What would it take for salsa to have a revival?

[Winston]

The strange thing in my scene is that dances like Zouk seem to be attracting more new and experienced dancers than Linear Salsa. I don’t consider Zouk any easier than Salsa.

Zouk is another niche dance with a very small community, yet I see promotion for their classes and their socials far more frequently than I do Salsa socials (since we have none anyway).

I agree. To name a few advantages zouk has above salsa:

There's no divide like in linear salsa. Well, there is a divide in brazilian zouk and zouk lambada. But generally people just dance brazilian zouk. And not either of one is considered for better zouk dancers, like on2 is for better salsa dancers.

Zouk music sounds more contemporary than salsa music.

The better salsa music tracks and the better zouk music tracks are on par with each other.
But a bad salsa track always sounds worse than a bad zouk track (so dj's, pay attention).

Salsa beginner lessons are harder than zouk beginner lessons. Generally salsa gets easier over time (unless you want to learn crazy, fast pretzel turns), while zouk one can choose to keep learning to learn more or get better with what you already can do.
That gives an extra incentive to find new people to try these more advance moves. So this community will do more promotion.
That said, there was a time when zouk became to hard to learn, and a drop in the scene became inevitable. Also kizomba took some zouk dancers away.

 

[Winston]

Generally zouk is slower, so you can dance more.
Salsa is faster, so you'll sit more unless you got great stamina.
And I think people would like choose to dance more.

 

[DJ Yuca]

The better salsa music tracks and the better zouk music tracks are on par with each other.
But a bad salsa track always sounds worse than a bad zouk track (so dj's, pay attention).

Seriously? I've hardly heard any zouk music and what I have heard has been totally forgettable. Perhaps you could name some classic tracks that can compare to classic salsa/mambo.

And if zouk is comparable musically to salsa, why has it had such little impact? Anyone who isn't Latin American and has had no contact with the salsa scene but is seriously into music will have heard of salsa and know a few names and tracks. Have any zouk tracks had any worldwide impact? Do any get used in films etc?

Also I'd be interested to hear some examples of what you consider to be bad salsa tracks.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Zouk music sounds more contemporary than salsa music.

That's a commercial advantage because so many people want to follow fashion, however a lot of people believe that, objectively speaking, the music of today is nowhere near as good as that of last century. So in terms of actual quality, the above is a disadvantage.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Generally zouk is slower, so you can dance more.
Salsa is faster, so you'll sit more unless you got great stamina.
And I think people would like choose to dance more.

Salsa comes in slow, medium and fast. Linear (particularly on 2) is perfect for many very good slow tracks.

 

[xoc123]

And if zouk is comparable musically to salsa, why has it had such little impact? Anyone who isn't Latin American and has had no contact with the salsa scene but is seriously into music will have heard of salsa and know a few names and tracks. Have any zouk tracks had any worldwide impact? Do any get used in films etc?

If you are talking about Brazilian Zouk, it is being adapted to dance with any type of music with Tresillo beats or the modern 4x beats, it is no longer attached to "Zouk" music. The DJ plays whatever he/she makes and the crowd wants to hear (usually R&B stuff the new generation has been listening to in the last decade), or even Kizomba mixes - in which case it is similar to the (urban) Kiz scene where the music is made for dancing instead of the dancing for a particular type of music.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

From what I've heard from watching videos of Zouk, the music is so varied does it even have its own identity? I've seen people dance it to everything from Trance to Hip Hop.

 

[rheemixed]

The strange thing in my scene is that dances like Zouk seem to be attracting more new and experienced dancers than Linear Salsa. I don’t consider Zouk any easier than Salsa.

Zouk is another niche dance with a very small community, yet I see promotion for their classes and their socials far more frequently than I do Salsa socials (since we have none anyway).

The Salsa community here doesn’t advertise for Salsa as much. The only promotion I see is for Ladies Styling classes, which does attract people but it’s pointless for building the social dancing community.

