they have everything to gain - More dances. More popularity. More attention. More teaching opportuntities. The list goes on and on. Their initial investment in Salsa is low, which makes flip flopping an everpresent threat.

SBK may not have decimated Salsa, but the reason for its continued existence further encourages this nonsense.

I think we need to separate the trends in music with the trends in dancing. They happen independent of each other. The audience and consumers for the music is many times larger than for the dance.

Yes dancers will catch on to the latest music being produced. But the music is not produced so that dancers will popularize it. Dancers have negligible effect on how the music trends evolve. Dancing is more reactive to where the music is going.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Yes dancers will catch on to the latest music being produced. But the music is not produced so that dancers will popularize it. Dancers have negligible effect on how the music trends evolve. Dancing is more reactive to where the music is going.

But dancers are still choosing what to dance to. Maybe they think Salsa is too upbeat, too fast, and too polyrhythmic to make sense of. Does that mean Salsa decimated itself by not dumbing itself down enough to appeal to a wider audience?

Those who didn't already love Salsa (which is most dancers in the scene currently) will flip flop eventually to an easier dance with a more accessible rhythm. Or to get more dances and satisfy their ego.

For all intents and purposes, I should flip flip as well to Sensual, but I'm way too invested in Salsa to switch now. And too old apparently.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

think we need to separate the trends in music with the trends in dancing. They happen independent of each other. The audience and consumers for the music is many times larger than for the dance.

I have no idea if the popularity of Salsa music is on the decline or not. That could be a separate discussion. I have a feeling that Salsa music will always be with us and am not overly concerned about it.

Since I'm a dancer, my concern is whether or not dancers are dancing Salsa. And it seems like they are not.