It’s almost impossible to convince experienced dancers from other scenes (Bachata, Kizomba, Zouk, Cuban Salsa) to take up Linear Salsa. I see many cross-dancers trying new dances all the time but they inevitably give up on Salsa.

Something about Salsa here is driving people away and instead people are flocking to other dances. Doesn’t matter if they are new dancers or dancers of other styles who are looking to try something new.

I also get the feeling that people here have this romanticized idea of Salsa being strictly Cuban and anything that doesn’t fit that mold isn’t worth pursuing.

I tried zouk very briefly for a month. Was very much a struggle for me. The whole idea of tilted axis stuff goes over my head.

With that said, I do think to a casual viewer, zouk looks much easier than salsa does. The music is far more approachable, and, again, to the casual viewer, the moves look far less physically and technically demanding, even though I'd argue from my brief zouk experience, it isn't easier, just different.

Also at least from my limited experience, the zouk community is less clique-ish and has less drama than the salsa community. I feel like there are a lot more haters, a lot more elitism, a lot more people who are full of themselves, and so on in salsa. A part of that is probably because the scene is much larger and more developed than zouk perhaps? But maybe there are some fundamental reasons for that as well with salsa.

For example if you go to any zouk social as a first timer by yourself, I feel like people will walk up to you, ask who you are, be proactive in asking if you want to practice, etc. and you're unlikely to get turned down for a dance, whereas in salsa if you go to most higher level socials as a day 1 beginner, unless you're a hot girl, you will struggle to find people to talk to and dance with unless you are making the effort to be very social, and even then if you're a beginner lead, you will get turned down semi-often.

 

[rheemixed]

I would do this for $50-$75 per night, but anything over that is too much. Ideally, I would have other business to conclude in the city I’m staying overnight. Best case is I could crash on a friend’s couch.

But you’re right. A shower and 5 hours of sleep for $200 is a stretch. I have resorted to commuting back the same night, which puts a strain on my sleeping schedule but is better than shelling out for an expensive hotel room.

I can't stand either sitting on a train or driving a car for long periods of time after sweating profusely thru all my clothes after a night of social dancing unfortunately.

Which is why I also looked at the Planet Fitness gym membership, but that just wasn't feasible.

 

[MamboJazz]

I can't stand either sitting on a train or driving a car for long periods of time after sweating profusely thru all my clothes after a night of social dancing unfortunately.

Bring clothes in your bag to change afterwards. I even change my underpants when too sweated. T-Shirt, underpants and small towel weigh near to nothing. Sometimes I even bring trousers to change afterwards.

 

[MamboJazz]

For example if you go to any zouk social as a first timer by yourself, I feel like people will walk up to you, ask who you are, be proactive in asking if you want to practice, etc. and you're unlikely to get turned down for a dance

Really? Sounds like heaven. It's true, in salsa nobody ever gives a damn to somebody new (unless you're a hot girl as you said already). I like to experience new scenes, so I know that very well. Probably that's because the zouk scene is so small that they try to catch anyone coming to them. If it would grow bigger that would change maybe.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

With that said, I do think to a casual viewer, zouk looks much easier than salsa does. The music is far more approachable, and, again, to the casual viewer, the moves look far less physically and technically demanding, even though I'd argue from my brief zouk experience, it isn't easier, just different

I would also add “close quarters sensual touching” to that list.

My idea is that this new age ghetto Zouk is what would pop out if WCS hooked up with BS and had an illegitimate child.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Because people in Europe just don't have a taste for Salsa music

This is certainly the case in the UK. Even when the scene was loads bigger, and even today with those who haven't defected from salsa, somehow it's very unusual for dancers to have any interest in the music they spend years of their life dancing to. I'm not talking about becoming trainspotters, just knowing a little about salsa music and, more importantly, actually giving a sh!t whether or not the music that gets played is total garbage.

 

[DJ Yuca]

But why do you view Cuban stuff so far from linear salsa?

Just because the music at most Cuban style events is so far removed from what most salsa music lovers enjoy listening and dancing to.

In terms of the scene, I think it needs passionate good professionals promoting and building the scene with passion (in contrast to promotors who just do it for money), the kind of people who the students admire and follow.

Exactly. When promoters and instructors make it clear they don't actually like salsa music much they attract similar students and deter those who potentially could like the music from joining the scene. The result is a scene with weak foundations that can crumble overnight. As happened in the UK a few years ago. (It happened worldwide to a certain extent, but was more pronounced in the UK.)

 

[bailar y tocar]

I think both NYC and DC draw people away from Philly - both cities are about 1.5-2hrs away. From what I understand, Baltimore's scene is pretty small too, probably sucked dry by DC I'd imagine. Also this happened before I started dancing, but I heard the majority of Philly based studios moved out into the burbs or South Jersey somewhere between 5-10 years ago due to rising rents, spreading out the scene geographically.

I used to go up to NYC much more often, but these days all the friends I used to crash with are married w/ kids, and I don't really want to spend $200-300 on a hotel to go social dancing, just so I have a shower I can use and a bed to get 5 hours of sleep in.

Actually thought about getting a $10/mo Planet Fitness membership at the location right near Penn Station so I could use their shower before jumping on a late-night train, but they require damn near a credit check to apply for membership.

In the Midwest a 1-1.5 hour commute to dance salsa at a good location would not be unusual because everything is so spread out anyways. In the Chicago metro it can take more than 1.5 to 2 hours to reach downtown from outlying areas in the far north, far south or the western suburbs. Back in the day before the dance venues started to pop up in the suburbs, people like me made those trips on a regular basis. Back then I was working in a far north suburb which is located near the Wisconsin border and drove to downtown every Wednesday after work to dance salsa. I lived in a northwest suburb near O'Hare airport and had to quit early at around 10-10:30pm so I could get up at 7am and drive 45 min to work in the morning. Fortunately the club had an early start format. They had a lesson at 6pm and started up full at 7pm.

Soooo.
This is another key point that came up a lot in discussions in all of the salsa scenes I have been in.
START TIMES!!!!

In most salsa scenes the dancing starts at 10pm at the earliest. Most working people who would have to drive 45 min to an hour to dance would not be able to do that if their job is only moderately challenging and requires showing up at an office. The "matinee" socials were always popular with dancers but never popular with clubs or promoters. I do understand that dance studios cannot do that as they have lessons in their space at those early evening hours.

A 6-10pm time for a salsa social might be very attractive for people who have to go to work the next day.

 

[MamboJazz]

This is another key point that came up a lot in discussions in all of the salsa scenes I have been in.
START TIMES!!!!

In most salsa scenes the dancing starts at 10pm at the earliest. Most working people who would have to drive 45 min to an hour to dance would not be able to do that if their job is only moderately challenging and requires showing up at an office. The "matinee" socials were always popular with dancers but never popular with clubs or promoters. I do understand that dance studios cannot do that as they have lessons in their space at those early evening hours.

A 6-10pm time for a salsa social might be very attractive for people who have to go to work the next day.

I agree. Berlin Salsa Congress since last year ends all of his nights at 2 a.m. with your argument, trying to make a difference in the scene. For me late openings at week-ends are always a problem because after midnight public transport home becomes difficult.

That said start times are not different for other dances who are more in fashion. But fashion dances cater to youngsters, and youngsters often don't give a damn or don't need to work the other day.

 

[rheemixed]

Bring clothes in your bag to change afterwards. I even change my underpants when too sweated. T-Shirt, underpants and small towel weigh near to nothing. Sometimes I even bring trousers to change afterwards.

Well until I'm cooled down all the way, if I change clothes, I just end up soaking those too. So usually I do change clothes, but wait til I'm cooled off. However, by then I'm already on the Amtrak back home, and those train bathrooms are... not always ideal. Best solution is a shower, but I have no convenient access to one if I'm only coming up to NYC to social dance.

In the Midwest a 1-1.5 hour commute to dance salsa at a good location would not be unusual because everything is so spread out anyways. In the Chicago metro it can take more than 1.5 to 2 hours to reach downtown from outlying areas in the far north, far south or the western suburbs. Back in the day before the dance venues started to pop up in the suburbs, people like me made those trips on a regular basis. Back then I was working in a far north suburb which is located near the Wisconsin border and drove to downtown every Wednesday after work to dance salsa. I lived in a northwest suburb near O'Hare airport and had to quit early at around 10-10:30pm so I could get up at 7am and drive 45 min to work in the morning. Fortunately the club had an early start format. They had a lesson at 6pm and started up full at 7pm.

Soooo.
This is another key point that came up a lot in discussions in all of the salsa scenes I have been in.
START TIMES!!!!

In most salsa scenes the dancing starts at 10pm at the earliest. Most working people who would have to drive 45 min to an hour to dance would not be able to do that if their job is only moderately challenging and requires showing up at an office. The "matinee" socials were always popular with dancers but never popular with clubs or promoters. I do understand that dance studios cannot do that as they have lessons in their space at those early evening hours.

A 6-10pm time for a salsa social might be very attractive for people who have to go to work the next day.

Regarding start times, I know there have been some efforts in Philly to hold events at a more reasonable hour, but from what I understand, those don't do too well either usually, unless its a really nice venue.

For example there's an event on Wednesdays at a venue called Brasil's here in Philly that starts too late for me to ever attend. I hear it is very popular though. I asked someone who was doing the pre-social lesson why they start so late, and she said one time they tried to hold the event earlier at 8pm, but nobody showed up until 10-11pm anyways, so they decided to not do that again.

There's a rooftop bar event that happens once a month in the summer and starts at 6pm that does pretty well, but I think the venue is a large part of the draw.

 

[eclo]

London has some good & very well attended ‘matinee’ socials, Supermario, I like it like that & Revolution.
JuJus Cuban Sundays finished about 11pm too. But London is oddly really not much of a late night city these days, not compared to other UK cities anyway.

 

[UnknownUser]

Seriously? I've hardly heard any zouk music and what I have heard has been totally forgettable. Perhaps you could name some classic tracks that can compare to classic salsa/mambo.

And if zouk is comparable musically to salsa, why has it had such little impact? Anyone who isn't Latin American and has had no contact with the salsa scene but is seriously into music will have heard of salsa and know a few names and tracks. Have any zouk tracks had any worldwide impact? Do any get used in films etc?

Also I'd be interested to hear some examples of what you consider to be bad salsa tracks.

The dance does.not.look bad when seen without music. But the music is pretty much Elevator music. Seems a Bit Like WCS where the dance Looks good and it can even be danced to pretty much any music, but they choose the Most boring Elevator music they can find

Think one of the Problem of Salsa is the crowd it's marketed to. Most Latin dance seems to BE marketed towards the R&B Pop crowd and this works for Bachata. But the Energy Level of Salsa is more Hard Rock like.

 

[noobster]

Regarding start times, I know there have been some efforts in Philly to hold events at a more reasonable hour, but from what I understand, those don't do too well either usually, unless its a really nice venue.

For example there's an event on Wednesdays at a venue called Brasil's here in Philly that starts too late for me to ever attend. I hear it is very popular though. I asked someone who was doing the pre-social lesson why they start so late, and she said one time they tried to hold the event earlier at 8pm, but nobody showed up until 10-11pm anyways, so they decided to not do that again.

I think this is related to self-perpetuating expectations.

IME, the better dancers show up late because they know that late is when they can expect to find other good dancers. They don't want to slog through 2-3 hours of beginner partners. Earlier nights (e.g., LVG in NYC) can do well when there is an established understanding that good dancers will attend.

I think it would take a really good, well connected promoter to start a new one of these early nights. There are lots of terrible salsa events out there and it's hard to get a critical mass of dancers to come out for a venue without an established rep. It's just not worth the evening if it's going to be ten beginners clutching drinks and marching to some lame Paulina Rubio remix.